What's wrong with Palmyra

[richvh]

Well, first of all, its sole duchy is the Duchy of Aleppo (which is a 6 county duchy, but Palmyra isn't the only 1 duchy, 6 county kingdom), and Aleppo isn't even in the duchy... it's a barony in Beroea.
As far as it's counties go... Epiphania and Hama have the exact same baronies (by name, not by tag), as do Asas and Chmemis. For that matter, Epiphania is just an alternate name for Hama (with Epiphania being the province that's in the right place), I can find no indication in Wikipedia or Google Maps that Asas is even a place, and Chmemis is a castle that ought to be located within our province of Epiphania. Then there's Palmyra... the province with that name is literally smack dab in the middle of the Syrian desert with no settlements at all if you check Google Maps, and Palmyra itself ought to be located in our Hama province. I'd rename the duchy to Palmyra, rename the county of Hama to Palmyra, rename Epiphania to Hama with a cultural title of Epiphania, rename Chmemis to Raqqah with a cultural title of Kallinikos, combine Palmyra with Asas and rename to um... Al Kawm? Hard to find towns around there with Wikipedia articles.

As for baronies... Emesa has Homs, Emesa (another name for Homs), Zweitina (which seems to be located in our province of Thapsacus), al-Khazandar (a wadi where the 3rd Battle of Homs occured), Qadesh, Sadad, Marmarita (which again appears to be in Thapsacus) and Qatna. Since the province has max 5 settlements, I'd trim down the list to Homs/Emesa (using Emesa as a cultural title for the province and barony, with Homs the principal name), al-Khazandar, Qadesh, Sadad and Qatna.

Epiphania/Hama has Hama, Mhardeh, Hamath (another alternate name for Hama), Qarqar (an ancient battle site, identified with modern Qarqur which I'd place in our Thapsacus), Bara, Salamiyah. Serjillah and Kharsan. I'd trim down to Hama (cultural title Epiphania), Bara, Salamiyah, Serjilah and Kharsan.

Chmemis/Asas has Asas (as I said before, can't find a settlement by that name), Rakka, Kallinikos (an alternate name for Rakka), Tal Abyad/Talabyad (probably should be in our Hellenopois), Tabqa (dam site, no ref in Wikipedia to an ancient settlement), Souriya (can't find anywhere of that name anywhere near Syria), Resafa and Zaazoûaa (mentioned in Wikipedia as a tiny village north or Rakka; can't find on Google Maps but map position in Wikipedia puts it in our Hellenopolis). I'd trim down to Rakka (cultural title Kallinikos), Tabqa, Resafa. Not finding more settlements in the area with Wikipedia articles, I'd round it out with Jazrah and Hamat.

Palmyra has Husaiba (seems to be in Bagdad), Bukamal (Dura-Europos, near border with As Saffah), Al-Qa'im (As Saffah, near border with Dura-Europos), Salhiyah (probably in Epiphania), As-Susah (Dura-Europos), Subaykhan (Dura-Europos), Asharah (Dura-Europos) and Al-Qunjah (can not identify).

For Palmyra (formerly Hama) province, I'd use Palmyra, Khirbet el-Bilaas, Qasr al-Hayr, Arak and Bir Abu 'Amyat.

For Al Kawm (formerly Asas and Palmyra) province, I'd use Al Kawm, As Sukhnah and Ash Sholah, trimming the province down to 3 settlements.

Palmyra also starts as de facto liege of Kallinikos province (a misnomer; as noted above, Kallinikos was an alternate name for Rakka/Raqqah.) Most of the baronies scripted for Kallinikos seem to have been founded after the Assyrian Holocaust, or have virtually no information about them on Wikipedia. I'd retain only Hasakah (rename province to this) and Hamoukar, and add one of the local tells to round out the scripted 3 settlements - Tell Brak would do.

 

[Numahr]

The map generated by the Eastern expansion was full of such inconsistencies. There even was a Roussillon in Iran... I corrected them for the area I know well IRL, Persia and Central Asia, although some oddities remain. The "good" Persia and Central Asia will be for the next map currently in the works, I have tweaked this area for this project and I think it looks satisfactory. But the wide Middle East, i.e. mostly the Arab world, requires a vast clean up.

Now when you have a doubt for specific names, don't forget that fellow modders have already gone through the same process with access to specialized materials. You may want to have a look at their CK2 geography, with all due respect and if appropriate credit / authorization (SWMH comes to mind...)

 

[DarkReborn]

The "good" Persia and Central Asia will be for the next map currently in the works, I have tweaked this area for this project and I think it looks satisfactory. But the wide Middle East, i.e. mostly the Arab world, requires a vast clean up.

Oh, so, Has Futuregary contacted you about the new map? Or is it another one altogether?

 

[Numahr]

I've worked with him some time ago on Persia and Central Asia, tweaking the provinces.bmp for these areas.

 

[richvh]

Look over my edits to the first post and comment, please.

 

[Ezumiyr]

Asas means "foundation" in arabic (Al-Asas was a famous Iraqi newspaper). Also, I don't know if it's the correct place, but there is a Wadi al-Hasa in modern Jordan where roman and greek inscriptions were found (probably some nymph cult ?). It's probably too far in the south, but the word hasa/ahsa/other variations seem to be often used to name places with water in arabic.

 

[Numahr]

I read and support your direction. But since you set up to work on this area, let me encourage you to go even further.

All this area is pretty much desertic so except for Palmyra you can further reduce the number of barony-type holdings. You could even change the desert area into tribal provinces with 1 holding. I have access to pretty accurate Geographic Information Systems at work and I can send you a detailed map of today's population density, which has not changed much in relative terms (population being where there are rivers and oasis).

Based on these data, below is the rough area that could be changed into tribal desert. I would even suggest creating impassable terrain to cut the area as Muslim chroniclers themselves considered this area impassable by armies.

 

[richvh]

I was going to turn my attention west and north next, as I've noted some misplaced settlements/titles there as well. I know SWMH has made most of that area you've marked wasteland.

 

[Numahr]

Note that they made this decision before the new nomadic mechanic and consider turning this area into a wide nomadic area.

Anyway deleting all these provinces would be detrimental to LI since they matter for the sake of realm, religion and ruler set up. But turning them into 1-province holdings, possibly tribal, would represent a bit better what they were, non strategic areas, refuge of nomadic Bedouin tribes. Plus creating an impassable border would make Palmyra what it also was, the southernmost safe passage between Mesopotamia and the Levant. This way the Middle East would not be this blob of similar provinces anymore, like a Normandy in yellow instead of Green.

 

[richvh]

Looks like it'd need to be a real crooked line to avoid dividing unitary states in that area.

 

[Numahr]

Actually that would require, I think, cutting some of the existing provinces to keep it visually "straight".

 

[DarkReborn]

You can make them tribal and ramp up the attrition with province modifiers using a custom geographic zone, if you want to represent how inhospitable those lands were to armies.

 

[Numahr]

yes that would be better than impassable land, at least for LI and its slight fantasy twist

 

[richvh]

I'm not sure province modifiers can do the job (can't find any event modifiers affecting attrition), and I think it'd be cleaner to do it with terrain (which can affect attrition, supply limit, and movement speed). Trouble is, I have no experience terrain modding.

 

[Numahr]

According the the Wiki, supply_limit and max_attrition work as province modifiers. That is all we need...

 

[richvh]

Added syrian_desert province modifier to the marked provinces in the startup maintenance event. (Won't affect existing games.) Changed all marked provinces to one settlement max tribal holdings in province history.

 

[richvh]

Next up is Antioch. This is a two duchy (Antioch and Tripoli), seven county (Alexandria ad Issum/Alexandretta, Antiocheia, Apamea and Thapsacus in Antioch duchy, Tripoli, Sepph and Heliopolis in Tripoli duchy.)

The kingdom name and duchy names look good to me, though I think for consistency Antiocheia should be a cultural title for barony, county, duchy and kingdom, with Antioch being the main title for each. Similarly Alexandria ad Issum should be a cultural title for the county and barony, with the main title being Alexandretta, Heliopolis should be a cultural title for Baalbek county/barony, and Tripolis should be a cultural title for Tripoli duchy/county/barony.

The other 3 county names are misplaced. Thapsacus' location is unknown, but was definitely on the Euphrates, not the Orontes. The best supported identification seems to be with Carchemish, which would put it in our Edessa province. Apameia was on the Orontes, not the coast, so I would rename Thapsacus to Apamea, possibly using that as a cultural title and Famia as the main title - Famia being the name of the village built on the ruins of Apamea after its destruction by Khosroes II. Finally, the biblical Sepph is identified with Safed just north of the Sea of Galilee, putting it in our Tiberias province. I'd rename it Damascus, removing that title from the desert dwellers to its east.

For Alexandretta county, I accept Alexandretta, Rhosus and Myriandros, rejecting the other baronies. To round it out to the max settlement value of 4, I would add Belen.

For Antiocheia county, I accept Antiocheia, Latakiah, and St. Symeon, and would add Seleucia Pieria, Ras al-Bassit (Poseidion/Poseidium) and Yayladagi to round out the 6 scripted max settlements.

For former Apameia (c_tortosa), I would rename it to Arwad (Arados/Aradus), and use Arwad (Arados/Aradus), Tortosa (Antarados/Antaradus) (the mainland settlement that has come in the modern day to overshadow the Phoenician mother island city which it faces), Baniyas (Balaneia) and Jableh (Jabala)

For former Thapsacus county (c_archa, to be renamed Famia/Apamea), I would use Famia (Apamea), Shaizar (Larissa), Masyaf (Marsyas) and Salqin.

For Tripoli (Tripolis), I would use Tripoli (Tripolis), Gibelet (Byblos), Enfeh (Nephin), Chekka and Bsharri.

For Baalbek (Heliopolis), I would use Baalbek (Heliopolis), Hermel, Yammoune and Labweh.

For former Sepph, renamed to Damascus, I would use Damascus, Dumayr, Mt. Hermon and Kumidi.

 

[richvh]

See edits above.

 

[richvh]

If there are areas where anyone wants me to look at de jure holdings, speak up.

Next up is Edessa.

Beroea province (c_aleppo) and barony should have Aleppo as its main name, with Beroea a cultural title. Other holdings: A'zaz, Harem, Ebla (anachoristic, as it never recovered from its destruction in c. 1600 BC, but there's lots of anachronisms like that in LI), Sarmin and Maarat al-Nu'man.

Edessa should be Justinopolis if held by Byzantines. Other holdings should be Carchemish (Europos/Europus), Birtha (Macedonopolis), Serug (Batnae) and Nisibis.

c_aintab (currently Antiocheia ad Taurus) should have Aintab as its main name, and Antiocheia ad Taurum as a cultural title. Other holdings: Marash (Germanicia Caesarea) and Cyrrhus.

Hellenopolis aka Tell Bashir seems to be a bit too far east to be in the borders of c_tell_bashir. I'll rename the province Tel Aydab and um... may have to rework Edessa more, not much in the area.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

I still have the files for my planned Arabian expansion, you know... If you want we can coordinate this. Or I can upload them too.