Why is the map scope of China hegemony unreasonable?

[strattonthebard]

Ultimately de jure borders are more of a useful fiction for gameplay reasons than a reflection of historical reality, and particularly on the peripheries there's lots of room for judgement calls based on what seems best for game mechanics. I think Annan being part of de jure empire for south China is a reasonable enough call but excluding it would also be a fair choice, same with the far western reaches of the Tang, either choice has a fair amount of historical validity.

If Paradox was trying to claim that only the yellow river valley was de jure China and not the Yangtze or something obviously wrong like that then the historical arguments would matter but I think for the fringes gameplay considerations should dominate, and we don't necessarily know enough about how the de jure map will shape gameplay in the region to effectively weigh those considerations.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Ultimately de jure borders are more of a useful fiction for gameplay reasons than a reflection of historical reality, and particularly on the peripheries there's lots of room for judgement calls based on what seems best for game mechanics. I think Annan being part of de jure empire for south China is a reasonable enough call but excluding it would also be a fair choice, same with the far western reaches of the Tang, either choice has a fair amount of historical validity.

If Paradox was trying to claim that only the yellow river valley was de jure China and not the Yangtze or something obviously wrong like that then the historical arguments would matter but I think for the fringes gameplay considerations should dominate, and we don't necessarily know enough about how the de jure map will shape gameplay in the region to effectively weigh those considerations.

Why would it be fair to include far western tang claims? Given they wouldnt be a concern for song, yuan, or ming, with qing only taking some

 

[strattonthebard]

Why would it be fair to include far western tang claims? Given they wouldnt be a concern for song, yuan, or ming, with qing only taking some

The historical ownership and recency of loss at the start date? I personally don't think they should be included but I don't think it's unreasonable to think they should be and if there was a useful gameplay result from doing so it would be totally fair.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

The historical ownership and recency of loss at the start date? I personally don't think they should be included but I don't think it's unreasonable to think they should be and if there was a useful gameplay result from doing so it would be totally fair.

But why should that make it de jure part of the hegemony, instead of just pressed claims on the starting emperors?

 

[strattonthebard]

But why should that make it de jure part of the hegemony, instead of just pressed claims on the starting emperors?

I think either would be fine

 

[darthfanta]

Why would it be fair to include far western tang claims? Given they wouldnt be a concern for song, yuan, or ming, with qing only taking some

The locals in the Tarim Basin actually did look towards Chinese leadership. IOTL, they(especially their kings, one king even personally left his throne to his brother to personally fight for the Tang Dynasty during the Anshi Rebellion) remained loyal and fought for the Tang Dynasty decades after they were cut off from mainland China. They only fell after a valiant struggle against the Tibetans.

Even in the Song era, the Khitans of Western Liao were able to impose rule in the region largely by pretending to be a legit Chinese emperor and borrowing the prestige of Chinese customs and cultural practices.

As for the actual Song Dynasty, they did actually try to go Westward as well. They were blocked by the Tanguts, but they tried to open their own way west by conquering parts of Tibet to cut their way to the Tarim Basin. They formed the Longyou Protectorate as a result of this attempt. They just collapsed from Jurchen invasions before they went further west.

 

[FondMemberofSociety]

So let's re-examine the hegemonic territories of Rome, India, and Arabia

Chill, they aren't released yet, and the devs haven't even said they would do an Arabic hegemony.

In fact, the Tang Dynasty had stronger control over Vietnam than Byzantine had over Bulgaria

Depends on when you ask ...

fall into a contradiction that the Yan dynasty set up a commandery not an administrative facility on the their mainland, which existed right next to the capital, and that the Han dynasty did not unify China until around the first century B.C

>Somehow, administrative units should be set up without regard to local conditions
>Somehow, not controlling certain borderlands means you cannot proclaim you have united an empire
Seriously though, what term are you translating "commandery" from?

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

Gaogouli or Gojoseon is built by Fuyu peoples. They're a group of tribes i.e. ethnicities. Modern Korea and Japan both belong to Fuyu peoples. Korea is one ethnicity of Fuyu peoples

Is "Fuyu" a Chinese name for the Altaic speakers? Google shows me one of the small Turkic ethnicities

 

[CrazyRat]

Is "Fuyu" a Chinese name for the Altaic speakers? Google shows me one of the small Turkic ethnicities

I am pretty certain neither Korean, nor Japanese are anything like Altaic languages (and the post you quoted would presume these people are Fuyu), though.

(Otherwise, it may be just that the term just reflects Chinese grouping of some ethnicities rather than their shared roots / linguistic properties / etc.)

Edit: also: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puyŏ_languages - there is Fuyu in pinyin there.

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

I am pretty certain neither Korean, nor Japanese are anything like Altaic languages (and the post you quoted would presume these people are Fuyu), though.

(Otherwise, it may be just that the term just reflects Chinese grouping of some ethnicities rather than their shared roots / linguistic properties / etc.)

Altaic in this sense:

Altaic languages - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[berjui]

>Somehow, administrative units should be set up without regard to local conditions
>Somehow, not controlling certain borderlands means you cannot proclaim you have united an empire
Seriously though, what term are you translating "commandery" from?

Liaodong Commandery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's just a direct import of Wikipedia. It might have gotten the meaning weird because I used a translator. Sorry.

 

[berjui]

Is "Fuyu" a Chinese name for the Altaic speakers? Google shows me one of the small Turkic ethnicities

Buyeo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Fuyu is considered to be a reference to Buyeo in China. They were Yemaek people and share many similarities with Goguryeo, and Goguryeo's founder, Chumong (King Dongmyeongseong), was a member of Buyeo's royal family, but it is said that he escaped from Buyeo due to a conflict over succession with the seven princes of Buyeo, founded Goguryeo, and named his surname Ko.

Although there are not many records left, Buyeo is also known as a very important country in ancient Korean history.

 

[darthfanta]

Liaodong Commandery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's just a direct import of Wikipedia. It might have gotten the meaning weird because I used a translator. Sorry.

Back in those days, the administrative division of the Chinese was county -> commandery for every area. They would implement a province level during the Han Dynasty to turn the administrative structure to a three tier county ->commandery->province structure later on.

 

[Pvt.0120]

Is "Fuyu" a Chinese name for the Altaic speakers? Google shows me one of the small Turkic ethnicities

It's a Chinese name indeed. It means Buyeo languages. I didn't find this English name before.

 

[FondMemberofSociety]

Liaodong Commandery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's just a direct import of Wikipedia. It might have gotten the meaning weird because I used a translator. Sorry.

Don't worry, it's a small problem, I just wanted to check terms to avoid confusion.
The commandery is an administrative facility. As wikipedia states, it was a normal administrative division used throughout China during the Warring States to Han eras.