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We've both seen that, contrary to what you pretend, French soldiers could vote... so this point is already answered and proven you wrong. French soldiers could vote as soon as they were regularly registered and able to move to the polling station to vote (there is no postal vote in France).

No, we've already seen that contrary to what you pretend, they could vote provided they weren't called to active duty. In other words, if you were called (or pressed) into active service, you lost your right to vote for the duration of that service despite retaining French citizenship.

Black American were citizens in 1921 and could vote as soon as they regularly registered on electoral lists and were able to send their ballots (if postal vote existed then) or to go to the polling station.

Which, as I have explained several times, was in practice nigh impossible for the majority of blacks in the US prior to the 1960's. It's like suggesting that the DDR was a democracy because it called itself such and had multiple parties represented in Parliament.

I fail to understand how nominally allowing all men the right to vote but then having the right to register to vote be based on subjective criteria like property, taxation or "literacy" (US) is any different to nominally allowing all men the right to vote provided they meet certain property-owning criteria. (UK) You have consistently failed to engage this point, except only by resorting to the empty sophistry of statements like: "well prisoners, minors and animals can't vote, so clearly no state has universal suffrage."
 
Even universal manhood suffrage wouldn't be absolute universal suffrage... It would lack adult women (if your use of manhood exclude them), human children, non-human lifeforms, artificial intelligences and juridical persons to say the least. It would also lack adult male men who would had seen their civil and civic rights suspended by Justice.
So, if you wait for an absolute universal suffrage before agreeing that there is universal suffrage, then I fear for you that you'll never see universal suffrage in any part of the known universe for all your life span... which make me rejoice as I do not feel that every individual is legitimate to vote in a said political community.

Universal suffrage, by the way, do not mean that every thing and every one have right of suffrage but that the universality of citizens, id est the people, have right of suffrage, and that was what had the United States and France way before the United Kingdom. qed.

The point is that it does not even meet the criteria of universal manhood suffrage, much less universal suffrage.

If "The people" can be defined to exclude those who actually live in the country, then it ceases to have meaning: At that point you might just as well claim that any absolute monarchy was a democracy, they just had a very limited definition of "The Peoplle".
 
If "The people" can be defined to exclude those who actually live in the country, then it ceases to have meaning: At that point you might just as well claim that any absolute monarchy was a democracy, they just had a very limited definition of "The Peoplle".

A hyper efficient direct democracy at that. :ja:
 
“Ankh-Morpork had dallied with many forms of government and had ended up with that form of democracy known as One Man, One Vote. The Patrician was the Man; he had the Vote.”
 
No, we've already seen that contrary to what you pretend, they could vote provided they weren't called to active duty. In other words, if you were called (or pressed) into active service, you lost your right to vote for the duration of that service despite retaining French citizenship.

Nope, If they were called or pressed into active service, they could vote provided they asked a leave (and get it) for the voting Sunday so they could freely go to the polling station where they were regularly registered, as it is explicitly stated in the organic law. The mean time of a leave, in peace time, is one week-end per week, so that isn't very hard to get the opportunity to go to vote. In war time, there is obviously less opportunities of leave. In 1916, one soldier in active service had a right of seven days of leave each four months, granted that his units wasn't doing an offensive, that is not much and not something that one would waste just for voting, but... wars stay the exception. Especially in your 1921 example.

I fail to understand how nominally allowing all men the right to vote but then having the right to register to vote be based on subjective criteria like property, taxation or "literacy" (US) is any different to nominally allowing all men the right to vote provided they meet certain property-owning criteria. (UK)

At last! I asked you what were registration requirements and you -up to know- didn't cared to give them... So I consistently engaged the point that registration, in itself, isn't something that goes against universal suffrage... If the registration requirement explicitly and exclusively required property or taxation, it was a tax-based voting, and if it needed literacy, it was a capacity based voting.

Might you give me legal examples of such registration requirement please?

You have consistently failed to engage this point, except only by resorting to the empty sophistry of statements like: "well prisoners, minors and animals can't vote, so clearly no state has universal suffrage."

Funny to read that from someone who argued that there was no universal suffrage because movable goods were not allowed to vote :rolleyes: ;). What is the status of a non-human animal, mind you? Yes, a movable good (I've never stated that animals can't vote, as one animal, homo sapiens, can vote in most representative regimes, granted it respect other criteria). The example of slaves is exactly the example of animals. If there is "empty sophistry", I fear it happened as soon as your first reaction.

In fact there is no sophistry, there is only an arbitrary -and quite irrational, IMHO- try, by you, to make objects "inside" and others "outside" what is considered good to be part of the people. Exactly what had been done, in previous times of representatives regimes. Exactly what we still do it now in our current representatives regimes.

Not understanding that citizenship is, by definition, a concept that include some and exclude others, is not understanding what is citizenship.

[by the way, Prisoners can vote in some states (like France, albeit a significant number of them are forbidden to vote in the United Kingdom as far as I know [the UK condemnation for that by the European Court of Human Rights is well know]).

Minor can't vote in all representatives regimes I've heard of.]

If "The people" can be defined to exclude those who actually live in the country, then it ceases to have meaning: At that point you might just as well claim that any absolute monarchy was a democracy, they just had a very limited definition of "The Peoplle".

Then "universal suffrage" according to your definition (I disagree with) didn't exist, never existed, and will probably not exist for the next thousand years at last, if not never.
 
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I can't believe you two are still arguing over that silly technicality of whether French soldiers in the third republic were allowed to vote and if it really counts as universal suffrage if they weren't.
 
I can't believe you two are still arguing over that silly technicality of whether French soldiers in the third republic were allowed to vote and if it really counts as universal suffrage if they weren't.

I can't believe this thread was once about Pericles.

Nope, If they were called or pressed into active service, they could vote provided they asked a leave (and get it) for the voting Sunday so they could freely go to the polling station where they were regularly registered, as it is explicitly stated in the organic law. The mean time of a leave, in peace time, is one week-end per week, so that isn't very hard to get the opportunity to go to vote. In war time, there is obviously less opportunities of leave. In 1916, one soldier in active service had a right of seven days of leave each four months, granted that his units wasn't doing an offensive, that is not much and not something that one would waste just for voting, but... wars stay the exception. Especially in your 1921 example.

So if they weren't granted leave then what?

At last! I asked you what were registration requirements and you -up to know- didn't cared to give them... So I consistently engaged the point that registration, in itself, isn't something that goes against universal suffrage... If the registration requirement explicitly and exclusively required property or taxation, it was a tax-based voting, and if it needed literacy, it was a capacity based voting.

So in other words, if some citizens in some states weren't allowed to register to vote due to property, taxation or "literacy" requirements, then:

That's. Not. Universal. Suffrage.

Might you give me legal examples of such registration requirement please?

Sure.

[by the way, Prisoners can vote in some states (like France, albeit a significant number of them are forbidden to vote in the United Kingdom as far as I know [the UK condemnation for that by the European Court of Human Rights is well know]).

Some peers can't vote either. I think we adults of the Paradox fora can distinguish between 800 or so people not being able to vote because they have a seat for life in the House of Lords which they voluntarily take and can voluntarily resign at any time, or murderers who decide to flout societal obligations by killing people, way, and denying suffrage to an entire demographic based solely on their skin colour or legitimate, state-sanctioned profession.

Minor can't vote in all representatives regimes I've heard of.]

16 year olds can vote in Scotland.
 
So if they weren't granted leave then what?
Then they are not able to materially put their ballot in the ballot box, just like ill individuals who are advised to not leave their bed by their physician...
Nothing that go against universal suffrage. Just like the need for soldiers stay in their barracks or in their units, outside cases of leaves, doesn't mean that their army's territory doesn't enjoy freedom of movement.


Not as precise as the article of law I had given you previously, but thank you anyway! Seem, reading the article, to be somewhat specific to post-civil war southern States. Have you similar cases of tax-based or capacity-based requirement to registration for northern States and for pre-civil war southern States?

Some peers can't vote either. I think we adults of the Paradox fora can distinguish between 800 or so people not being able to vote because they have a seat for life in the House of Lords which they voluntarily take and can voluntarily resign at any time, or murderers who decide to flout societal obligations by killing people, way, and denying suffrage to an entire demographic based solely on their skin colour or legitimate, state-sanctioned profession.

Indeed, that is exactly why it is foolish to use the case of some soldiers who had to stay in their units or in their barraks, which only happen to be significant in war times, to pretend that there is no universal suffrage (or freedom of movement).

16 year olds can vote in Scotland.
And in Austria too... indeed, I know at last two places where they could vote... but the philosophical weirdness of it make it a quite exceptional case.
 
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Not as precise as the article of law I had given you previously, but thank you anyway! Seem, reading the article, to be somewhat specific to post-civil war southern States. Have you similar cases of tax-based or capacity-based requirement to registration for northern States and for pre-civil war southern States?

I had posted that link before, actually.

Poll taxes existed in a number of northern states, but the south gets the most attention from political scientists because it's bound up with the other Jim Crow laws.

Here is a copy of the 1842 Rhode Island Constitution. (Article II on pages 10-11 outlines voting requirements.) The poll tax provision wasn't repealed until 1951.
Here is an article from 1941 discussing the then-contemporary attempts to repeal poll taxes in Massachusetts and California, in addition to the southern states.

Finally, Here is a general article from a conservative think-tank explaining how poll taxes were considered constitutional prior to 1964 despite them quite clearly being unconstitutional by any fair reading of the 15th Amendment.