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I don't know if you're using IW for this, but I can only say there should never be this close of a difference in production cost between these two


As I said before, the purposes of Lights isn't to match Mediums in terms of stats. Trying to do so is considerably risky.

I have attached a save from my most recent historical Germany game, vanilla except for Modifier Icons. If you don't feel comfortable looking it over please ask me what you want to see and I can post them here for you.

For this game I used three main designs; the Panzer's I, II and III. As stated it was historical so they are pretty much RP designs, however that does still conform to my way of thinking. The Standardized Production MIO is used on all three so to see the true costs, remove -5.00% Production Cost

This is the state of my army on March 18th, 1940:
View attachment 1296259

Panzer I:
View attachment 1296244
You can remove the radio for an even cheaper design, as the bonuses it provides aren't worth it. This is what I use as my 'training tank'

In the overview screenshot above, you see I have 1276 deployed. What isn't shown is the 2396, training ~6 new tank divisions (with 360 tanks each)

Panzer II:
View attachment 1296250
Again, the radio could be removed for even cheaper. From 1939 to early 1941, this is my 'standard' of stats. I produce both this and the Panzer I from 1936

Around early 1939 I start producing the next design

Panzer III:
View attachment 1296256
I have to clarify some things about this in regards to the save. Specifically, that I forgot to swap the main gun from the pre-made's Basic HV Cannon to the Improved Small Cannon and didn't change it for about a year of production. What is shown above, the Ausf. E, is the one I tend to use, but is not permanent

The Panzer III is the most 'loose' in terms of design criteria. The gun is the most interchangeable; it can be swapped for an Autocannon, meaning you save 1 IC but have no anti-armour capability. The Basic Medium Cannon/Howitzer can be used and do offer incredible benefit, I simply prefer not to

As for the Smoke Launcher, that is a relic from the pre-made design; it can be removed to save that little extra IC

A final note, each design can have the misc modules filled as desired. I leave them blank mostly

So yeah, these are my designs for early Germany.
I hate to be that guy, but when people are talking about optimizations there really isn't much place for "historical" designs because these are all terrible in game and don't represent typical player designs. You have empty module slots, suboptimal modules, etc. People are talking about cost effectiveness of various sizes of tanks when optimized. At least that's my reading of it. If someone were trying to build a good tank they wouldn't make anything remotely like these designs.

These are what I would more or less consider "meta" light and medium tanks for single player, without MIOs assigned. 8 kph to keep up with mech 1, no going above armor 4 to save on steel costs, highest possible soft attack gun, hmg turrets instead of small cannon turrets because they're more cost efficient.

1747004882128.png

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The cost per battalion is almost exactly the same because of the 60 lights per 50 mediums required for a battlion (look at the higher number estimate in the bottom right).
1747004984790.png

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There are lots of options to exploit light tanks you already have to optimise production and training of medium armoured divisions. I'm well aware of @blahmaster6k 's slightly elaborate scheme for instant trained armoured divisions but it is definitely not how the game is intended to be played so has to be considered an exploit. Available light tanks or just super cheap light tanks that are currently surplus to current occupation requirements can be used t build or train light armoured divisions which can reasonably economically be converted to mediums as and when medium tank production is adequate for that purpose. This is a perfectly reasonable use of light tanks and, along with using foreign tanks, is an historically accurate use as this commonly occurred in the German armed forces. Divisions would often be given their genuine German equipment at the last minute before operational deployment.
I don't really agree with it being an exploit. It's definitely an optimization trick, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it an exploit. To my knowledge, everyone in multiplayer does it if you're in a high skill game and it's widely accepted. If it was considered an exploit it would probably be banned by house rules, but it isn't. It's just using the game systems as designed in a way that benefits the player.

I could even argue the game wants you to do it. The game tells you when you're converting or editing templates how much equipment it will cost you, and how much your stockpile will change. The game intends for you to edit your templates, and the game intends for you to swap divisions between different templates. The game also clearly intends for the player to be able to turn different equipment variants or categories on and off, or the buttons wouldn't exist in the division designer. Nothing about this strategy is unintended, except insofar as multiple intended steps when put together effectively removes the division experience loss from template swapping.

You can even do the entire strategy without template editing at all, and only use the last step of having a duplicate tank template with tanks and mechanized turned off. You can exercise those tank divisions that don't have tanks, and they'll still become regulars eventually while only burning guns. It's just slower that way, because training experience is dependent on the ratio of equipment the division has.
 
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the window for light tanks shine against AI is 1939~1940, because even majors dont have enough medium tank or anti-tank stuff from rifles.
"but motorized": is very sensitive to attrition, also requires rubber to produce.

light tanks + early mobile warfare bonunes is all enough.
 
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I hate to be that guy, but when people are talking about optimizations there really isn't much place for "historical" designs because these are all terrible in game and don't represent typical player designs. You have empty module slots, suboptimal modules, etc. People are talking about cost effectiveness of various sizes of tanks when optimized. At least that's my reading of it. If someone were trying to build a good tank they wouldn't make anything remotely like these designs.

These are what I would more or less consider "meta" light and medium tanks for single player, without MIOs assigned. 8 kph to keep up with mech 1, no going above armor 4 to save on steel costs, highest possible soft attack gun, hmg turrets instead of small cannon turrets because they're more cost efficient.

View attachment 1296316
View attachment 1296317

The cost per battalion is almost exactly the same because of the 60 lights per 50 mediums required for a battlion (look at the higher number estimate in the bottom right).View attachment 1296319
These are fair points, and are most likely the correct school of thought

I still believe there is value in my strategy, however small/abstract
 
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I could be wrong, but I believe the xp loss when swapping tank types is less than taking an infantry division and turning it into a radically different template, like a tank division. Plus you want to train deployed divisions as little as possible because of the attrition, so any amount you can retain is valuable
@blahmaster6k explained it, I was referring to the "soft exploit" of template conversion which is the cheapest possible way of training to veterans in every sense, if it's too game-y that's fine obviously

he basically explained everything else regarding tanks too, like the exchange below, but I'll elaborate:
I'm struggling to think of a situation where a light tank design costs substantially less than a medium with equal/better stats would.
the cheapest possible medium costs 1 IC/unit more than the cheapest possible light (like 20% more), but since a light battalion uses 20% more equipment there's basically no difference.
I don't know if you're using IW for this, but I can only say there should never be this close of a difference in production cost between these two
it holds for basically all techs, the cost difference between most light tank chassis and nearest-year medium chassis is just 1 IC, most modules cost the same/similar otherwise (just a .75 IC difference between light and medium turrets, and obviously mediums have way more stats). if your target is a certain level of different stats to add to a division - as it always is, if your goal is winning (as opposed to roleplay) - you can't really get any number of stats with lights any more cheaply than with mediums. or conversely for the same price a medium will allow you to get far better stats than a light. therefore as you and blahmaster already explored that "there should never be that close a difference in cost" doesn't really apply/make sense.
 
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Mediums should be halfway between heavies and lights in terms of cost from a balance perspective
Ok, but where exactly is added value from making them balanced?
generally it's bad game design to include choices (making lights as opposed to not making them, especially after ~1937) which are unconditionally worse to make. it'd be fine if they just merged the light and medium tank trees, and maybe left lights as a specialized recon equipment similar to armored support vehicles, but barring that there should be some benefit - either as a strictly cheaper way to achieve decent armor, while forgoing other combat stats, or maybe as an option that is massively better in rough terrain. right now all they have going for them is speed, and even that is pretty laughable, with just a ~1kmph difference between same year lights and mediums. a drastically improved speed would still not do much, though, since speed isn't that useful when compared to combat stats in most cases.

I'm not much of a history guy but it also is my understanding that often throughout the war mediums saw success against strictly stronger heavies simply by there being more of the former, in part a product of their lower cost. why wouldn't that apply to lights against mediums too? certainly, there's a tactical tradeoff between quantity and quality we see between heavies and mediums in-game - it would be nice to see that between lights and mediums too, but unfortunately battalion equipment counts mean lights functionally cost the same as mediums.
 
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Light tanks don't carry a division by themselves like Mediums/Heavies, but what they do provide is full tank divisions in a timely manner and have acceptable Hardness, allowing your generals to benefit from stat bonuses and Hardness-locked tactics.

They will never beat Medium/Heavy tanks, because they aren't designed to.

An extreme example I can use is 'why would you use Mediums when you can just make Super-Heavys (old, battalion style) or Moderns?'

It's such an extreme example everyone can look at it and go 'that's absurd', but this situation with Lights works on the same principle
interwar mediums are good enough to compete with lights as line battalions in hoi 4 easily.

for hoi 4, lights are for garrison duty and support companies.
I hate to be that guy, but when people are talking about optimizations there really isn't much place for "historical" designs because these are all terrible in game and don't represent typical player designs.
imo it's annoying that historical designs are randomly penalized to such an extreme degree. the stug in particular would be a complete joke if someone made it in hoi 4. it was a very dangerous vehicle in ww2. better in ambush and defensively, but still way better than the game lets it be on offense.

this limitation extends to light tanks. both historical tank designs, and superstructure. superstructure forces role change. for arbitrary reasons, light tanks actually use less tanks per battalion when designated td. however, with superstructure and role designation they cannot have breakthrough in useful quantities. hence a light spg gets all the meme penalties of existing as spg in hoi 4, and a light td with improved medium cannon would be almost worth considering if not for having less breakthrough than towed artillery, which kills it.

i disagree with the meta light tank for sp though. you are paying through the nose for breakthrough due to suspension + extra equips. you do not need this in sp. the real problem for them in sp is that 29 soft attack per battalion is not great, and unless you go variants and kill your breakthrough, you can't do better.
the window for light tanks shine against AI is 1939~1940, because even majors dont have enough medium tank or anti-tank stuff from rifles.
the window for sp light tanks is 1936 and 1937 when you start with the techs unlocked and especially if you start with them in production. especially if you take advantage of fascism justify speed boost, you can conquer most or all majors before you'd have time to make a lot of medium howitzers, so you might as well just throw the close support gun on lights and use them to eliminate serious opposition by/before 1939. this is the kind of scenario where light tanks are actually worth a second look as a line battalion.

if you go to war later than that, you can just make mediums. or win using starting armies/templates and micro in very early wars, if you're a major this is not hard to do.
 
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right now all they have going for them is speed, and even that is pretty laughable, with just a ~1kmph difference between same year lights and mediums. a drastically improved speed would still not do much, though, since speed isn't that useful when compared to combat stats in most cases.
I think the game actually used to model the speed advantage better in the early days after NSB. The speed ticks on a tank design used to be relative, adding a % speed increase to the tank. This multiplier was more effective on lights compared to mediums thanks to the slightly higher base speed, so a light tank with 20 engine tanks could actually be decently faster than a medium.

Then at some point they first nerfed the multiplier from engine ticks and then completely reworked the mechanic. Now every engine tick adds a flat 0.1 kph of speed no matter what the design is based off of, which basically renders the difference between lights and mediums (and the differences between different tiers of tanks) moot. 20 engine ticks will give exactly the same amount of speed to an interwar heavy as to a 1941 light.

In 1.16, adding 20 engine ticks to an advanced light and an IW heavy looks like this:

1747033580595.png

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Compare this to 1.11.13, the most recent release of NSB. Behold the mighty engine tick which gave +10% speed per engine tick. Hovering the engine tooltip doesn't give a detailed breakdown in that version, however, only saying that my 20 engine ticks are adding 11kph to my light tank.
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Granted, I understand why it was nerfed. Having 17kph light tanks and 14kph interwar heavies even as a theoretical possibility was pretty ridiculous, even if in practice they would be limited to the speed of motorized or mechanized in any practical use case other than 2w snaking. But modern engine ticks really aren't very impactful at all and there's not much of a difference in speed.

Speed may be less useful than combat stats in most cases, but high speed is absolutely useful and you always want it if you can get it. In multiplayer you don't really care about speed and people happily use 5 kph heavy tanks, but if those 5 kph heavies could have the same stats at 10 kph everyone would use the 10 kph ones. Even with slightly worse stats, if you still have enough stats to click enemy divisions and outmaneuver and encircle the enemy then you'd do that every time.

The downside is that to get any faster heavy tanks you'd have to completely tank your production efficiency, and quantity is a stat all of its own as well.
 
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but as rule of thumb you'd think reasonable light tank designs should be around half the price of medium tanks
But then this would encroach on the armoured cars space and they already nerfed both lights and mediums to address this problem (and still not an appreciable difference for anything after interwar armoured cars...)

Though yeah I did see the response to the change being that increasing light tank costs just pigeonholes us into mediums even more than we already were.
 
Generic remark:
Even today, the concept "something significantly lighter than an MBT" is not dead:
There is a Type 15 tank (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_15_tank),
there is a Mobile Protected Firepower (MPF) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Protected_Firepower),
a ASCOD LT-105 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCOD or a
2S25 Sprut-SD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2S25_Sprut-SD).

All of these 4 are tracked vehicles with combat weights significantly lower than an MBT. Regarding the Type 15 wiki says:
"The Type 15 is designed to fulfill the requirement for a lighter, more mobile modern tank that can effectively operate in highland/plateau, woodland and water-rich regions where the heavier Type 99 and Type 96 main battle tanks might have difficulties traversing."

So even today there is a role for something like a "light tank". Not a bing role, but a role. Why shouldn't that be the case in the 1940s?
 
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Why shouldn't that be the case in the 1940s?
I notice that Type 15 has an intended use-case at high altitudes, but the issue is that in the game one simply does not fight in mountains using tanks, and I don't think we would be changing the game design around light tanks just to accomodate that.
Also air-transported tanks are underrated in utility (or perfectly rated as being deficient) in the 1940s, and would require further technological and doctrinal advancements to have a good combat use.
 
Well, basically any tank can be built around bad terrain. Look at Japan, all their armored vehicles are built around the fact that they have to fight in mountainous and are lighter than other tanks in other countries, look at the Type 3 Chi-Nu medium tank, it weighs 18.8 tons, and the light M24 Chaffee weighs 18 tons.

Edit: Even a heavy tank can be built around high cross-country capability: Object 279

20211127_115203.jpg
 
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Generic remark:
Even today, the concept "something significantly lighter than an MBT" is not dead:
There is a Type 15 tank (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_15_tank),
there is a Mobile Protected Firepower (MPF) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Protected_Firepower),
a ASCOD LT-105 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCOD or a
2S25 Sprut-SD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2S25_Sprut-SD).

All of these 4 are tracked vehicles with combat weights significantly lower than an MBT. Regarding the Type 15 wiki says:
"The Type 15 is designed to fulfill the requirement for a lighter, more mobile modern tank that can effectively operate in highland/plateau, woodland and water-rich regions where the heavier Type 99 and Type 96 main battle tanks might have difficulties traversing."

So even today there is a role for something like a "light tank". Not a bing role, but a role. Why shouldn't that be the case in the 1940s?
The concept of tanks dedicated to rough terrain may not be universally implemented, but it is represented; specifically, the British Raj with their Mountain Tanks focus

Well, basically any tank can be built around bad terrain. Look at Japan, all their armored vehicles are built around the fact that they have to fight in mountainous and are lighter than other tanks in other countries, look at the Type 3 Chi-Nu medium tank, it weighs 18.8 tons, and the light M24 Chaffee weighs 18 tons.
With Japan most likely receiving a face-lift in the next expansion, we might see this given to them too
 
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But then this would encroach on the armoured cars space and they already nerfed both lights and mediums to address this problem (and still not an appreciable difference for anything after interwar armoured cars...)

Though yeah I did see the response to the change being that increasing light tank costs just pigeonholes us into mediums even more than we already were.
biggest difference is that IRL armored cars were applied much more limitedly and almost exclusively as recon, meanwhile lights were fighting on alongside mediums as "actual tanks" all through the war. game doesn't need AC to be viable for anything but recon
 
game doesn't need AC to be viable for anything but recon
So Armoured Recon trades the aluminium need (or motorised's rubber need) for the requirement to produce individually more expensive light tanks/armoured cars, however much cost-effective it is for the reconnaisance bonus.
 
Part of the problem is light tank battalions requiring 60 tanks. Not sure there is any justification for this other than it being a quick balance kludge that just stuck around.
TLDR it made sense before Tank Designer.

I don't really agree with it being an exploit. It's definitely an optimization trick, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it an exploit. To my knowledge, everyone in multiplayer does it if you're in a high skill game and it's widely accepted. If it was considered an exploit it would probably be banned by house rules, but it isn't. It's just using the game systems as designed in a way that benefits the player.
I think we should differentiate between exploit (using game mechanics directly against the way they were designed to be used, with high disregard to realism, believability or historicity, irrespectively of what one think about these concepts) and cheating (breaking rules agreed upon by all participating players). I stand in position that training tank crews without tanks fulfill definition of exploit, and its common usage in highly competitive multiplayer environment doesn't make it less exploit, it just make it aligned with rules agreed upon by all participating players.

generally it's bad game design to include choices (making lights as opposed to not making them, especially after ~1937) which are unconditionally worse to make.
I think this is simplicitic view. In any game complex enough, there will be options that are strictly worse than any other. You can use 50-width heavy tanks only divisions to hold the line, but would that be optimal? You can never build any military factory, but would that be optimal? Therefore, you can build weapon system that was slowly becoming obsolete as per 1939 well into 1944, but do it really has to be viable option?

That being said, I agree that light vs medium costs as-presented by @blahmaster6k are off. My wild guess is that both of them are ahistorically strong, and that maybe Reliability is not important enough - with Reliability at 50% (against 83%), actual cost of maintaining force of mediums equal in numbers to force of lights should be 66% higher than cost as-presented, for about 2 times cost of light, as you postulate. So I guess you both convinced me.

I'm not much of a history guy but it also is my understanding that often throughout the war mediums saw success against strictly stronger heavies simply by there being more of the former, in part a product of their lower cost. why wouldn't that apply to lights against mediums too?
Difference is, medium tank is standard tank, while heavy tank is specialized weapon system expected to be used in schwerpunkt. Low availability of heavy tanks, while not optimal, is acceptable. But medium tank that is produced in small numbers or is not reliable is as good as medium tank that can be penetrated by rifle fire, or cannot penetrate 20mm of armor at good range, or move 4km/h.
There are two direct results. First, if you take all german heavy tank battalions, from any point in time, I doubt you could fill one 80-width province with them. But that's ok, you don't need them to fill frontage, you need just enough, with other arms, to break enemy line at one province. But it also means there is nothing particularly strange with achieving numerical superiority over them.
Second, while much emphasis is put to tank-on-tank actions, that is not what mediums were historically for. Medium tanks are not anti-tank weapons, through they are quite good at it. They are universal war machines, expected to kill tanks, infantry, light armored vehicles and fortifications, while withstanding artillery and airstrikes. Its not enough to saw success against them, to be viable alternative, your light tanks have to be - after taking their bigger number into account - better at fighting infantry, withstanding anti-tank fire, withstanding artillery, and only then at killing mediums, and they have to do that more or less on the whole frontline at once.
TLDR there is not direct analogy.
 
I think this is simplicitic view. In any game complex enough, there will be options that are strictly worse than any other. You can use 50-width heavy tanks only divisions to hold the line, but would that be optimal? You can never build any military factory, but would that be optimal? Therefore, you can build weapon system that was slowly becoming obsolete as per 1939 well into 1944, but do it really has to be viable option?
a bit facetious as you know what I meant - obviously there are some choices which always suck (like moving unescorted convoys through enemy-raided waters) but that's completely different from choices like researches, doctrines and focus trees, where I'm sure you'd agree ideally there should be reasonable situations where any doctrine/technology/focus path is the best.
My wild guess is that both of them are ahistorically strong, and that maybe Reliability is not important enough - with Reliability at 50% (against 83%), actual cost of maintaining force of mediums equal in numbers to force of lights should be 66% higher than cost as-presented, for about 2 times cost of light
yeah I agree, reliability mattering would be a solid fix here
Difference is, medium tank is standard tank, while heavy tank is specialized weapon system expected to be used in schwerpunkt. Low availability of heavy tanks, while not optimal, is acceptable. But medium tank that is produced in small numbers or is not reliable is as good as medium tank that can be penetrated by rifle fire, or cannot penetrate 20mm of armor at good range, or move 4km/h.
There are two direct results. First, if you take all german heavy tank battalions, from any point in time, I doubt you could fill one 80-width province with them. But that's ok, you don't need them to fill frontage, you need just enough, with other arms, to break enemy line at one province. But it also means there is nothing particularly strange with achieving numerical superiority over them.
of course there's nothing strange in mediums achieving numerical superiority over heavies, heavies are way more expensive and weren't used nearly as much! that's exactly what I said too. but none of that means lights shouldn't have numerical superiority over mediums too, which they currently don't really due to their high cost.
Second, while much emphasis is put to tank-on-tank actions, that is not what mediums were historically for. Medium tanks are not anti-tank weapons, through they are quite good at it. They are universal war machines, expected to kill tanks, infantry, light armored vehicles and fortifications, while withstanding artillery and airstrikes. Its not enough to saw success against them, to be viable alternative, your light tanks have to be - after taking their bigger number into account - better at fighting infantry, withstanding anti-tank fire, withstanding artillery, and only then at killing mediums, and they have to do that more or less on the whole frontline at once.
TLDR there is not direct analogy.
I see what you're trying to say - "mediums beating heavies is about individual tank battles, not about replacing heavies' entire role" (or vice versa). however you're still ignoring why heavies had their role, despite also being great at killing tanks, infantry, light armor and fortifications - fundamentally it was a matter of cost. especially when looking at the abstracted level of combat in Hoi4, choosing to use heavies over mediums (beyond a single battalion for armor/piercing) should only be viable in wars where mediums are unable to overcome certain attack thresholds for winning battles and/or having "more" vs "better" tanks past a point is no longer tactically useful; the same should still go for mediums vs lights.

adding to that, certainly pre-NSB/without the tank designer, there were some cases where even in PVP a player using light tanks could defeat one using mediums or even (rarely) heavies thanks to their increased flexibility. there are also some popular multiplayer mods where "reasonable" stat rebalances have made lights viable into the mid-game.
 
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better at withstanding anti-tank fire
To succeed in this endeavour light tanks would have to be inordinately quick, comparable to the speeds at which the M18 Hellcat was reported to have been able to dodge tank fire at, or at least when hit was harmless. This would represent an extreme compromise in armour however.
 
I think this is simplicitic view. In any game complex enough, there will be options that are strictly worse than any other.
perhaps, but the word "unconditionally" pulls weight in what you quoted. if you have an option which is always incorrect to choose regardless of circumstances/game state, *then* it's a bad design element. if it is only bad most of the time/has edge use cases, then it has a purpose in the game and is not only a beginner trap.
 
Focusing on the original question for this thread, I think we can't avoid coming to the conclusion that with the tank designer and the current version of the game light tanks are fairly useless in a general sense. The problem is that this is a combination of factors. I can knock together a pretty cheap and fairly realistic light tank and not useless light tank by slapping on an automatic cannon and not spending on anything else. This gets me a tank that motors around at a perfectly acceptable speed and costs just over 5 IC. I can even upgrade it a bit - christie, 3 man turret, close support gun - and it still only costs just over 8. If I start upgrading it to be a good tank, then it gets expensive but I can build cheap but like a very poor medium tank light tanks. These are the proper representation of the progression from light tank to medium as simply the main tank for divisions. This leaves us with the conclusion that light tanks don't have a combat role if we have access to reasonable medium tanks but this primarily because the game has an excessive focus on force density. There should be a role for cheap light tanks but since the game pushes us towards maximising combat power per combat width this isn't the case. So, to a degree the problem with light tanks is stacking combat power onto a light tank makes it non-cost competitive with medium tanks.