Why is the Starlit Citadel so horribly designed?

[GuardianGI]

Hey lets use weapons with -50% and -75% damage against armor. Bioships don't have armor, right? Also lets put the citadel right next to the portal and put railguns with minimum range limitation, it's not like we have special job that can increase defense station range, right?

 

[Reckall]

I love the narrative of the Starlit Citadel origin. I actually started two games before deciding to wait for more 4.0 fixes (one with a Megacorp - the one that built it - and one with machines, the idea being that the invaders killed all the people on the planet leaving only the robotic workers behind).

My "lore" explanation is that the SLC is a megastructure built out of desperation by a race that was barely reaching the interstellar travel age. It is deeply flawed and imperfect because it was scraped together both fast and with unproven techs. Also, the Citadel was likely built without full knowledge of the invaders' origin and nature, as you only learn about them after the game starts.

 

[Ishyro]

Also, it is good that the Citadel is not enough by default, otherwise you could completly ignore the invaders.

 

[Anzaman]

Well, the Citadel should automatically update the equipment if you change them in the designer over time.

I was using Guardian Matrix and Stalwart Network -civics with Starlit -origin, and never even had to look at the invaders, other than to send scientist to scan the debris.

 

[WhiteBlackLion]

I also think it is very questionable that a citadel is sooo weak and unfavorably equipped.

In my first attempt with the Starlit Citadel, my citadel was simply dismantled by a wave with 2.9k combat power after the 3-4 attack with a combat power of 7k(my Citadel). Even with 3 platforms (S-M, H-P and L-G) the fleet was not completely destroyed. And something like that just 21 years after the start is really unpleasant, also because not enough research could be done and not really much alloy could be produced.

So to come back to the citadel itself, this was built to “protect” against “enemy invaders”. So who builds a fortress with armament that does up to 50%/75% less damage against a recurring enemy? Then I have to agree with the previous speaker , who builds weapons in a fortress that has a minimum range that is already reached after 1/3 of the distance between the entry point and the citadel ?

And then I fight against enemies that do +100% shield piercing damage / +50% armor piercing / +25% hull damage as well as -75% shield / +100% armor / +50% hull damage and +50% shield / -75% armor / +25% hull damage .
And that against a citadel that has just level 1 deflector and 1 nanocomposite armor.

To me as a casual player it just looks like it's unbalanced if I have something that's supposed to protect me from recurring invasions but this fortress can't protect me because it doesn't have the technology or equipment to do so. And if after the 3-4 attack I see how the citadel can no longer withstand the attack and my main planet is bombed next to a newly founded planet, then I definitely see black for the future. Especially when I then cheat a bit to get 3 platforms and see how my 10 corvettes attack the enemy who simply flies out of the system edge (dashed line), only to see how my ships fly circles and no longer come out of the fight. And when I withdrew them, the ships came back as if by magic and attacked again.



The origin really needs to be reworked .

 

[DelphineasSD]

Hey lets use weapons with -50% and -75% damage against armor. Bioships don't have armor, right? Also lets put the citadel right next to the portal and put railguns with minimum range limitation, it's not like we have special job that can increase defense station range, right?

Also let's NOT balance our PD, it's not like that could EVER blow up in our faces!

 

[WhiteBlackLion]

Okay I correct myself the origin needs a revision . I just tested if there are more fleets coming out of the portal and lo and behold now I have a 1.3k and a 3.6k fleet over my home world and that in the year 2229 . So almost 7-8 years after the last attack . Since then my main world has been bombed and is now at 19% devastation so it's going for the enemy . That only 29 years after the start of the game how are you supposed to defeat 2 fleets of 4.9k ? And the ship modifiers are also not without when I read something about 88% weapon damage.


In addition, my unity is zimmlich in the minus just like my energy so I can definitely forget about playing with it.

And since that wouldn't be bad enough, the next fleet with a strength of 4.3k came not after 7 years but after 5 years (2234). I was able to fill a fleet before the 4.3k fleet that has a strength of 1.5k I now leave it to you to work out how big my chances of victory are. And I'll let it run even further .

(just for in between there was another voidworm that was also quickly crushed).

So in the meantime we have arrived at 2242 my main world is dead, if I had only had 1 planet the game would be through now for sure . The fact that the fleet remains above the depopulated world is also questionable, whether this is really how it should be.

I destroyed the 2 weaker fleets to see if a new one would follow and in 2243 a 4.7k strong fleet arrived which is now on its way to my other planet.


As you can see, there was too much scaling up on the opponent and that you get a stronger fleet every 5-7 years if you don't even have enough time to do the right research, which you first have to be lucky enough to have in research to choose from. Once the citadel is gone you can forget the game anyway.

 

[Ishyro]

If you pick unyealding fast enough (2nd tree should be ok), you can pick eternal vigilance and keep it on half funding, which will be enough (with a plateform with lasers at least).
It's probably a tradition and an ascencion perk you wanted to pick anyway with that origin.

 

[stargazersatnight]

Idk who you are trying to fool, space citadels are bonkers strong. I was able to defeat all invaders only having to involve my fleets once.
Maybe research weapons and manually design yours? Or idk build a few defense platforms. You can easily get 100k fleet strength on a citadel by midgame.

 

[WhiteBlackLion]

How are you supposed to choose when you can't stop your opponent after the 3-4th attack? For me it was just enough to unlock 1 tradition and the 2nd tradition was only 1 perk unlocked. And that with the state elements: “Parliamentary System and Diplomatic Corps as well as a Democratic” orientation and the ethics: “Materialistic Militaristic and Egalitarian”.

And for Eternal Vigilance I need either the Tradition of Unyielding or the technology Star Fortress, both of which I didn't have, plus Unyielding didn't bring any resources at the beginning and the citadel itself didn't make it stronger either.

It may be that Eternal Vigilance every 6 months but for the platforms I have to pay maintenance which is not a small amount at the beginning besides the fact that I have no idea which platforms are built when I have several different ones in the designer.

And if the only way I can defend myself fast enough is by combining innegligence and eternal vigilance ONLY you should mark the origin as a challenge or you lure the first tradition on innegligence .

Apart from that, how much fun is a game that I can only play in one way without being defeated ?

 

[stargazersatnight]

How are you supposed to choose when you can't stop your opponent after the 3-4th attack? For me it was just enough to unlock 1 tradition and the 2nd tradition was only 1 perk unlocked. And that with the state elements: “Parliamentary System and Diplomatic Corps as well as a Democratic” orientation and the ethics: “Materialistic Militaristic and Egalitarian”.

And for Eternal Vigilance I need either the Tradition of Unyielding or the technology Star Fortress, both of which I didn't have, plus Unyielding didn't bring any resources at the beginning and the citadel itself didn't make it stronger either.

It may be that Eternal Vigilance every 6 months but for the platforms I have to pay maintenance which is not a small amount at the beginning besides the fact that I have no idea which platforms are built when I have several different ones in the designer.

And if the only way I can defend myself fast enough is by combining innegligence and eternal vigilance ONLY you should mark the origin as a challenge or you lure the first tradition on innegligence .

Apart from that, how much fun is a game that I can only play in one way without being defeated ?

You don't need eternal vigilance. It helps, its not mandatory. Again just build your platforms, and pump out research for better weapons. The invaders are mildy obnoxious at worst.

 

[Reckall]

How are you supposed to choose when you can't stop your opponent after the 3-4th attack?

Are you sure you are building the right fleets? The firepower number in Stellaris is meaningless without proper tactics. I could spoil, but let's say that knowing the nature of your invaders is the first step. Then research the proper military techs.

 

[Ishyro]

You don't need to pick eternal vigilance and unyealding. I proposed it because it's the most basic way to deal with the invaders. And if you don't know wich plateform will be built, even if they have no weapon for some reason, they will be usefull by drawing aggro.
I play the origin as a rogue servitor so I have a lot of unity, but with parliamentary system you should have enough as well. Unyealding is a good econimic first tree anyway, especially now that solar panels are availlable to everyone.

Defense is cheaper/free, but buidling the corvette missile swarm with artillery computer that everyone is complaining about will work as well, so there are multiple ways to handle it. But you have to handle it, so you are indeed forced to touch a bit of military in the early game, when other origins don't need to.

 

[WhiteBlackLion]

Are you sure you are building the right fleets? The firepower number in Stellaris is meaningless without proper tactics. I could spoil, but let's say that knowing the nature of your invaders is the first step. Then research the proper military techs.

I don't know what people expect if you've only been playing for 19 years since the start, but I wouldn't expect you to have researched the entire technology tree in those 19 years. At that time I couldn't build anything more than crovettes and they only had the standard armament level 1 small mass accelerator and level 1 nuclear missiles. For defense I could only build level 1 deflector and level 1 nanocomposite armor. The only good thing I had gotten at the time was the level 2 blue laser.


Even with 3 blue lasers and 3 small nanocomposite armor, the corvettes didn't have enough combat power because I could only afford so much without spending resources.
And here is the result of my fleet of 10 corvettes against the enemy .


I could of course have put the 600 alloy into 3-4 platforms . But then I wouldn't have a fleet to protect and if a voidworm had come, the citadel wouldn't have attacked it because it wouldn't have been in range. And my planet would have been bombed again until my resources were all used up .

 

[WhiteBlackLion]

I have also tried to adjust the citadel.

That didn't help much either .

If I want to build a fleet it is not strong enough , if I want to expand the citadel it does not help me to defend my territory .
So I don't know what to do if I already have problems with the enemies 19 years after the start .
And if only the advancement advantage Eternal Vigilance alone helps, that's not so great either .
I have nothing against enemies getting stronger but only within the right limits.

 

[Thiend]

It would work much better if the default design was just countering the target it is explicitly designed to counter.

Minimum range shouldn't even enter the equation because lasers don't have a minimum range. This is only a problem because it uses kinetic weapons for no clear reason. In addition to helping with that, it would also be directly far stronger against them if it was countering them instead of being countered.

If it ends up being too easy or too hard after that, adjustments can be made to the invaders. But knowing to swap from a terrible design to literally the opposite setup should not be a factor.

 

[WhiteBlackLion]

So I only know that with each wave the weapon damage modification increases by about 5.5%. And that the bio-corvettes with their mandibles have a weapon that is simply effective against everything. Shield is pierced and armor damage is increased by 50% and hull damage is increased by 25%.

Why couldn't you have just said that mandibles initially only do 5% torso damage and 8% armor damage and after each wave these bonuses would have slowly increased with each wave until at some point the shield piercing would have been added.
This way you could also scale the enemies better, not including the ship modification.

There could also be a kind of preliminary stage to the citadel that you have to upgrade 1-2 to get the original citadel. So you could start a little smaller and also have some history when the enemies get stronger and you have to strengthen your citadel.

That would also be a good option, wouldn't it?