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aylo1

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Hey all!

Curious to find out why the Ottoman Empire didn't end up conquering the Danubian Principalities of Moldavia & Wallachia. They managed to conquer the Near East, North Africa & just about all the Balkans but these two small states. Was it the mountainous terrain??? I know they exercised suzerainty over them by why not outright??

Aylo1
 
It wasn't worth the hassle, that's why. Had these lands been rich and had there been a lot of taxes to be earned from the Wallachian peasants, no doubt the Turks would have tried something. But since that wasn't the case (region is mountaneous, much colder in winter than the sunny Aegaeis or Istanbul and it's poor) and since aesthetical borders isn't something countries really see as a worthwile goal, they let them remain sort of independent. The Turks did, however, throw out the local dynasties at some point and replace them with Ottoman Greeks.

And there's also the story about how Vlad Dracul of Wallachia grossed out the Turkish when they came to conquer his land... :D
 
aylo1 said:
Hey all!

Curious to find out why the Ottoman Empire didn't end up conquering the Danubian Principalities of Moldavia & Wallachia. They managed to conquer the Near East, North Africa & just about all the Balkans but these two small states. Was it the mountainous terrain??? I know they exercised suzerainty over them by why not outright??

Aylo1

Wallachia could not be called mountaineous. I haven't been to Moldova.
 
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Karl Martell said:
And there's also the story about how Vlad Dracul of Wallachia grossed out the Turkish when they came to conquer his land... :D

Exactly - they fought like hell to keep a worthless chunk of land. In addition IIRC the Poles frequently fought the Ottomans, and were probably the real reason why they were never conquered - any time the Ottomans got close to conquering these areas they would border on the Polish state and become a threat.

Edit - a direct border with Poland would have been a threat to the Ottomans too - maybe both sides were happier having a 'no mans land' between them to prevent things from getting to heated while they were occupied with other matters.
 
gagenater said:
...maybe both sides were happier having a 'no mans land' between them to prevent things from getting to heated while they were occupied with other matters.

But doesn't Hungary have a border with Poland (medieval one that is) so why did Suleiman I conquer it?? I know Habsburg Austria claimed it because the Ottomans did, but I've never seen any definitive reason for Ottoman expansion towards Vienna.
 
aylo1 said:
But doesn't Hungary have a border with Poland (medieval one that is) so why did Suleiman I conquer it?? I know Habsburg Austria claimed it because the Ottomans did, but I've never seen any definitive reason for Ottoman expansion towards Vienna.
But the Ottomans and Habsburgs agreed to trisecting Hungary, one part going to Austria, one part to the Ottomans, and a third part remaining as much independent as Moldavia and Wallachia.

-Pat
 
It's hard to give only one reason why they weren't conquered. They may have served as buffer states for a period, but this argument can't be the true motive and can't be extended for the entire period of Turkish domination. While Moldavia was situated between the Ottoman Empire and Poland, the Turks did have a common border with the Poles further east. Also, Wallachia is nowhere near Poland. It was indeed situated between Turkey and Hungary, yet so were Serbia and Bosnia, which were eventually occupied.

One reason may be the Danube, which forms a nice defensible border. Another may be that it was quite profitable for the Ottoman Empire just to receive an anual tribute, without having to pay for an occupation force to pacify the locals. In fact, it's possible that this was the only profitable option. IIRC, the revenues obtained by the Turks from occupied Hungary were less than the money needed for garrisoning the province, so that territory was actually a drain on the budget.

A third reason may be the boyar class. They were quite happy to live in state vassal to the Turks, having as ruler a weak prince (this state of affairs maximized their autonomy), but were strongly against an annexation to the Ottoman Empire. So they were ready to support a strong prince if the Ottoman danger increased, but were equally ready to betray that prince and install an weaker one after the danger subsided. I think their preferences, from worst to best, were as follows: state occupied directly by the Ottoman Empire; independent country with a strong prince; vassal country with a weak prince. An example for this trend is the 1462 Ottoman campaign in Wallachia. In the initial stages, Vlad Tepes managed to force the Turks to retreat south of The Danube, but after that, the boyars betrayed him and he was replaced as prince by his brother.

Geography may have played a part, too, in preserving the autonomy of the two romanian principalities. They are covered mostly by plains, but they do have mountains in the region opposite to the Turkish border, mountains which form a convenient place to retreat to before launching a counterattack. Also, Transylvania is just beyond those mountains, better protected and able to supply help.

That's all I can think of for the momment.

And a minor correction:
Karl Martell said:
And there's also the story about how Vlad Dracul of Wallachia grossed out the Turkish when they came to conquer his land... :D
I think you're talking about Vlad Tepes, known in the West as Dracula. Vlad Dracul was his father. All of Vlad Dracul's descendents took the surname Drăculea, including his son, incidentally also named Vlad. The Hungarian nobles in Transylvania couldn't pronounce his surname, so they changed it into Draculia (or Draculya?). Later, the "i" or "y" was dropped and so we have the name Dracula.
 
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aylo1 said:
But doesn't Hungary have a border with Poland (medieval one that is) so why did Suleiman I conquer it?? I know Habsburg Austria claimed it because the Ottomans did, but I've never seen any definitive reason for Ottoman expansion towards Vienna.
The north and the west of Hungar was under Habsburg sovereignity while the center and the south were Ottoman and the East (transylvania) was like moldovia and wallachia under ottoman protection:as you can see there were no border between Poland and ottoman and only between transylvania and poland
 
Poland became a vassal of OE when at one point Ottoman Sultan was appointing his candidates as Polish kings (mostly from their ally French royal family).
 
Tunch Khan said:
Poland became a vassal of OE when at one point Ottoman Sultan was appointing his candidates as Polish kings (mostly from their ally French royal family).

WTF? :wacko:

To the topic: Moldavia was an Ottoman vassal IRL. Turkish army advancing toward Podolia had to cross tha country every time...
 
Buffer states are good. Close frontiers are bad.

Looking at the Hungarian example is instructive, for the first thing both sides did was depopulate the lowland plains to create a de facto buffer state.

If Moldavia & Wallachia had been annexed, they would have to be depopulated. No question about it. The Ottomans would not have risked allowing those packs of towns and villages to become a source of headache on their own account, and, more troubling, ready suppliers for an invading army from Poland or elsewhere. They would have become a veritable highway (with replenishment stops) into the Ottoman heartland.

So long as they were independent vassals, those states could reasonably turn down any Polish request to pass through them and that's that.
 
Moldavia and Wallachia were quite rich until the 17th century. All the Ottoman accounts talk with pride about the way the two principalities were feeding the capital with sheep, honey, grain etc...

But the reason why Moldavia and Wallachia were set in the "House of Peace" diplomatic option of the Ottomans was their position and nature. While the Balkans had been home of numerous kingdoms, empires, states for so long, the romanian land had been a "no-man's land" from the third to the 14th century. The dense, lush forests surrounded everything... it was not easy to enslave a country that has so many options of resistence in face of a foreign invader (think Armenia Minor, in which armenian princes resisted until the 18th century as rulers). The few times the ottomans actually tried to conquer the zone were unsuccessful due to rebellions and decent leaders.

It was more feasible to attach the country economically to your realm. While the first centuries of independence (XIV-XVI) saw the two principalities in a "western" frenzy, after that more and more princes looked at Istanbul for all their needs.
 
pithorr said:
WTF? :wacko:

To the topic: Moldavia was an Ottoman vassal IRL. Turkish army advancing toward Podolia had to cross tha country every time...
I mentioned that information to make it clear that OE didn't actually need any buffer regions between herself and Poland. Poland had become an Ottoman vassal state in 1575, but cancelled her vassalization by 1587. On top of that Poland started messing with the affairs of other Ottoman vassals, Wallachia, Moldova and Transylvania which resulted in further Ottoman campaigns and Poland's second vassalization in 1621. With this agreement, Poland was also required to pay tribute to the Khanate of Crimea along with Ottoman Empire.

When Poland marched against the Cossacks around Podolia, who were under the protection of Ottomans, Mehmed IV declared war on Poland in 1672 and following the war, a peace settlement resulted in Podolia becoming Ottoman territory. Also Ukraine was left to the Cossacks and Poland agreed to continue paying tribute to Crimea.
 
Tunch Khan said:
I mentioned that information to make it clear that OE didn't actually need any buffer regions between herself and Poland. Poland had become an Ottoman vassal state in 1575, but cancelled her vassalization by 1587. On top of that Poland started messing with the affairs of other Ottoman vassals, Wallachia, Moldova and Transylvania which resulted in further Ottoman campaigns and Poland's second vassalization in 1621. With this agreement, Poland was also required to pay tribute to the Khanate of Crimea along with Ottoman Empire.

When Poland marched against the Cossacks around Podolia, who were under the protection of Ottomans, Mehmed IV declared war on Poland in 1672 and following the war, a peace settlement resulted in Podolia becoming Ottoman territory. Also Ukraine was left to the Cossacks and Poland agreed to continue paying tribute to Crimea.

Tribute doesn't mean Poland was Tatar or Ottoman vassal. It just means the peace was bought to secure that border for a while. Standard practice in that time for huge countries being constantly bitten by a bunch small agressive robber neighbours :)

And what a crazy idea for 1575? Poland under Stefan Batory to be Ottoman vassal? What kind of history are you to represent? :wacko:
 
pithorr said:
And what a crazy idea for 1575? Poland under Stefan Batory to be Ottoman vassal? What kind of history are you to represent? :wacko:
Steven Bathory was also prince of Transylvania and so a Turkish vassal (but only for that country). That must be what caused the confusion. But, of course, considering Poland as a Turkish vassal for this reason would be like saying England was a French vassal just because its kings were also dukes of Normandy. :)
 
bogmih said:
Steven Bathory was also prince of Transylvania and so a Turkish vassal (but only for that country). That must be what caused the confusion. But, of course, considering Poland as a Turkish vassal for this reason would be like saying England was a French vassal just because its kings were also dukes of Normandy. :)
And in this time, Poland was the the main power in eastern Europe, and she just brokethe russian wave of Ivan grozny to the baltic.
 
pithorr said:
Tribute doesn't mean Poland was Tatar or Ottoman vassal. It just means the peace was bought to secure that border for a while. Standard practice in that time for huge countries being constantly bitten by a bunch small agressive robber neighbours :)

And what a crazy idea for 1575? Poland under Stefan Batory to be Ottoman vassal? What kind of history are you to represent? :wacko:
Sorry that was my bad, I used a wrong source with the wrong date. Ottoman-Polish relations reach it's peak during the 17th Century. But the tribute was an annual sum that was paid. So it's outside the European feudal practice of vassalization but signifies a different sort of subjugation.
 
The fact is that the 'pre modern' empire... does not have the standarising mission that modern nationalising states have... society is organisated corprately...
they do what is practical... rather than follow a 'nationalising logic....'
when the Ottomans removed the Romanian princes they replaced them with Greeks....
 
Kurdistani said:
...when the Ottomans removed the Romanian princes they replaced them with Greeks....

To my understanding that wasn't much better than using native princes. I believe because of the Orthodox connection, many of the Greek Pharnariots colaborated with Russia against the Sultan\Padishah. The only benefit I could think was the Greeks who wanted the position heavily bribed the Sultan meaning the Porte presumably got twice as much income.

As for the confusion over the Ottoman-Polish vassalage, 'tribute' in this case is similar to reparation of the expenses of war.

In regards to Alexandru H.'s comments on attaching a nations economy to your realm, I assume is similar to modern day globalisation. But for the Danubian Principalities I'm not aware of any benefits they'd derive besides peace from the Ottomans. They could just as easily acted as satellite states of Poland or Russia (they did later on).
 
Kurdistani said:
...when the Ottomans removed the Romanian princes they replaced them with Greeks....

To my understanding that wasn't much better than using native princes. I believe because of the Orthodox connection, many of the Greek Pharnariots colaborated with Russia against the Sultan\Padishah. The only benefit I could think was the Greeks who wanted the position heavily bribed the Sultan meaning the Porte presumably got twice as much income.

As for the confusion over the Ottoman-Polish vassalage, 'tribute' in this case is similar to reparation of the expenses of war.

In regards to Alexandru H.'s comments on attaching a nations economy to your realm, I assume is similar to modern day globalisation. But for the Danubian Principalities I'm not aware of any benefits they'd derive besides peace from the Ottomans. They could just as easily acted as satellite states of Poland or Russia (they did later on).
 
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