Why I think mix use is a bad idea in a city builder

[croxis]

I have found city builder players to fall in one of two camps. The first camp "play" city builders as a digital painting. They hand plop everything, use cheats to make the simulation easy so their vision sticks, and create visually awesome things. Think creative mode in Minecraft. The other camp is very much about the gameplay and interacting with the simulation. And of course many have a foot in both. I'm in the gameplay camp.

Also I love mixed use in real life.

I'm engaged in a game when I get to make interesting choices (thanks Sid!). In Civilization a city can only build one thing at a time. I have to make a bunch of choices. Military or improvement? If military should I build ranged or a ship? If a building should I go science or money?

In Sim City(1-5) I got a spot of land and I have to make a choice on what I am going to put there. R, C, I? Or should a police station go there instead? If it is R or C or I I'm going to have to also make sure the transportation network can handle the extra load. Sim City 2013 city size was a serious problem for making anything that looked like a city, but I will admit that I actually did enjoy the gameplay from the restriction. I couldn't be lazy with my design and I was really engaged where and when I built things.

If there was mix used why, as a player, *wouldn't* I use it? My downtown core, where it should be cramped and tough to decide and design and get everything to fix, would all be mix use. I don't have to worry about traffic or transportation, most of the people would be working in the building they live in. And if I get to decide what kind of mix use? I would make each building 50/50 RC. Bam! No traffic.

But I love the real life implications of mix use buildings, and would love to explore more modern/european urban development gameplay. How would you make mixed use work but still keep land use decision making interesting?

 

[Alex24]

In Sc4 I am in the gameplay camp, but in CXL i am in the "digital painting" camp, because it does not have a good simulation.

Actually I think mix use is a good thing if you implement them in a realistic way. Mix use buildings are usually less efficient than single use buildings (e.g. pedestrian zone shopping <> shopping centers), in a shopping center you can get almost everything, in pedestrian zones you have to go from shop to shop to get it done. There could be something like a demand for shopping centers, business districts,....

 

[JPGM22]

You can ploppable the buildings, if people will live there or not is another story. Ploppable buildings can be done with gameplay and zoning in a mix of options, not only for "digital painting"


I suggested this in the forum:
"Buildings: There should be buildings of various categories:

- Residential: 3 densities (low, medium and high) and three social classes (poor, middle and rich). Each building shall have a capacity of residents. If the building is empty, it is abandoned and over time degrades. If on the contrary the number of residents exceeds the limit, the building can also be degraded and suffer a diminished quality of life, its beauty, increase the risk of fire, become more vulnerable to earthquakes ... Maintenance costs of buildings will have to increase if the player wants to keep the building in good condition. Otherwise the building could collapse after a few years.

- Commercial: This category is also divided into 3 densities and 3 levels of wealth and 2 subcategories: Commerce and Offices. Both provide jobs, however the buildings of commerce provide the service of selling goods to the population. These buildings can only be abandoned because they only have limit of number of employees.

- Mixed: This category is typical of European cities. This category contains only 2 densities (medium and high) and means that they are buildings that on the ground floor have shops or offices and residences on upper floors. There may be combinations: shops - residences, shops - offices or offices - residences. These buildings such as residential, may be abandoned or overloaded, since they have resident's limit. They provide jobs off course.

- Industrial: This is divided into 3 subcategories: Agriculture, Manufacturing and High Technology. They have 3 levels of density. In agriculture the player builds the farm and delimits the area for crops. Traditional farming does not cause any environmental impact, but intensive agriculture (produce more) cause pollution of the waters. The factories produces goods which have to be exported (for cargo ships, trains or trucks (trucks causes a great impact on traffic, so that a large industrial core, is preferably more efficient with infrastructures as the train or ports). The travel time of workers also influences the yield of the factories and the quality of life for workers. construct an industrial area far from the city without exist good transportation will cause the illegal construction of slums (where the workers live.) Another solution is player to build labor neighborhoods near industrial zones, but only live on these poor workers. factories produce pollution which affects the health of the population nearby and the beauty of the environment. high-tech industries do not cause any impact on nearby but need good conditions to thrive.


Building mode: The game should have options for zoning and construction building-by-building. For zoning the player should be able to choose what type of architectural buildings (French, German, Latin, Chinese, Indian, American or all ...) want to build in that area. For the creation of European cities, where the blocks are fully filled with buildings in a continuous; I suggest the following mechanism: The player defines the block with roads and then have two possibilities: either zoning or building to building. But basically, the buildings have the ability to adapt to the shape of the road (if this be curved or angles) and the spaces between the buildings are filled with extensions of the own buildings, somewhat as they seek to add up each others to fill in the missing spaces. In building-to-building mode should exist various options of buildings for angle roads (right, acute, obtuse ...) and these buildings adapte to the degree of the angle formed by the two roads. The player in the building-by-building mode should be able to disable or anable this property of the buildings. Thus it is possible to build a European-style city of two ways; by zoning or building each building individually. Please take CIM 1 for some inspiration. I love her cities and their european atmosphere, and historical evolution from 1920 to 2020. "

 

[Alex24]

You can ploppable the buildings, if people will live there or not is another story. Ploppable buildings can be done with gameplay and zoning in a mix of options, not only for "digital painting"


I suggested this in the forum:
"Buildings: There should be buildings of various categories:

- Residential: 3 densities (low, medium and high) and three social classes (poor, middle and rich). Each building shall have a capacity of residents. If the building is empty, it is abandoned and over time degrades. If on the contrary the number of residents exceeds the limit, the building can also be degraded and suffer a diminished quality of life, its beauty, increase the risk of fire, become more vulnerable to earthquakes ... Maintenance costs of buildings will have to increase if the player wants to keep the building in good condition. Otherwise the building could collapse after a few years.

- Commercial: This category is also divided into 3 densities and 3 levels of wealth and 2 subcategories: Commerce and Offices. Both provide jobs, however the buildings of commerce provide the service of selling goods to the population. These buildings can only be abandoned because they only have limit of number of employees.

- Mixed: This category is typical of European cities. This category contains only 2 densities (medium and high) and means that they are buildings that on the ground floor have shops or offices and residences on upper floors. There may be combinations: shops - residences, shops - offices or offices - residences. These buildings such as residential, may be abandoned or overloaded, since they have resident's limit. They provide jobs off course.

- Industrial: This is divided into 3 subcategories: Agriculture, Manufacturing and High Technology. They have 3 levels of density. In agriculture the player builds the farm and delimits the area for crops. Traditional farming does not cause any environmental impact, but intensive agriculture (produce more) cause pollution of the waters. The factories produces goods which have to be exported (for cargo ships, trains or trucks (trucks causes a great impact on traffic, so that a large industrial core, is preferably more efficient with infrastructures as the train or ports). The travel time of workers also influences the yield of the factories and the quality of life for workers. construct an industrial area far from the city without exist good transportation will cause the illegal construction of slums (where the workers live.) Another solution is player to build labor neighborhoods near industrial zones, but only live on these poor workers. factories produce pollution which affects the health of the population nearby and the beauty of the environment. high-tech industries do not cause any impact on nearby but need good conditions to thrive.


Building mode: The game should have options for zoning and construction building-by-building. For zoning the player should be able to choose what type of architectural buildings (French, German, Latin, Chinese, Indian, American or all ...) want to build in that area. For the creation of European cities, where the blocks are fully filled with buildings in a continuous; I suggest the following mechanism: The player defines the block with roads and then have two possibilities: either zoning or building to building. But basically, the buildings have the ability to adapt to the shape of the road (if this be curved or angles) and the spaces between the buildings are filled with extensions of the own buildings, somewhat as they seek to add up each others to fill in the missing spaces. In building-to-building mode should exist various options of buildings for angle roads (right, acute, obtuse ...) and these buildings adapte to the degree of the angle formed by the two roads. The player in the building-by-building mode should be able to disable or anable this property of the buildings. Thus it is possible to build a European-style city of two ways; by zoning or building each building individually. Please take CIM 1 for some inspiration. I love her cities and their european atmosphere, and historical evolution from 1920 to 2020. "

that would be a combination of sc4 and cxl, which would be awesome.

regarding the residentials: would it be like in cxl: low wealth + high density zone or like in sc4: low density + wealth depends on various factors? I prefer the second one

 

[Inge Jones]

Land value kind of factors into density too (as well as decisions made by the mayor or town planning committee). Cos if land is expensive, developers are going to want to build the maximum units per metre of land, while if land is cheap, developers may feel the property will be more attractive if it is better spaced out with more outdoor space around it, and they will just buy more land to create their development in.

 

[slornie]

If on the contrary the number of residents exceeds the limit, the building can also be degraded and suffer a diminished quality of life, its beauty, increase the risk of fire, become more vulnerable to earthquakes ... Maintenance costs of buildings will have to increase if the player wants to keep the building in good condition. Otherwise the building could collapse after a few years.

Hang on, why should I, as Mayor of the city, be responsible for maintenance costs on private dwellings or other structures (based on player zones and then the AI builds)? Unless this applies only to structures built directly by the player.

 

[Monty84]

I think the "mixed building 0 traffic bug" would be as easy to fix as not allowing citizens live and work on the same building. In real life only a extremely small fraction of population lives and work in the same building.

 

[JPGM22]

I think the "mixed building 0 traffic bug" would be as easy to fix as not allowing citizens live and work on the same building. In real life only a extremely small fraction of population lives and work in the same building.

Or doing a 75/25 or 80/20 RC instead of 50/50.

 

[JPGM22]

Hang on, why should I, as Mayor of the city, be responsible for maintenance costs on private dwellings or other structures (based on player zones and then the AI builds)? Unless this applies only to structures built directly by the player.

No, I mean, In "healthy" conditions the building don´t need mantenance. Only if empty or overcrowded

 

[onodera]

I do not think it should be possible for the player to set the level of wealth on either residential or commercial zones. Density is something we as a mayor can regulate, but wealth will be regulated by the market. Good police, good schools, good jobs? The wealth increases. The other way around? Enjoy your shanty town.

Of course, there are always exceptions: projects/council housing as well as rent control, but subsidized housing should be something the player should pay for.

 

[Kimberly]

A good simulation will not allow you to exploit mixed use development. Consider, for example, an apartment building in my area that is currently being constructed. The bottom of it will have shops, the rest of the high-rise will be residential. The land value is high, and the building marketed to higher-income people. The stores will probably cater to them. Could some of them work at the store? Sure, but only a few people; there's only so much room for commercial service space. A lot of of the residents wouldn't want to work in a low-income job like that, though. You could replace part of the living space with offices...but the residents probably wouldn't work in that office space, because they're not educated enough--due to its location, most of the residents are students.

I think mixed use is hard to do well and is somewhat lazy urban planning, but nevertheless has serious limitations that can make it fit in a video game.