I asked it on reddit and I found two cases where I become feudal, but no one has definite answer there
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The screenshots on those reddit posts are not detailed enough to allow me to say anything other than what they already said over there: It looks like something went wrong, so you were transformed into feudal to avoid a "game over".
If you want a more detailed answer, please upload a save. (Eg: "If you load this save and kill the player character with the console then he is transformed from MR into feudal" or "If you load this save and reject your liege's ultimatum then the player character is transformed from MR into feudal".)
It's also worth noting that you're clearly using some mods. (Looks like Patrum Scuta and one of the bigger interface mods.) You didn't include your modlist, or say that "this is achievement-enabled ironman", so we can't rule out the possibility that one of the other mods you're using has an error which is causing the problem. (Or that you did something unwise with the console.)
If you want a more detailed answer, please upload a save. (Eg: "If you load this save and kill the player character with the console then he is transformed from MR into feudal" or "If you load this save and reject your liege's ultimatum then the player character is transformed from MR into feudal".)
It's also worth noting that you're clearly using some mods. (Looks like Patrum Scuta and one of the bigger interface mods.) You didn't include your modlist, or say that "this is achievement-enabled ironman", so we can't rule out the possibility that one of the other mods you're using has an error which is causing the problem. (Or that you did something unwise with the console.)
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Hello, sorry I didn't have a save, because I played ironman with achievement enabled, and I dont have any backups before becoming Feudal, I do use mods that dont interfere with achievement compatibility, such as patrum scuta (ironman version) and bigger interface mode, my checksum is still SOHY, cheers
what I want to know is what kind of stuff can turn a Merchant Republic to Feudal? so I can avoid them
Feudal characters are not allowed to be successors, so that's out if the equation.
The first looks like you are revolting against the emperor.
I ony recall geting a game over due to turning and apparently remaining feudal as a simple merchant family
when i used a claim war CB or such against the doge, but that as an unsual thing and done as a mere patrician.
Shouldn't happen when revolting as doge against the top liege.
That said, republics are a bit buggy due to devs changing and not being able to read and understand the script
and code earlier devs did, but i digress...
Why does it say that you got a revolt title ?
Did the succession take place during the revolt ? Maybe that.
Hmm...
IF you elaborate a bit on the game situation or if several times on all of these situations when that happened, then we might have a better idea.
The first looks like you are revolting against the emperor.
I ony recall geting a game over due to turning and apparently remaining feudal as a simple merchant family
when i used a claim war CB or such against the doge, but that as an unsual thing and done as a mere patrician.
Shouldn't happen when revolting as doge against the top liege.
That said, republics are a bit buggy due to devs changing and not being able to read and understand the script
and code earlier devs did, but i digress...
Why does it say that you got a revolt title ?
Did the succession take place during the revolt ? Maybe that.
Hmm...
IF you elaborate a bit on the game situation or if several times on all of these situations when that happened, then we might have a better idea.
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Well, if you check the list here, and include the restriction that your primary title was unchanged, there are only three options:
- "Non-coastal capital on succession"
- "Console commands"
- This includes mods, since you haven't said your game is unmodded...
- This includes mods, since you haven't said your game is unmodded...
- "Something so unknown it's not in this list"
- This is quite possible, because MRs are rather buggy. (As per @Aardvark Bellay 's post.) And they're not frequently-played either, so it's quite possible that your unique playstyle means you consistently encounter a rare glitch.
- I for one would be happy to investigate the issue (repeatable government-switching glitches are interesting, even if MR->feudal is one of the least directly useful). But I'm going to need more details - hence my request for a save file.
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- Certain revolt situations, but unclear to me as i haven't played republics for a long time.
- When you lose your capital county, gets revoked, lost in a war or such and the game moves your capital to an inland county.
Republic capital counties need to be coastal.
- During succession i can ony imagine a possibility when the game fails to recalculate a succession properly on-time, as in situation of heirs
changed between last succession calculation and actual death moment. Maybe where a feudal reative lost his last possble feudal heir
and the game decides that to hand that guy, until then republican heir, to the feudal family or the other way round, but then remains heir
for both titles or so. In very rare situations potentially possible, theoretically, but only a very wild guess by me. Brainstorming.
What's sure either way is that it's better to not have landed feudal reatives when you play a merchant family to exacty precvent inheritance
issues. I have seen some weird things happening to the AI family that rules Sardinia in the early bookmarks, but have republican relatives.
PS for info: Post was written before i could see Jonjowett having posted again.
In the revolt pic, I revolted against my liege because he sent me an imprisonment ultimatum, I dont exactly know when I become feudal, but both the HRE emperor and me are both republics, and no succession took place in between my transition to Feudal, sorry I cant give any save as I play ironman and have no backups,
Aha !
The emperor was also a republic......What !!!??
1)
a) How came that to be ?
b) Did you use cheats/consolecommands ?
c) Was that also the case in the other campaign you played where you turned feudal ?
2)
Merchant republics can't have other merchant republics under them as (direct) vassals, as far as i recall, only standard republics
without patrician families and all the features. It might be possible in fringe cases unti the doge of the vassal republic
changes or such, so that would fit your second thread with the succession situation, but i don't know.
I conclude so far, we have the ' internal republican revolt' and the 'two republics and one as vassal of the other' situation leading
to a possible and tome likely explanation for that first case, but maybe not for the second case/reddit thread.
Jonjowett will maybe know more...or guess better.
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In the second thread, where you speak of the change during suscession, its second picture i can see you being independent.
Did you also revolt there or had another merchant republic as your liege at some point?
IF not, then that is likely another cause than in your first posted reddit thread.
Did you also revolt there or had another merchant republic as your liege at some point?
IF not, then that is likely another cause than in your first posted reddit thread.
The game absolutely forbids one MR from being a direct vassal of another.
So, yeah, if you become the doge of a MR as the vassal of a MR then... something will happen. Be glad the game made you feudal instead of giving you a game over, I guess.
How do you become doge of a MR as the vassal of a MR? I can think of a few possible ways:
So, yeah, if you become the doge of a MR as the vassal of a MR then... something will happen. Be glad the game made you feudal instead of giving you a game over, I guess.
How do you become doge of a MR as the vassal of a MR? I can think of a few possible ways:
- (Probably not applicable in this case) Be duke-tier doge of a MR, under a feudal king, who is under a MR empire. Become a direct vassal of the MR empire somehow, which will immediately dissolve your MR.
- Eg1: Rebel against your feudal king.
- Eg2: The MR empire revokes your liege's kingdom.
- (Probably not applicable in this case) As an independent Doge, be vassalised by another Doge.
- Eg1: As a player, you can easily do this to yourself by swearing fealty... but it's also rather rare for players to swear fealty.
- Eg2: Lose a de jure duchy war, while having no holdings outside that duchy.
- (Complete Speculation:) Be a patrician in a MR, and rebel against your Doge in any way that does not give you independence.
- NB: It's almost impossible to rebel against a Doge, because he is not permitted to take any hostile actions against his vassals (ie. you) unless he has justification, and title revocation plots are prohibited, and factions are prohibited, etc etc.
- Maybe if the Doge has a good reason to imprison you, or if he has a claim on one of your titles?
- (Speculation:) When the rebellion starts, your family is ripped out of the MR and a new one is immediately generated to take its place.
- (Speculation:) During the rebellion, you have a temporary title which probably allows you to temporarily form your own MR.
- If, after the rebellion is over, you become a vassal again, then your temp MR is dissolved because it would be a MR vassal of a MR.
- NB: It's almost impossible to rebel against a Doge, because he is not permitted to take any hostile actions against his vassals (ie. you) unless he has justification, and title revocation plots are prohibited, and factions are prohibited, etc etc.
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umm, I am just a patrician below him, Im not a MR by my own right, in case how the HRE become MR well, I Invaded the HRE at some point, and lose it at succession
and yea, these two cases are different
and yea, these two cases are different
Okay, the Outremer situation seems quite straightforward: Your capital moves to Jerusalem upon you taking the decision, and Jerusalem is not a coastal county, so you cannot be a merchant republic any longer. The game realizes something is wrong (as it is supposed to), deletes your family palace because you shouldn't have one (because you're not a merchant republic), and then checks for the first government type you're eligible for, which happens to be the Feudal government type (I imagine the county capital was a castle; if it had been a city or a temple, you could have gotten the Republic or Theocracy government (respectively) and thus a game over).
The devs clearly didn't consider that MRs were an edge case here and that either they should be prevented from taking the decision or they should be an exception to the capital move part of the decision... and it's potentially got the more severe secondary side-effect of possibly game-overing any player patricians since they stop being vassals of an MR, and they could be landless, baron-tier, or forced into a government type that they're not eligible for.
As for the other situation, a quick test with some console commands confirms that if a patrician revolts against an MR their liege will get the "A new family" event right after... and that the patrician's government type changes (in the case I tested they had a city as their capital holding, so they got the Republic government type) after they revolt and remains unchanged after the revolt ends (I used the console to imprison them and force a white peace, to have a similar case). I'd imagine you had a castle capital, which would have made you Feudal instead of a Republic (and thus prevented the instant game over).
There are two issues here:
- The patrician losing the government type when the war starts (and not regaining it when the war ends). Depending on hardcode order of operations for the war declaration (When is the temporary title created? When is the government validated? When is the family palace destroyed? When does the on_add block for the CB get executed?), it may or may not be possible to make the patrician remain a patrician during and after the war through some script-side changes to how the MR government is set up... though there's a chance of that having the side-effect of them being considered a proper merchant republic and creating patricians of their own, which could result in further issues.
- The new patrician family created to replace them. At the very least, the MR UI might break if there's a sixth family around, and the republic in question might operate a bit weirdly with an extra family around. Since the "A new family" event seems to be hardcoded (I couldn't find it in script, at least...) it'd be hard to set up a "Get rid of this family when the revolt ends" solution (and such a solution might be side-effecty if they should end up in control of the MR due to winning an election; unlikely, but an edge case is how this whole situation happened in the first case...).
The devs clearly didn't consider that MRs were an edge case here and that either they should be prevented from taking the decision or they should be an exception to the capital move part of the decision... and it's potentially got the more severe secondary side-effect of possibly game-overing any player patricians since they stop being vassals of an MR, and they could be landless, baron-tier, or forced into a government type that they're not eligible for.
As for the other situation, a quick test with some console commands confirms that if a patrician revolts against an MR their liege will get the "A new family" event right after... and that the patrician's government type changes (in the case I tested they had a city as their capital holding, so they got the Republic government type) after they revolt and remains unchanged after the revolt ends (I used the console to imprison them and force a white peace, to have a similar case). I'd imagine you had a castle capital, which would have made you Feudal instead of a Republic (and thus prevented the instant game over).
There are two issues here:
- The patrician losing the government type when the war starts (and not regaining it when the war ends). Depending on hardcode order of operations for the war declaration (When is the temporary title created? When is the government validated? When is the family palace destroyed? When does the on_add block for the CB get executed?), it may or may not be possible to make the patrician remain a patrician during and after the war through some script-side changes to how the MR government is set up... though there's a chance of that having the side-effect of them being considered a proper merchant republic and creating patricians of their own, which could result in further issues.
- The new patrician family created to replace them. At the very least, the MR UI might break if there's a sixth family around, and the republic in question might operate a bit weirdly with an extra family around. Since the "A new family" event seems to be hardcoded (I couldn't find it in script, at least...) it'd be hard to set up a "Get rid of this family when the revolt ends" solution (and such a solution might be side-effecty if they should end up in control of the MR due to winning an election; unlikely, but an edge case is how this whole situation happened in the first case...).
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Well, that'll teach me for trusting the wiki. I checked the underlying code, and this does indeed happen, so I've updated the relevant wiki entry.
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Ah i didn't know about the forced capital change.
Found it now as well in the decision file.
Good to know that my internal republic revolt experience/theory was confirmed.
Cheers
Ahh thanks for the insights, I asked like everywhere and no thorough answers are found except here, cheers
If there are 6 (or more) families in a republic when the doge gets succession then the oldest family will lose their merchant palace. It might be random, but I am fairly certain my testing showed it was the oldest family. I am surprised that a revolting patrician loses their family palace and stuff. I could swear that when I tried and failed to imprison patrician vassals as the doge they still showed up in the republic UI during the war, so that must have gotten changed at some point.
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Just a note but there should be another way to get converted from Merchant Republic to Feudal: If you heir is Feudal and is of the same rank or higher than you then when he inherits he will stay Feudal. I've converted from Tribal to Feudal this way by making my heir Feudal and of the same rank - should work the same for MR I believe. So when a character inherits a title of the same rank or lower his/her government type does not change. If they inherit a higher title their government type changes to that of the higher title.
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I am fairly certain that MRs have a specific "your heir cannot be a landed feudal". You can get your landed mayor relative to inherit, but not a feudal relative.
I have inherited from feudal relatives who had seniority (since the doge tends to be the oldest member of a Dynasty). Maybe you are inheriting a higher tier feudal title.