Why is the map scope of China hegemony unreasonable?

[zeruosi]

I’ve noticed an error in the depiction of a river system on the map.

The claim that the Yi River (沂河) flows eastward into the sea is incorrect. This channel is actually a man-made waterway constructed after the founding of New China, known as the New Yi River (新沂河). Although before the Yellow River’s diversion into the Huai River in 1139, the Yi River had occasionally flowed into the sea through this unstable channel due to sedimentation in its lower reaches, this was only one of its two main outlets. It still had another channel that joined the Si River (泗河), which then flowed into the Huai River together.

After the Yellow River diverted into the Huai River, the lower reaches of both the Yi River and the Si River were silted up by the Yellow River, forming the Luoma Lake (骆马湖). The water then redirected eastward, merging with the Yi River to form yet another unstable channel.

However, regardless of the specific route, the main course of the Yi River could still be considered a tributary of the Huai River before the fall of the Ming Dynasty. The map should not depict the river system as it exists after 1949.
View attachment 1312128
View attachment 1312130
This is the modern main channel of the Yi River (沂河). It's evident that the lower reaches are clearly an artificial waterway.
View attachment 1312131
This map shows the modern drainage system of the Yi, Si, and Mu Rivers (沂泗沐). The lowest channel at the bottom is the abandoned Yellow River course—what was once the lower reaches of the Huai River.
View attachment 1312132
The red line roughly corresponds to the river system during the Ming Dynasty
View attachment 1312133
The red line represents the main river network during the Northern Song Dynasty.

volthe92
Which part of my statement are you disagreeing with? Am I just pointing out a factual error about a river's course, or are you blindly clicking 'X' simply because I'm Chinese?

Take this person for example - they gave me a thumbs-down on every single response I gave, including when I was simply discussing river systems. I mean, that's just plain stupid

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Vietnam, like other provinces, was a domestic province of the Chinese Empire for thousands of years before the Northern Song Dynasty

I don't think France is a province of England besides the Anjou Empire——And even during the Anjou Empire period, it did not possess the entire France

What other types of provinces are there, than domestic provinces?

Speak for yourself.If you want a Vietnam that is similar to history, then it’s got to be one that constantly struggles for independence against it’s northernly neighbour.

It is going to struggle to keep a unified china happy with just tribute, if its a push over to conquer southern china from vietnam, then that would be the devs failing too

Arguments like yours more or less fails to account for why the Abbasid Caliphate has claims over Egypt and the rest of Arabia etc in 867 start when historically it loses control of such regions forever and became only nominal superiors of the Arab world. Yet in game they still have de jure claims over much of the Arab world. Yet there’s no complaints about that. Nobody said that the devs have failed.

The anarchy at samarra being so poorly represented, and the ai regularly moving their capital to arabia from baghdad is a common complaint on the forum. The tulunids being egyptian culture, despite being relatively fresh from the steppe, has also long been complained about.

Okay, perhaps we should listen to each other's opinions, such as making the Tarim Basin a resolution that allows the Chinese dynasty to integrate it into the scope of China hegemony after occupying it.
Perhaps Roman hegemony could also be like this. After Byzantium gained control of Italy, it could rebuild Roman hegemony and use resolutions to integrate it into Roman hegemony when controlling Egypt, Africa, or Gaul. I think this may make the process of rebuilding Rome more interesting, just like gradually rebuilding Roman rule in various provinces.

But regarding the Gansu and Liaoning regions, it is clear that the vast majority of people have no opinion. The discussion of the whole post is totally focused on the Tarim Basin, which is not what I want to see.

The westernmost point of the black line extends to the westernmost point of the Great Wall, namely Jiayuguan, while the easternmost point is the border between Liaoning and Korea, with the entire northern border just following the Great Wall.

The scope of the black line may be relatively reasonable, as the ruling methods of Chinese dynasties in these areas were the same (establishing administrative institutions step by step), but different from those outside the black line (establishing protectorates). And these regions were predominantly inhabited by Han Chinese, even during the Ming Dynasty, they were the core areas of the Chinese dynasty.

The most important point is that if the scope of China's hegemony does not even include the Great Wall, it sounds very strange, doesn't it?

As for Vietnam, I think it can be treated separately in 867 and subsequent years. In 867, the northern part of Vietnam was included in China hegemony, but not later.
Like the Tarim Basin, it can be added to China hegemony by resolution after the Chinese dynasty conquered it. Vietnam itself could also establish the Vietnamese Empire after conquering Champa in the south.


The above is basically my proposal after reading everyone's opinions, which may or may not solve most problems. But this proposal may be easier to accept than the initial suggestion.

If this suggestion seems too colorful, emmm, you are right XD.

if you include northern vietnam in the chinese hegemony in 867, its not likely to result in its 1066 outcome. As the empire tier is below the hegemony tier, the empire of vietnam should be in from game start, rather than a decision.
Decisions to add the tarim basin and northern vietnam to china's de jure would be too op. Rome absorbs the de jure of any other empire titles you hold at the time of formation, just like how forming a custom empire absorbs any de jure kingdoms you hold at the time

 

[Basiluca]

There is no China Empire, unified China is hegemon tier, there are qin, liang, shu, wu, and yue as empires in China currently. We await to see if paradox caves for everyone getting their own hegemony, whether vietnam is put under an indochinese wide hegemony or something else.

But can the decision still be taken if the duchies are titular?

And before it was conquered by the Han? Or between the Tang and the Ming? Were those merely a few rebels?

Saying theyre not very different to other groups, who themselves are not chinese, and speak a language unrelated to chinese, you're not giving a good reason to include them in the hegemony

"Always our siblings" sounds more like chinese nationalist rhetoric than actual history

Because you have no idea about the actual history, but only illusions about some exotic and homogenized country. Before conquered by Han? What the Crotia or Albania is before Rome conquered? Nothing but stories. Even the stories are also created on the base of Chinese legends.

In the history, many minorities are not speaking Chinese in daily life but also live as normal citizens under the order of China, they spoke and used some kind of Chinese in most formal situations. Not only Vietnam, but also Hmong, Zhuang, Yi, and most of them became a part of Han people finally, that's the history.

Vietnam people construct their history with Chinese legends and thought of they are southern part of China, that's also why "nam".

China is much larger than your imagination.

 

[tribnia]

Maybe some could be done with the phases of the celestial empire? Like if you choose to be an expansionist, Nearby kingdoms and even empires becomes part of your de jure hegemony so you would have proper CBs to conquer them. When falls into unrest these areas shall break away.

 

[Basiluca]

There is no China Empire, unified China is hegemon tier, there are qin, liang, shu, wu, and yue as empires in China currently. We await to see if paradox caves for everyone getting their own hegemony, whether vietnam is put under an indochinese wide hegemony or something else.

But can the decision still be taken if the duchies are titular?

And before it was conquered by the Han? Or between the Tang and the Ming? Were those merely a few rebels?

Saying theyre not very different to other groups, who themselves are not chinese, and speak a language unrelated to chinese, you're not giving a good reason to include them in the hegemony

"Always our siblings" sounds more like chinese nationalist rhetoric than actual history

If you think modern ideology should decide the history reversely, like you can decide who your dad is, then Ireland of course is not a part of Britain, and Nepal, Bengaladesh and Pakistan etc are also not a part of India, they all have different identities

 

[DiabloDeVille]

If you think modern ideology should decide the history reversely,

Did you misread '"Always our siblings" sounds more like chinese nationalist rhetoric than actual history'? I'm saying that history should decide how the game works.

like you can decide who your dad is, then Ireland of course is not a part of Britain, and Nepal, Bengaladesh and Pakistan etc are also not a part of India, they all have different identities

Given ireland is part of brittania's de jure, I'm not sure what relevance this has to our discussion.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Because you have no idea about the actual history, but only illusions about some exotic and homogenized country. Before conquered by Han? What the Crotia or Albania is before Rome conquered?

Considering Croatia (sic) and Albania only appear in history long after Rome fell in the West, I'm really not sure what you're talking about.

Nothing but stories. Even the stories are also created on the base of Chinese legends.

But does appropriating legends from other cultures mean that your culture does not exist?

In the history, many minorities are not speaking Chinese in daily life but also live as normal citizens under the order of China,

If you revolt to gain independence, and then styilise the status quo ante bellum as foreign occupation, you might not be a normal citizen.

they spoke and used some kind of Chinese in most formal situations. Not only Vietnam, but also Hmong, Zhuang, Yi, and most of them became a part of Han people finally, that's the history.

The Hmong are still quite distinct, even if the other groups sinicised quite well

Vietnam people construct their history with Chinese legends and thought of they are southern part of China, that's also why "nam".

China is much larger than your imagination.

How large is China then? How large do you think China is in my imagination?

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Maybe some could be done with the phases of the celestial empire? Like if you choose to be an expansionist, Nearby kingdoms and even empires becomes part of your de jure hegemony so you would have proper CBs to conquer them. When falls into unrest these areas shall break away.

If it becomes part of your de jure hegemony, it wouldn't likely break away during the cycle of unrest (which a player can likely easily avoid ever entering)

 

[tribnia]

If it becomes part of your de jure hegemony, it wouldn't likely break away during the cycle of unrest (which a player can likely easily avoid ever entering)

Just use events to switch its de jure hegemony.

 

[20211433gwx]

There is no China Empire, unified China is hegemon tier, there are qin, liang, shu, wu, and yue as empires in China currently. We await to see if paradox caves for everyone getting their own hegemony, whether vietnam is put under an indochinese wide hegemony or something else.

But can the decision still be taken if the duchies are titular?

And before it was conquered by the Han? Or between the Tang and the Ming? Were those merely a few rebels?

Saying theyre not very different to other groups, who themselves are not chinese, and speak a language unrelated to chinese, you're not giving a good reason to include them in the hegemony

"Always our siblings" sounds more like chinese nationalist rhetoric than actual history

It seems that you have no idea about the history of Vietnam at all. Vietnamese has been speaking Chinese for a long time. It was not until the Hu Dynasty (1400-1407) and the Xishan Dynasty (1778-1802) that the Hán Nôm／漢喃 was adopted to replace classical Chinese, and the Chữ Nôm／喃 was designated as the official documents.

 

[zeruosi]

Rome absorbs the de jure of any other empire titles you hold at the time of formation, just like how forming a custom empire absorbs any de jure kingdoms you hold at the time

To be honest, I really hate this. It means that when you form Rome, you can effortlessly turn places that have absolutely nothing to do with Rome—like completely unrelated India, Rome's millennia-old enemy Persia, Arabia, or whatever else—into "Rome."


The custom kingdom and custom empire mechanics offer a degree of freedom, but Rome was a historically attested empire with clearly defined borders. Allowing it to absorb any territory under an imperial title, regardless of historical context, is simply unacceptable.

 

[zeruosi]

If it becomes part of your de jure hegemony, it wouldn't likely break away during the cycle of unrest (which a player can likely easily avoid ever entering)

This is a player's issue, not an AI's problem. Players can effortlessly achieve things that never happened in history—does that mean everything must unfold exactly as it did in the past? If so, Haesteinn should have stayed confined to Europe, Knut's North Sea Empire would have collapsed within a generation, and Rome would be impossible to form.


I could list countless more examples, but the bottom line is: you can't use "players can do X" as an argument to justify why a region historically under an empire's de jure control should no longer belong to that empire in the game.

 

[naq29]

Because you have no idea about the actual history, but only illusions about some exotic and homogenized country. Before conquered by Han? What the Crotia or Albania is before Rome conquered? Nothing but stories. Even the stories are also created on the base of Chinese legends.

In the history, many minorities are not speaking Chinese in daily life but also live as normal citizens under the order of China, they spoke and used some kind of Chinese in most formal situations. Not only Vietnam, but also Hmong, Zhuang, Yi, and most of them became a part of Han people finally, that's the history.

Vietnam people construct their history with Chinese legends and thought of they are southern part of China, that's also why "nam".

China is much larger than your imagination.

Solution: Renaming Yue to Viet - which is the Vietnamese translation of the word Yue.
Vietnamese dynasties did claim descendants to the ancient Yue people and the empire of Nanyue.
Keep Viet Empire (including Guangxi and Guangdong) inside Chinese Hegemony. During the Nguyen dynasty, Vietnamese emperors did claim to be the ruler of China because the Ming "real China" got destroyed by the Qing "barbarians", so Vietnam was the only empire left to be China.
Everyone be happy.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Solution: Renaming Yue to Viet - which is the Vietnamese translation of the word Yue.
Vietnamese dynasties did claim descendants to the ancient Yue people and the empire of Nanyue.
Keep Viet Empire (including Guangxi and Guangdong) inside Chinese Hegemony. During the Nguyen dynasty, Vietnamese emperors did claim to be the ruler of China because the Ming "real China" got destroyed by the Qing "barbarians", so Vietnam was the only empire left to be China.
Everyone be happy.

Why would this make everyone happy? Northern vietnam would still be inside the chinese hegemony, which is the bone of contention

 

[luo]

Why would this make everyone happy? Northern vietnam would still be inside the chinese hegemony, which is the bone of contention

We all agree that northern Vietnam should not be within the scope of China hegemony in 1066.

But you cannot deny that northern Vietnam was indeed under Chinese rule in 867 just because it eventually became independent, just like saying that the Byzantine Empire should not include Italy and Armenia because they lost them forever after the game began.

Debating about AI or gameplay can only conceal the failure of game mechanics, which means that games cannot simulate historical development well, but this is not the reason for modifying history to match gameplay. It is not difficult to separate AI Vietnam and Vietnam players from China hegemony under certain conditions through events or resolutions.

If a historical strategy game discards historical accuracy, it is difficult for me to evaluate the rationality of doing so.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

We all agree that northern Vietnam should not be within the scope of China hegemony in 1066.

But you cannot deny that northern Vietnam was indeed under Chinese rule in 867 just because it eventually became independent, just like saying that the Byzantine Empire should not include Italy and Armenia because they lost them forever after the game began.

Byzantine rule of Sicily and Armenia was alot less fleeting after 867 and 1066 starts than Northern Vietnam was for China. However I'd personally stick Sicily into e_italia

Debating about AI or gameplay can only conceal the failure of game mechanics, which means that games cannot simulate historical development well, but this is not the reason for modifying history to match gameplay. It is not difficult to separate AI Vietnam and Vietnam players from China hegemony under certain conditions through events or resolutions.

If a historical strategy game discards historical accuracy, it is difficult for me to evaluate the rationality of doing so.

I'm not denying it was under Chinese rule, and never did so, I just don't think it should be de jure chinese hegemony in 867, to help it become independent. Historical accuracy is why I think this should be the case.
Also, why does your translator keep translating decisions as "resolutions", can you correct it when it does so please. Using events to make vietnam go independent is a band aid solution, compared to having it organically play out for wrong culture, wrong faith, non de jure.

 

[Lohcoh]

Byzantine rule of Sicily and Armenia was alot less fleeting after 867 and 1066 starts than Northern Vietnam was for China. However I'd personally stick Sicily into e_italia

I'm not denying it was under Chinese rule, and never did so, I just don't think it should be de jure chinese hegemony in 867, to help it become independent. Historical accuracy is why I think this should be the case.
Also, why does your translator keep translating decisions as "resolutions", can you correct it when it does so please. Using events to make vietnam go independent is a band aid solution, compared to having it organically play out for wrong culture, wrong faith, non de jure.

Due to the game rules, we must place it within an empire. It is indeed problematic to place it in the Chinese Empire, but it is even more inappropriate to place it in other empires in Southeast Asia. Many problems in games are handled in this way, although not the best, it is difficult to find a better one.
If you ask Vietnamese people at that time, they may feel that they are somewhat different from Chinese people, but they must feel that they are more different from Southeast Asia.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Due to the game rules, we must place it within an empire. It is indeed problematic to place it in the Chinese Empire, but it is even more inappropriate to place it in other empires in Southeast Asia. Many problems in games are handled in this way, although not the best, it is difficult to find a better one.
If you ask Vietnamese people at that time, they may feel that they are somewhat different from Chinese people, but they must feel that they are more different from Southeast Asia.

AGAIN, there is no chinese empire, there are several chinese empires, with unified china being a hegemony. If paradox thinks that only China, India, and Rome are worthy of being hegemonies, then Vietnam can have an empire (of roughly modern borders), and still be outside of China's hegemony.

 

[Lohcoh]

AGAIN, there is no chinese empire, there are several chinese empires, with unified china being a hegemony. If paradox thinks that only China, India, and Rome are worthy of being hegemonies, then Vietnam can have an empire (of roughly modern borders), and still be outside of China's hegemony.

I think we should discuss based on specific facts. Obviously, that's how Paradox did it.
If you express an inappropriate opinion, you should present your specific facts, and then we can compare the facts.
You cannot simply infer the situation 1200 years ago based on modern national concepts.

Moreover, you may not know that the "YUE Empire" in the game is within the territory claimed by the Vietnamese people today, because the "Nanyue Kingdom" advocated by the Vietnamese at that time was the origin of Vietnam, which was a colonial country established by General of Qin empire with its capital in Guangzhou. （During the Sino Vietnamese War in 1979, this was also political propaganda on the Vietnam side.）

In Vietnamese, vietnam's 【viet】 means 【yue】, which is the name of the "yue empire". Nam is nan, you can try pronouncing it, it's just a different expression of the same Chinese character between two different languages.
Vietnamese people claim Chinese territory, call themselves Chinese, and have ambitions to tame dragons, which is a historical fact.

Perhaps you just can't distinguish between the north and south of Vietnam?

Because the Champa culture in the south belongs to another cultural circle, they do not have much to do with China, and they should indeed belong to another empire outside of China.
But in the year 867 when our game began, the Vietnamese did not advance into Champa. In 1066, the Vietnamese had just launched their first expedition to Champa and were unsuccessful.
Vietnam completely occupied Champa in 1402, when the Middle Ages were almost over.
So in the process of our game, Champa's influence has not yet affected Vietnam. Vietnam does not have a Southeast Asian origin, and their focus is on the north rather than the south.
I have emphasized many facts to you, and you can find them on the wiki encyclopedia. I hope you can also present your own facts.

I hope this is helpful to you.

 

[BoomKidneyShot]

Maybe some could be done with the phases of the celestial empire? Like if you choose to be an expansionist, Nearby kingdoms and even empires becomes part of your de jure hegemony so you would have proper CBs to conquer them. When falls into unrest these areas shall break away.

Why should it become de-jure before you conquer it?

Giving you cheaper CBs and giving a boost to de-jure drift speed seems like a much better approach.