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Who would you say has been England's greatest king or queen?

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Sgt Bash said:
The horns of the dilemma, namely a lack of money to feed and water the crews or to discharge them, was largely of Elizabeth I's own making. She ordered that the expenses of war should be stopped as soon as possible. The ships arrived in their ports to discover there was no food, no water and no money for them. There was money for commemorative paintings and medals to be struck to celebrate the victory. Eventually, money was found to pay half of the mariners' pay and the crews were discharged. The roads from the ports to the interior were littered with the bodies of the men, who perished trying to get home. Cecil, the Queen's advisor, asked why so much money was still needed if thousands had already died? Hawkings replied that the dead needed to be paid for their families. These were the heroes, who saved England.
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I do believe that Sir Walter Raleigh paid the Sailors out of this own Pocket (it still was not enough) because the English crown would not.
 
My final point on Elizabeth I and her navy. After the battles, the Armada attempted to return to Spain by going north, around Scotland and down the west coast of Ireland. Much of the fleet was destroyed by storms. The Armada lost over 7,000 men trying to return home. The English navy lost the same number of men while sitting in port.
 
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Sgt Bash said:
My final point on Elizabeth I and her navy. After the battles, the Armada attempted to return to Spain by going north, around Scotland and down the west coast of Ireland. Much of the fleet was destroyed by storms. The Armada lost over 7,000 men trying to return home. The English navy lost the same number of men while sitting in port.
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On the other hand they still had enough ships and men to waste them at the Siege of Cadiz next year.
 
bz249 said:
On the other hand they still had enough ships and men to waste them at the Siege of Cadiz next year.
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You are correct. The Spanish navy lost both ships and men. The English navy lost only men, which were easier to replace.
 
Athelstan. I'm astonished that people consider Edward II, Henry I, Henry II, Elizabeth I or Cromwell greater, but we may well mean different things by "greater".

I consider not only the power and position of the king and country, but what was in place before, and after they assumed the throne.
 
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Sgt Bash said:
You are correct. The Spanish navy lost both ships and men. The English navy lost only men, which were easier to replace.
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And yet, the Spanish navy sundered the English Armada the following year, and was largely unaffected by this ever-so-world-historical loss.

Even the defeat of the Armada had a whole lot more to do with weather than with the actions of Lizzies boy toy.

To wit, Armadas 2 and 3 were likewise defeated by the weather, but you dont hear the anglos boast themselves silly over those.


Elizabeth the First had first-rate hagiographers and propagandists (and an uncritical english and international audience to gobble all that dross up), I'll give you that.

Actual achievements that outlasted her reign? A whole lot less.
 
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Herbert West said:
And yet, the Spanish navy sundered the English Armada the following year, and was largely unaffected by this ever-so-world-historical loss.

Even the defeat of the Armada had a whole lot more to do with weather than with the actions of Lizzies boy toy.

To wit, Armadas 2 and 3 were likewise defeated by the weather, but you dont hear the anglos boast themselves silly over those.


Elizabeth the First had first-rate hagiographers and propagandists (and an uncritical english and international audience to gobble all that dross up), I'll give you that.

Actual achievements that outlasted her reign? A whole lot less.
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An excerpt from "Herbert disapproves of the English Speaking Peoples", Chapter 66, Verse 37
 
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Andre Bolkonsky said:
An excerpt from "Herbert disapproves of the English Speaking Peoples", Chapter 66, Verse 37
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Or you could engage with the actual post instead.

Do you dispute the impact of weather on the Spanish Armada, the failure of the counter-Armada, or the failure of the second and third armadas?
 
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Herbert West said:
Or you could engage with the actual post instead.

Do you dispute the impact of weather on the Spanish Armada, the failure of the counter-Armada, or the failure of the second and third armadas?
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You never cease to amuse.

No. Why should I overlook the effect of weather, or the fact mounting massive offensive naval operations during this era was a daunting task dancing in a fickle wind?

This does not change my answer in any way.
 
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Herbert West said:
Elizabeth the First had first-rate hagiographers and propagandists (and an uncritical english and international audience to gobble all that dross up), I'll give you that.
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Perhaps this was indication of Elizabeth's greatest achievement - the communication. For example, science is dependent on successful communication of a result. You can have the best results ever, but unless you communicate those results in the appropriate way they mean nothing.

It doesn't really matter what defeated the Armada. It was the fact that the Armada had been beaten and the world knew about it!
 
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Herbert West said:
And yet, the Spanish navy sundered the English Armada the following year, and was largely unaffected by this ever-so-world-historical loss.

Even the defeat of the Armada had a whole lot more to do with weather than with the actions of Lizzies boy toy.

To wit, Armadas 2 and 3 were likewise defeated by the weather, but you dont hear the anglos boast themselves silly over those.


Elizabeth the First had first-rate hagiographers and propagandists (and an uncritical english and international audience to gobble all that dross up), I'll give you that.

Actual achievements that outlasted her reign? A whole lot less.
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Attributing the defeat of the first Armada to the weather is very short sighted. It is like saying my holiday in Scotland was ruined because it rained. The first Armada failed because the Spanish plan was curiously flawed. The plan required the active intervention of God. The thinking was that the invasion of England was to bring the country back to God. In which case, God needed to do his part. The plan called for the Armada to put into Dutch ports and load the Spanish army. God was then to calm the sea allowing the safe transfer of the army to England. "We sail on in the confident hope of a miracle", wrote Medina Sidonia, the Armada admiral. God did not do his part and the rest is history.
 
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Sgt Bash said:
Attributing the defeat of the first Armada to the weather is very short sighted. It is like saying my holiday in Scotland was ruined because it rained. The first Armada failed because the Spanish plan was curiously flawed. The plan required the active intervention of God. The thinking was that the invasion of England was to bring the country back to God. In which case, God needed to do his part. The plan called for the Armada to put into Dutch ports and load the Spanish army. God was then to calm the sea allowing the safe transfer of the army to England. "We sail on in the confident hope of a miracle", wrote Medina Sidonia, the Armada admiral. God did not do his part and the rest is history.
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God DID do His part and the rest is history.
 
Andre Bolkonsky said:
God DID do His part and the rest is history.
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Yes, that was certainly the opinion of Elizabeth I and her government. Curiously, it was also the opinion of Philip II. Good spot on your part.
 
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England’s greatest monarch? That’s easy…. It’s John. He was so amazing that he signed the Magna Carta.

;)
 
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