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tinello

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Dec 23, 2005
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:mad: i'm playing the first time this mod (2.08)when i enter in war i have seen that italian army is penalized by 1/4 in morale!I disagree with this choice, because this is only a game and all the armies must have the same level of morale; there are the tech trees to advantage or not the army.You have add too many penaltyes to this poor nation.
If i had known...
 
watch out for the big bad Italian army


How many gears does an italian tank have?

1 Neutral
5 Reverse
 
err no? this is a game AND a historical simulation.

you can change history but you'll have to work with reality, and reality provided the italian army with poor leadership, ill organisation and a lack of proper mentality. you can't just change that.
 
How many gears does an italian tank have?

1 Neutral
5 Reverse

Always thought it was bout teh french one. And by the way:

How many French you need to defend Paris against Germans??

Nobody knows as no one has ever tried.
 
General di tuti said:
err no? this is a game AND a historical simulation.

you can change history but you'll have to work with reality, and reality provided the italian army with poor leadership, ill organisation and a lack of proper mentality. you can't just change that.
i think is not true to give 1/4 morale less to the army and increasing national dissent, we can't simulate public opinion on the past choises, the events could be very different from reality.
 
General di tuti said:
err no? this is a game AND a historical simulation.

you can change history but you'll have to work with reality, and reality provided the italian army with poor leadership, ill organisation and a lack of proper mentality. you can't just change that.
I haven't played this mod but I just have to comment on this. The player should definately be able to influence these things, replacing poor leadership with better one and organizing the army better. Mentality is more difficult to influence, but it can be affected too, and in the three years that the player has before the full-scale war starts, the player should be able to fix most of these things.
 
Haukionkala said:
I haven't played this mod but I just have to comment on this. The player should definately be able to influence these things, replacing poor leadership with better one and organizing the army better. Mentality is more difficult to influence, but it can be affected too, and in the three years that the player has before the full-scale war starts, the player should be able to fix most of these things.
:rolleyes: ....exactly
 
As someone mentioned it`s not only a game but also historical simulation.

What could be done is a special event removing this penalty, but at very high cost (dissidents, army strenght loss, and also removal of many leaders).
 
Cerber said:
As someone mentioned it`s not only a game but also historical simulation.

But if we stop at the "historical simulation" why play the game with a nation of the axis knowing their final historic defeat?I want to change history if possible in a game.
 
Fact is none can deny the problems that afflicted italian army in WW2.
To the issues were pretty different, mostly a IC problem than anything else.

Italian tanks weren't that uber just cause Italian factories cannot produce heavy tanks. The P43 Italian *Heavy Tank* was actually a sort of Pz.IV in terms of armor and firepower.
Think the poor Italian IC and tech teams reflect this properly.

About the leadership, yes they had rather poor leaders overall, but troops were good actually. Italian troops had good morale, especially when commanded by germans. They lacked to the proper equipment to compete with UK troops in Afrika (still a matter of IC, not mentality).

About the dissent that's something totally wrong. Italian people liked Mussolini a lot until the late '42 and '43. Just cause the defeat was dooming Italy nowadays. And Italian people is known historically for turning face easily (ww1 and ww2).

Then do whatever you want, but I think the low IC, the poor leaders and tech teams are enough to show the Italian situation without fucking up even more with the troops.
 
Why the italians are penalized

I realize that at first glance, Italy may appear to have been penealized more severly than it indeed does deserve. However, as a student of history and political science, I get to read a large amount of interesting books (boring ones as well, but thats not my point), I recently came across a book called "Hitler's Italian Allies." A military, socio economic study of the italin war effort. A topic it attempted to give an overview of. The situation can only be refered to as Fawlty Towers staring john cleese as Mussolini.

To manage a industrialized society, you need educated people, in 1931-Italy still had 20,9% illiteracy rating. By 1951, it was still at 12,9%
By comparison, it was all but wiped out in germany by 1900.

As for Industrial capacity, 42% of the german workforce was in the industrial, and in italy slightly less than 30%. The major difference however was output.
Germany industrys share of the national product had passed that of agriculture in 1890, whereas Italy only reached the desicive benchmark in 35-40 and slipped back in 1941 and after.

During the war, the Italian armed forces only got 23% of the gross national product.... How is that for a "total war."

Leading up to and during the war, most of the armaments industry was occupied with fraud, and illigal cartels, to svindle the state for the largest amount possible.

The absence of any kind of modern millitary culture, except for to a degree in Piedemont was depressing. In the words of one of the leading army historians: "Italy has never seemed well-inclined toward arms...In reality one must admit that italy has never been well-inclined towards the state, whatever its leadership." The large pesant class, dislikeing authority, and holding no allegiance except to his family and the land of his ancesters, make poor conquerers. A hopeless and fatalistic stubborness to any kind of modernization, can still be seen today in italy.

A national research concil, under the general staff was responsible for directing millitary-industrial research. But it concentrated on autarchic nostrums such as the cultivating of guyule bushes, imported form the US, as a rubber substitute. Potentialy vital research such as radar and Enricion Fermis nuclear work(before he imegrated to the Us, due to the racial laws) were not prominent on its agenda.

This and 200 pages more, give good reason for why Italy should be penalized.
Come on, Hitler offered the prints, and technicians to make the panzer 3&4, and FIAT refuesed. HE GAVE THEM FOR FREE!

The low moral bit, is quite understandable, when the massive amounts of soldiers surendered in Africa, almost without seeing combat.

Winston Churchil referd to the RAF pilots with the phrase: "Never has so much been owed to so few.

Anthony Eden, the foreign secretary refered to the surrendering Italians in Africa with a pun on Churchills phras: Never has so many surrendered to so few."



THAT IS WHY ITALY IS PENALIZED, BECAUSE THEY DESERVED IT!!!!!!!!!!
 
Nice discussion, but just like the discussion but perhaps you should also consider the fact that this eventz exists...
#########################################################################
# 40256 Italian Army - change of fate (by Aregorn 060602)
#########################################################################

event = {
id = 40256
random = no
country = ita

trigger = { event = 40419
or = {
and = { vp = 75
not = { control = { province = 364 data = ita } }
not = { control = { province = 527 data = ita } }
}
vp = 82
}
}

name = "Italian Army"
desc = "The chain of military successes not only gave the necessary motivation to fight to the average soldier but also gave invaluable confidence to the Italian military leadership."
style = 0

date = { day = 1 month = december year = 1936 }
offset = 7
deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1954 }

action_a = {
name = "Well..."
command = { type = industrial_modifier which = supplies value = 5 }
command = { type = morale which = infantry value = 25 }
command = { type = morale which = motorized value = 25 }
command = { type = morale which = mechanized value = 25 }
command = { type = morale which = light_armor value = 25 }
command = { type = morale which = armor value = 25 }
command = { type = morale which = hq value = 25 }
command = { type = max_organization which = land value = 15 }
command = { type = max_organization which = bergsjaeger value = -15 }
command = { type = max_organization which = marine value = -15 }
command = { type = max_organization which = paratrooper value = -15 }
command = { type = domestic which = professional_army value = 2 }
command = { type = morale which = air value = 25 }
command = { type = max_organization which = air value = 10 }
command = { type = morale which = naval value = 25 }
}
}
 
Lokey said:
I realize that at first glance, Italy may appear to have been penealized more severly than it indeed does deserve. However, as a student of history and political science, I get to read a large amount of interesting books (boring ones as well, but thats not my point), I recently came across a book called "Hitler's Italian Allies." A military, socio economic study of the italin war effort. A topic it attempted to give an overview of. The situation can only be refered to as Fawlty Towers staring john cleese as Mussolini.

To manage a industrialized society, you need educated people, in 1931-Italy still had 20,9% illiteracy rating. By 1951, it was still at 12,9%
By comparison, it was all but wiped out in germany by 1900.

As for Industrial capacity, 42% of the german workforce was in the industrial, and in italy slightly less than 30%. The major difference however was output.
Germany industrys share of the national product had passed that of agriculture in 1890, whereas Italy only reached the desicive benchmark in 35-40 and slipped back in 1941 and after.

During the war, the Italian armed forces only got 23% of the gross national product.... How is that for a "total war."

Leading up to and during the war, most of the armaments industry was occupied with fraud, and illigal cartels, to svindle the state for the largest amount possible.

The absence of any kind of modern millitary culture, except for to a degree in Piedemont was depressing. In the words of one of the leading army historians: "Italy has never seemed well-inclined toward arms...In reality one must admit that italy has never been well-inclined towards the state, whatever its leadership." The large pesant class, dislikeing authority, and holding no allegiance except to his family and the land of his ancesters, make poor conquerers. A hopeless and fatalistic stubborness to any kind of modernization, can still be seen today in italy.

A national research concil, under the general staff was responsible for directing millitary-industrial research. But it concentrated on autarchic nostrums such as the cultivating of guyule bushes, imported form the US, as a rubber substitute. Potentialy vital research such as radar and Enricion Fermis nuclear work(before he imegrated to the Us, due to the racial laws) were not prominent on its agenda.

This and 200 pages more, give good reason for why Italy should be penalized.
Come on, Hitler offered the prints, and technicians to make the panzer 3&4, and FIAT refuesed. HE GAVE THEM FOR FREE!

The low moral bit, is quite understandable, when the massive amounts of soldiers surendered in Africa, almost without seeing combat.

Winston Churchil referd to the RAF pilots with the phrase: "Never has so much been owed to so few.

Anthony Eden, the foreign secretary refered to the surrendering Italians in Africa with a pun on Churchills phras: Never has so many surrendered to so few."



THAT IS WHY ITALY IS PENALIZED, BECAUSE THEY DESERVED IT!!!!!!!!!!
There is a discussion about it in Stony road forum, read it please.
http://www.stonyroad.de/forum/showthread.php?t=2974
 
tinello176 said:
Cerber said:
As someone mentioned it`s not only a game but also historical simulation.

But if we stop at the "historical simulation" why play the game with a nation of the axis knowing their final historic defeat?I want to change history if possible in a game.

It is historical that the italian army performed bad when they engaged an
enemy. They performed bad against ethiopia, they performed bad against the british, they performed bad against the americans and they performed bad against the german. Only the special forces ( nembo,ariete... ) and later some RSI units were good fighting units. Of course all lacked material and supply but thats not the only reason ( I think ethiopia lacked even more... ).

Nevertheless I like playing them. :D
 
Think otherwise
Its very nice to beat ,with a historical penalized Italy ,the crap out of the British.
Your ability to change history is still there.
 
loki1232 said:
Well i mean I don't see why the italian army can't reform.
I mean isn't that waht the Soveits did to beat the germans?

As has been posted earlier, Italy CAN reform. Just capture few VP provinces and Italy loses the negative modifiers. No big deal, I got the event after I took Malta and Egypt (plus had made some conquests in Balkans). I really like how Italy has stony road at the beginning of the war but after some ahistorical successes Italians are better motivated to wage war. Look at what Feanor posted for details.
 
Anazagar said:
Always thought it was bout teh french one. And by the way:

How many French you need to defend Paris against Germans??

Nobody knows as no one has ever tried.

Yes, never, we all remember those German troops walkin unopposed into Paris in 1914, don't we.... :confused:

I'm no Frankophile but it seems to me the French get a bad rap because of the fall of Paris in 1940 and all thats followed afterward. People seem to forget all the hard fighting of WWI, the 100,000+ that died defending their country in the 6 weeks of combat of 1940, or god knows how many others died resisting the Germans after that. The French aren't the first in history to lose a battle or a war because their commanders didn't understand the technology or the tactics.