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Why aren't supply lines DIRECTLY affected by convoy raiding?

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unmerged(46476)

Second Lieutenant
Jul 17, 2005
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Ok, so I like the majority of the supply/convoy system of HOI3 - I think it makes a lot of sense and for the most part accurately (though abstractly) represents the logistics of supplying troops. There's one thing that irks me though:

How come raiding a particular supply line doesn't affect that specific route of supply?

Let's say I'm playing the US and I've got a D-Day invasion going on simultaneously with an invasion of the Phillipines. Let's also assume that the Atlantic is safe, but Japan is managing to wax nearly every supply convoy I send over there. It makes no sense that their convoy raiding should impact my ability to supply my troops on the other side of the Atlantic, who would be using entirely different convoy ships. Their convoy kills are going to be taken from my "global" convoy pool and can impact my ability to supply troops everywhere, even where the Japanese navy is not. That just seems ridiculous.

Also, as convoy raiding efficiency increases there should be a more dramatic effect on supply to that particular route. Again for the sake of the argument let's say I'm playing the US and I'm landing troops in China to help the Chinese. Again let's assume the Japanese navy starts sinking a massive amount of my convoys, but this time I've been smart enough to stockpile a massive number of them. Despite the fact that they could have total naval dominance and know EXACTLY WHICH BEACH THOSE CONVOY SHIPS WILL BE LANDING AT, the game will allow me to continue supplying those troops, unhindered, so long as I have enough convoys stored up. That also seems ridiculous.

Troops should only be supplied insofar as it is reasonable to assume a supply ship could actually make it to the desired drop-off point. If the enemy has a massive number of convoys stockpiled and wants to send them into a dangerous situation, sure, let them, but at least give the troops they are supplying a supply penalty when suddenly everything headed their way gets sunk.

There's a reason that there's an expression called "a slow boat to China"... it takes a long time for a ship to get there. If your ships get sunk on the way, the game shouldn't be like "DON'T WORRY IT'S K WE'VE GOT EXTRAS (who were coincidentally already traveling there in such numbers so as to fail to interrupt the flow of supplies).

That's why it totally breaks the immersion for me when a German player sneaks an army onto the UK (which could have been plausible) and then is allowed to re-supply them for a massive period of time if they have stockpiled convoys. In reality hardly a convoy would make it through a Royal Navy blockade, and that should be reflected.
 
A naval strike coupled with 24 hours of dedicated logistics bombing with achieve the desired results.

I know it's not quite the same, but the effect ends up being same. A port that has been bombed to the stone age ships hardly any supply, and a dedicated logistics strike will kill existing supply.

Works on Japanese islands and in continental Europe.
 
I agree its kinda silly, but you'll have to wait for HoI4, and maybe not even then. Paradox games are very detailed but modeling every single supply ship might get tedious after a while. There are some things that are just better to abstract.
 
yoursweatersux said:
How come raiding a particular supply line doesn't affect that specific route of supply?

Let's say I'm playing the US and I've got a D-Day invasion going on simultaneously with an invasion of the Phillipines. Let's also assume that the Atlantic is safe, but Japan is managing to wax nearly every supply convoy I send over there. It makes no sense that their convoy raiding should impact my ability to supply my troops on the other side of the Atlantic, who would be using entirely different convoy ships. Their convoy kills are going to be taken from my "global" convoy pool and can impact my ability to supply troops everywhere, even where the Japanese navy is not. That just seems ridiculous.
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Maybe I misunderstood your point but it seems to me that the system makes perfect sense. You have a limited number of convoys, convoys you can use wherever they are needed. But if you cannot make up for your losses you'll end without enough convoys to maintain all of your supply lines. It doesn't matter if the Atlantic is safe, if the Japanese sink all of your convoys you won't have enough left to supply Europe.
 
The point is, it's not just the convoys themselves getting sunk, it's the ships PLUS the supplies they were carrying, which should then be lost and fail to reach their intended destination. A blockade in game doesn't actually block anything; it merely reduces the opponent's overall pool of convoys through attrition.
 
That I understood. It's yoursweatersux first point I was answering to. Not being able to replace convoy losses should hurt one's overseas supply network in the long run regardless of which supply lines are raided by the enemy. I do agree that a destroyed ship should sink with its cargo though...
 
Secret Master said:
A naval strike coupled with 24 hours of dedicated logistics bombing with achieve the desired results.

I know it's not quite the same, but the effect ends up being same. A port that has been bombed to the stone age ships hardly any supply, and a dedicated logistics strike will kill existing supply.

Works on Japanese islands and in continental Europe.
Click to expand...

Would that prevent resources from entering a country? For example, why build a single U-boat when you could just bomb the hell out of every major British port?
 
gregor_mendel said:
Would that prevent resources from entering a country? For example, why build a single U-boat when you could just bomb the hell out of every major British port?
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No, I don't think that would work. Port value is only used to calculate how much supply/fuel can go through the port per day. As long as there is a working port, it can move 100% of the resources you need. Ditto for Lend-Lease.
 
Beagá said:
Yes blockades SHOULD exist but it´s something for HOI 4, I´m afraid.
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not really. close blockades where absolute suicide, and not for the supply convoys
 
BattleMoose said:
Well, they're not in this game and that probably raises more problems but regardless even in real life with 10+ Cvs, I am sure you could maintain a close blockade and air cover.
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Not indefinitely. Air carriers, as all ships, have a limited autonomy time. Fuel/ammo runs out - and it becomes just a target. Of course, the game does not simulate that.
 
This was one feature where we went with gameplay over realism. A player will just be too good at this kind of thing and exploit the AI ruthlessly and it would mean more micro and dealing with wildly fluctuating numbers and be a lot harder to balance right.
 
podcat said:
This was one feature where we went with gameplay over realism. A player will just be too good at this kind of thing and exploit the AI ruthlessly and it would mean more micro and dealing with wildly fluctuating numbers and be a lot harder to balance right.
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Fair enough.
 
podcat said:
This was one feature where we went with gameplay over realism. A player will just be too good at this kind of thing and exploit the AI ruthlessly and it would mean more micro and dealing with wildly fluctuating numbers and be a lot harder to balance right.
Click to expand...

Honestly, another problem created by the tiny province mindset, as it creates too many variables for the AI on where to put ships and where to focus air wings. If there were 5 major ports for UK instead of all there are now, then focusing would be a bit easier and "Trololol me has 2 destroyer blockading U everywhere" wouldn´t be a problem.

Please, for HOI 4 add at least an option for large and small provinces.
 
Beagá said:
Honestly, another problem created by the tiny province mindset, as it creates too many variables for the AI on where to put ships and where to focus air wings. If there were 5 major ports for UK instead of all there are now, then focusing would be a bit easier and "Trololol me has 2 destroyer blockading U everywhere" wouldn´t be a problem.

Please, for HOI 4 add at least an option for large and small provinces.
Click to expand...

Interesting point, but I'm not sure less ports would work as less ports would make it far easier for the human to blockade the AI.
 
Not really, think about it a bit more.

3 ports instead of 12 means much easier focusing of resources to deal with threats. It´s not only about dealing with units that are there, but also "unit shuffling" - that is, blockading a port, making the AI respond to it, then un-blockading, and blockading elsewhere.

Another way to simulate that if smaller provinces are kept would be by making pure naval bases (only repair and receive, but not send supply) and mixed naval bases that can send resources and supplies, thus making it easier to make the AI focus on those.
 
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