Why choose anything else besides Feudal Contract?

[Snaake]

Part of the problem with that is that if you want to emulate the specific differences with every country, you're going to get bogged down in the details really fast. However if you mean something like replacing the existing governments with four different broad categories of feudalisms that'd work.

Gaining realm duress lowers stability (by 1 or 2, 50% chance IIRC), managing to get rid of it increases stability (same amounts).

Then there's the "Calling the Estates General" event, where you can either not do it and have 25% chance of +1 stability and some prestige I think, crave a modest contribution and gain a nice amount of gold, or get tons of gold and 25% chance of -1 stability if you crave a large contribution.

Can't remember seeing anything else that would affect it, at least not in a long time.

 

[unmerged(94161)]

Huh. So those are the only two things that can alter your stability? Weird.

---edit---

Also, again, not sure how DV works, but personal prestige sort of functions as a stability rating of sorts anyway. Taking that into account, couldn't you make some sort of event that would make you "pay" prestige to change laws? Or something like that?

 

[jordarkelf]

Stability was added on only in DV, and I couldn't really tell you what it does... but there are a few more events that affect it.

As for law changing requiring prestige -- can't be added in, and since there are no flags like in EU3 you can't detect a law change after the fact either.

 

[Nick B II]

Well. It seems to me that it was the powerful Byzantine magnates whose large personal standing armies, immense fortunes and land holdings, more often than not ended up getting the Empire into the most trouble.

It's supposed to have gone downhill starting in 1025 with the death of Basil II. Then half a century later in 1071, you see an entire third of Diogenes' army being comprised of the personal armies of rival Anatolian lords (Ducas), abandoning him. Then deposing him immediately thereafter, invalidating the peace he just made.

Admittedly my research is based largely in Wikipedia, but apparently the Komnemni are largely responsible for creating the pronoia system.

A lot of what they did was merely legalize previously shady things that had gone on, so in CK terms they started with RP and-3 stability. Then Alexios Komnemnos went to FC and got a few "Barons could help you" events. This also shows you the weakness of RP during this period -- even the Byzantines found it impossible to actually run the country that way.

RP seem to me, to imply strong, firm handed control of the monarch over the apparatus of state, including its standing army. Whereas feudal contract is the reliance of a collection of magnates and barons to supply their personal retinues, often numbering into the thousands.

The thing you have to keep in mind is that in CK's time frame none of the countries the game seeks to simulate had any real apparatus of state. The English went furthest, and they only had Sheriff's, most of whom had virtually no support staff, and none of whom could read.

Which means that if CK wants to simulate the period RP should be virtually impossible to use for realms of more then a few counties. And the desmene limit should actually be lower for an RP realm, as the King has to do everything himself. He can't give most of the land to Barons, and then sit back and collect rent the way a feudal ruler could.

Ideally in CK2 there'll be a way to create some sort of state structure, which would inevitably lead to interesting civil wars, but until Johan et al. start writing that game we'll have to be happy with what we have.

Perhaps your effort to create a court-system protecting commoners from rapacious nobles would cause a rebellion led by a Simon de Montfort-type figure...

Thus, FC should be more unstable and prone to civil wars. But I guess it'd be cheaper and easier in some respects.

There are plenty of wars. Try running a multi-kingdom empire without a Civil War a couple times a century and you'll see what I mean. Realm Duress is a bitch.

There should be private wars, and the Civil Wars should have more definite flavors; tho.

Nick

 

[Damocles]

I just had an idea for making feudal contract a bit shittier.

There is an event somewhere that makes trouble for when your vassal's regiments are in the field but want to go home. I can't find it right for some reason.

Anyone know what I'm talking about? I could tweak the event and add significant modifiers for feudal contract, and make RP immune to it.

Although, Nick made some good points as well.

I can't help but feel that we have found a rich vein here, that we could do a lot with, using events. I just wish I was better at writing events. Mostly, I just tweak them around. About the only event I've added was one aimed specifically at Byzantine monarchs with abysmal stats and high statted heirs getting assassinated. So that Romanos Diogenes could reach the throne before 1071.

 

[unmerged(94161)]

As for law changing requiring prestige -- can't be added in, and since there are no flags like in EU3 you can't detect a law change after the fact either.

Are there flags for checking what your current law is, though? It looked like there were in... event_effects.txt (Law Value or something like that?)

If that's the case I have another idea, maybe. If you do a Grand Mobilization/Ask to Mobilize action on a vassal, doesn't that give them a call to arms event? If that's the case, couldn't you check, for instance, the current government and have that affect how they respond?

For instance, if you're RP, make it so they *can't* deny your request, maybe..?

I really don't really know much about how CK scripting works, unfortunately. Just brainstorming a little. I think I'll make a clean install of it on the other computer tonight so I can fiddle around with it (the install I have right now has a bunch of mods in it and I'm not really sure what they are).

Also a set of "we hate your current government and you're going to change it" events could also work, I'd imagine. UNLESS you can't change laws by event (but I thought you could change inheritance laws via event..?)

---edit---

Looked around in lordship_events.txt. The SOCIAL GROUPS SERIES seems like a good place to insert arbitrary law change events.

 

[jordarkelf]

Are there flags for checking what your current law is, though? It looked like there were in... event_effects.txt (Law Value or something like that?)

There are event conditions, but changing law is not using an event so you can't add conditions or modifiers to it.
There are events that allow the AI or player to change his laws, but nothing can stop the player from simply using the button instead.

If that's the case I have another idea, maybe. If you do a Grand Mobilization/Ask to Mobilize action on a vassal, doesn't that give them a call to arms event? If that's the case, couldn't you check, for instance, the current government and have that affect how they respond?

This is hardcoded, not a modifiable event.

[quote[I really don't really know much about how CK scripting works, unfortunately.[/quote] Conceptually it's a strange mix between EU2 and EU3. Nearly everything is hardcoded like in EU2 (and cannot be modded), but the event engine has many dynamic hooks like the EU3 one does. I think Paradox based the EU3 event/decisions/missions engine at least in part on CK.

UNLESS you can't change laws by event (but I thought you could change inheritance laws via event..?)

---edit---

Looked around in lordship_events.txt. The SOCIAL GROUPS SERIES seems like a good place to insert arbitrary law change events.

You can change laws by event, but as said nothing is preventing the human from just using the button instead.
Also, there are more than four inheritance laws, but an event is limited to just four options...

 

[unmerged(94161)]

You can change laws by event, but as said nothing is preventing the human from just using the button instead.

Right. So, you'd need to find some way to make doing this undesirable.

(Also SMACK seems to introduce some sort of law changing events already? Maybe I'm being redundant here).

I was playing around with that (old?) Crusader Kings Event Creator tool I found last night. From what I can gather, events have a mean time to happen, and various game conditions can modify this time to either be sooner or later. This is what I'm thinking:

You have an event that changes the government to Traditional Custom. Let's say that peasants like Traditional Custom more than anything else for whatever reason, so peasant loyalty will have to affect this in some manner.

What I'm thinking is that NOT being Traditional Custom is the specific trigger for the event, and peasant loyalty is the MTTH modifier. When peasants are very loyal, this event has a really, really long MTTH. As they get less loyal, the MTTH starts increasing exponentially, to the point where it'll happen in, say... well, really, really frequently if Traditional Custom isn't the current law and their loyalty remains low enough.

To encourage the player to not change it back, there'd also be a sizable prestige hit and maybe some sort of peasant loyalty hit, so that if you keep changing it from TC, you're going to keep triggering the event and your prestige will tank.

That should be possible, it seems..?

 

[Snaake]

You have an event that changes the government to Traditional Custom. Let's say that peasants like Traditional Custom more than anything else for whatever reason, so peasant loyalty will have to affect this in some manner.

What I'm thinking is that NOT being Traditional Custom is the specific trigger for the event, and peasant loyalty is the MTTH modifier. When peasants are very loyal, this event has a really, really long MTTH. As they get less loyal, the MTTH starts increasing exponentially, to the point where it'll happen in, say... well, really, really frequently if Traditional Custom isn't the current law and their loyalty remains low enough.

So far so good, without actually having experience in event coding, I believe it should be possible to check the ruling law, and peasant loyalty in a province, can someone confirm? Maybe the tax level could also have an effect. Although peasants would probably actually prefer Popular Law, if they knew what was best for them. This event could be coded to have option of eg. change to Popular Law and make peasants a lot happier (they win), change to TC (compromise), or crush them! With maybe a 4th, to bribe the leaders of the peasant revolution.

This is starting to sound like Vicky laws and POP militancy and consciousness stuff... Well, essentially there are 4 types of pops in CK, but their numbers are abstracted, with only events like "towns and hamlets grow considerably" (increases prosperity level of a province).

To encourage the player to not change it back, there'd also be a sizable prestige hit and maybe some sort of peasant loyalty hit, so that if you keep changing it from TC, you're going to keep triggering the event and your prestige will tank.

I think changing laws is pretty hardcoded (although there is that cognate primogeniture mod, that changes monastic supremacy to be a cognate primo law that has events that make females inherit, if the ruler has no direct male-line heirs), so the prestige thing may not be possible. Don't think there's a time limit for changing ruling law either (or that you could adjust it), just on inheritance law.

Although, another route to take: the options for this new "the peasants (/burghers/whatever) demand a change in your ruling law" event could have -prestige on them, or so you could mitigate at least almost all of it with the bribery maybe, or have the only way to avoid prestige loss be the crush them -option. If this option could then be made to trigger another event spawning rebels in the province, and maybe an event granting them either an X number of troops or granting them more than the normal number. Dunno if rebels can be spawned by event though, and all other events that trigger other events are between characters though.

Crushing the peasants should cause revolt/looted/lowering of loyalty though, and all 3 do lower the income from the province...

 

[unmerged(94161)]

Actually peasant loyalty shouldn't be what forces law changes. Peasant *power* should be. Logically speaking, if they're not very loyal, they're probably lacking power and couldn't force a law change. If they have a lot of power, then they'd have a lot of influence and *could*.

This is starting to sound like Vicky laws and POP militancy and consciousness stuff... Well, essentially there are 4 types of pops in CK, but their numbers are abstracted, with only events like "towns and hamlets grow considerably" (increases prosperity level of a province).

More or less I need to figure Vicky out. It looks like SimIsle with guns. In theory that should be my favorite thing in the world.

I also have to admit the lack of POPS-ish entities in the EU games strikes me as a bit odd. It would need a more CK, abstract way of doing it

Although, another route to take...

Sorry, that's more what I was suggesting. I didn't make that clear. The *event* has a prestige hit, not changing the law in the menu. The thing I was getting at is that if you change the law away from whatever was just selected, it'll scale the MTTH to be really *short*, forcing the law change event and another prestige hit. This should be totally possible given what I've seen so far, assuming... the various triggers work the way I think they do.

Another idea for RP. Since the Grand Mobilization thing doesn't cause an event on you vassals (the reason I thought it did was uh... I misread something!), maybe have RP decrease the MTTH for the mercenary getting event. If you want to get really creative you could probably make a *chain* of events to ensure that the mercenaries being generated match your own culture and give it some flavor text like "You can force your vassals to pledge additional troops to your cause" or something.

I also feel like modding the negative improvements to take how much power the nobility has into account. It seems to me like the knights SHOULD be the law back then, so if the nobility has more than 50% of the power in a given province, it should lower the MTTH for the negative improvement removal affects, and raise the MTTH for their placement events. Maybe have clergy power related to the moneylenders.

Not exactly sure how to mod text, though, as it seems to be contained in some big excel-openable file (A csv? I didn't catch the extension), and while it should be possible to mod it I'm not sure how to actually distribute that. I think BOPACK and whatnot added no text, so...

Is there a modding tutorial anywhere? I'm finding bits and pieces of information on the event scripting forum and by just prodding around, but nothing centralized, and that forum seems a bit dead, anyway.

Also interested in what specifically DV adds, especially in terms of scripting.

--- edit---

Put some ideas I had up on nopaste. Effects should also have various positive and negative trait chances for the ruler I guess.

Also I can't think of any good events that would cause royal prerogative. Maybe something associated with having a high prestige and high enough stats to manage a large personal demesne? Or certain traits? Nobody you controlled would ever try to force it on you.

Maybe something like, if you're energetic, proud, selfish, or zealous, you'll keep getting events to switch to RP if you're past a certain prestige threshhold.

Anyway, ideas. http://pastebin.com/m376896c0

---edit2---

Just found a PDF discussing new things in DV. If I'm serious about persuing these law change events I might wanna pick that up because some of the new features look like they could lead to fuuuun things.

It's also not exactly clear to me whether or not BOPACK and SMACK and DVIP do anything to address these issues either, so if any of my ideas are redundant...

---edit3---

More thought experiments! Someone mentioned making it easier for RP rulers to revoke titles. While you can't do this with events as far as I know, I think it would be possible to write an event that only happened under RP, where you could get a free claim on any vassal that got disloyal enough. Unless you already have immediate claims on vassals or something.

 

[Damocles]

Peasant power can definitely be checked, but not loyalty, IIRC.

It can however, check for stuff like if a province is struggling, revolting, etc.

 

[unmerged(94161)]

Peasant loyalty can be checked. Not taxation, although as loyalty is more or less just a factor of the current tax rate...

What's odd is that I set the event to fire via the console, and I discovered that, no, I COULDN'T just instantly set the law back to Feudal Contract. Weird. I thought you could change the law as often as you wanted, but apparentl you have a five year limit.

Anyway, given how the game works, I can force law change events pretty easily based on the current pop power/loyalty values in the *capital* province. Doing province wide stuff would be trickier to balance. Theoretically, I'd just have the power/loyalty get checked as a province event and then set off the law change event for the ruler of the province (I can do that, right?) While in one sense this would work pretty well because it'd mean that, at least in theory, if multiple provinces have the balance of power to force a law change, you're more likely to see it. On the downside, I don't want multiple law change events happening at the same time and I'm not sure if you can do "If this event is already firing don't fire it again" things.

 

[unmerged(76802)]

What about tying it more to the ruler's traits/stats? A strong or power-mad ruler would push for Royal Prerogatory while a weak or gentle ruler would allow the Feudal Contract to flourish.

I'm not quite sure what the other two laws are supposed to represent, but maybe a Midas Touched or similar ruler would prefer Traditional Custom as it favors the merchants. As for Popular Law...maybe a highly pious ruler goes for it against the greedy worldly landowners and moneylovers?


Once thing that needs to change, though, is frequency of events for RP and FC. In FC you'll get the "a vassal is pleased with your totally awesome rule" event twice a month at least (usually referring to the same vassal), pumping your prestige way up. On the other hand, with RP you'll get "a vassal is being a whiny little punk" all the damn time until the realm either explodes (I had every single vassal leave me in one bad civil war) or you switch to FC and the vassals start kissing your buttocks.

 

[unmerged(94161)]

What if RP, instead of being a beneficial government that someone would sanely choose, is something that gets forced on your if you have a particular set of characteristics/traits that will cause you to want to make a huge power grab? And in that case RP is more something bad that just sort of happens that you have to deal with?

---edit---

In any case, until I can properly figure out how to do government stuff, I'm going to modify the original Thieves Guild Forms in X events to taken noble power into account. Same for arable lands deserted/reclaimed events with peasants. That's pretty easy to do.

That makes sense to me, from a logical standpoint. Peasants have less power, fewer people are going to want to be peasants, and thus aren't going to be farming as much. Give the pop... power thing a more salient... salientness.

Hopefully I don't invalidate everything I do whenever I end up getting DV.

One idea I'm kind of playing with is this: I have it set up so giving nobles a lot of power means that they're more likely to root out Thieves Guilds/Robbers/Smugglers for you.

So, let's say you get a Thieves Guild, and want them removed. You set the noble power really high for awhile.

Let's say I build the law change system on top of this. So, during this time, before they catch the Thieves Guild, they force you to change the law to Feudal Contract. All is well and good since Feudal Contract is pretty good, except now the peasants and burghers are mad at you because they get taxed more under FC.

You can't DIRECTLY do class warfare, but I think this could lead to some interesting setups where you get *by proxy* class warfare type situations. Maybe throw in some events where nobles demand more goods/food/support from the peasants if they get too much power, and you can side with one group or the other, with large loyalty hits to whoever you side against. Just some ideas really.

---edit2---

It looks like Popular Law decreases the MTTH for positive agricultural events. Current factor is .9. Lowering it a little bit more might make PL more attractive in times of strife.

---edit3---

Okay, here's the event to make peasants force a law change if they get too much power in your capital. Plan is to make two more, for PL and FC, and then a related pair of events that... cause revolts in provinces if they don't like the current government.

Not really tested this yet and the syntax on the CSCs might be wrong. Also if anyone has any suggestions for other modifiers, I'm open to hear it.

#########################
#Peasant Law Change Demand
#########################
character_event = {
	id = 70011

	trigger = {
        condition = { type = ruler }
        condition = {
        	type = or
			condition = { type = has_law value = { royal_preorgatory_law  = yes } }
			condition = { type = has_law value = { feudal_contract_law  = yes } }
		}

	condition = {
            	type = capital
            		condition = { type = peasant_power value = 0.3 }
		}

	}

	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 12

		#######################################################
		# Peasant power affects MTTH for this event.
		#######################################################

		modifier = {
			condition = { type = capital
				condition = { type = not value = { type = peasant_power value = 0.4 } }
			}
			factor = 1.0
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = capital
				condition = { type = peasant_power value = 0.4 }
				condition = { type = not value = { type = peasant_power value = 0.5 } }
			}
			factor = 0.95
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = capital
				condition = { type = peasant_power value = 0.5 }
				condition = { type = not value = { type = peasant_power value = 0.6 } }
			}
			factor = 0.9
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = capital
				condition = { type = peasant_power value = 0.6 } 
				condition = { type = not value = { type = peasant_power value = 0.7 } }
			}
			factor = 0.85
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = capital
				condition = { type = peasant_power value = 0.7 }
				condition = { type = not value = { type = peasant_power value = 0.8 } }
			}
			factor = 0.8
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = capital
				condition = { type = peasant_power value = 0.8 } 
				condition = { type = not value = { type = peasant_power value = 0.9 } }
			}
			factor = 0.7
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = capital
				condition = { type = peasant_power value = 0.9 }
				condition = { type = not value = { type = peasant_power value = 1.0 } }
			}
			factor = 0.6
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = capital
				condition = { type = peasant_power value = 1.0 }
			}
			factor = 0.5
		}
	



    	###############################
    	# Stewardship affects MTTH. (Note: Burghers go off intrigue. Nobles, martial).
    	###############################

		modifier = {
			condition = { type = not value = { type = stewardship value = 4 } }
			factor = 0.5
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = stewardship value = 4 }
			condition = { type = not value = { type = stewardship value = 7 } }
			factor = 0.8
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = stewardship value = 10 }
			condition = { type = not value = { type = stewardship value = 14 } }
			factor = 1.1
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = stewardship value = 14 }
			condition = { type = not value = { type = stewardship value = 16 } }
			factor = 1.3
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = stewardship value = 16 }
			condition = { type = not value = { type = stewardship value = 18 } }
			factor = 1.6
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = stewardship value = 18 }
			factor = 2.0
		}
			

    	###############################
    	# Traits affect MTTH.
    	###############################
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = arbitrary }
			factor = 0.8
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = charismatic_negotiator }
			factor = 1.2
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = court_education }
			factor = 1.1
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = cruel }
			factor = 0.8
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = decietful }
			factor = 0.8
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = forgiving }
			factor = 0.8
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = generous }
			factor = 1.1
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = honest }
			factor = 1.2
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = just }
			factor = 1.3
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = maniac }
			factor = 0.2
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = schizofrenia }
			factor = 0.2
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = selfish}
			factor = 0.8
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = valorous }
			factor = 1.2
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = wise }
			factor = 1.4
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = inbred }
			factor = 0.6
		}

    	###############################
    	# Province improvements increase MTTH.
    	###############################
		modifier = { 
			condition = { type = capital {
				condition = { type = has_improvement value = { court_of_justice  = yes } }
			}
			factor = 1.1
		}
	}

    	###############################
    	# Event effect.
    	###############################

	}

    	action_a = { # Give into their demands.
		ai_chance = 40
		effect = { type = prestige value = -50 }
		effect = { type = set_law value = traditional_custom_law  }
		effect = {
			type = random
			chance = 50
			effect = { type = add_trait value = generous }
		}
		effect = {
			type = random
			chance = 25
			effect = { type = add_trait value = coward }
		}
		effect = {
			type = random
			chance = 25
			effect = { type = add_trait value = stress_symptom }
		}
	}

	action_b = { # Handle situation diplomatically.
		ai_chance = 30
		effect = { type = gold value = -100 }
		effect = { type = add_province_effect value = revolt  }
		effect = {
			type = random
			chance = 50
			effect = { type = add_trait value = trusting }
		}
		effect = {
			type = random
			chance = 25
			effect = { type = add_trait value = charismatic_negotiator }
		}
		effect = {
			type = random
			chance = 25
			effect = { type = add_trait value = stress_symptom }
		}
	}
	
	action_c = { # Crush them!
		ai_chance = 30
		effect = { type = prestige value = 20 }
		effect = { type = add_province_effect value = revolt  }
		effect = {
			type = random
			chance = 25
			effect = { type = remove_improvement value = court_of_justice  }
		}
		effect = {
			type = random
			chance = 50
			effect = { type = add_trait value = proud }
		}
		effect = {
			type = random
			chance = 25
			effect = { type = add_trait value = cruel }
		}
	}
}

 

[Lt. Tyler]

Having just playing with Royal Prerogative for a hundred years, and then switching to Feudal Contract, there is actually a benefit to RP that hasn't yet been discussed.

That is, when you grant someone a ducal/prince title, in Feudal Contract, any counts in their region that are part of your kingdom, will have their allegiance switched to their new duke/prince. Thus, assuming you're the King, they are now your rear vassal (i.e., a vassal of your vassal).

That can make conquering a rebellious vassal more difficult, given their independent power base. Of course, you can keep the duke/prince at a 1 province demense, to make reconquering easier. And you will get fewer attempts to break free in the first place. Still though, it's useful to know when considering the pros and cons.