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TheRomanRuler

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Nov 3, 2012
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Here is picture of typical German war flag
th_120760454_prussia_battlecopie_122_96lo.jpg

Pretty much every Prussian or German unit had cross or iron cross of some kind in their flag. In some cases it was different one like this (in my opinion ugly) flag
dad7e7b37fc2157b4b147dd3659f5c1a.png

Sometimes, it was very vague cross shape, only formed by decorations
infanterieregiment23_jpg_w560h561.101133831_std.jpg

But flags always had crosses of some kind.
Considering how important Christianity was back then, and how 1st Foot guards of Imperial Guard called themselves "most noble regiment of Christendom", what are the reasons for not having any sort of cross on flag of Imperial guard units? Almost every nation at the time had some sort of cross in their flags. United Kingdom had 2 or 3 crosses and Union jack was part of most unit flags, French before revolution had cross shaped battle flags, Russians, Finnish, Swedish, Norweigian, Danish, Bulgarian and huge punch of other nations all incorporated cross or crosses of some kind in their battle flags - why was Prussian Guard the expection? It was not only expection, there were other flags without crosses, but one would think that in Christian nation in times when Christianity was important in imperial guard who primed themselves as best of the best - why is cross or other Christian symbol missing when it is present in almost everywhere else? This was not medieval ages when lot of Christians used non-cross designs as their coat of arms and thus flags. This was not flag meant to represent wide variety of people. Regimental flags in general had huge amount of detailed decorations - why was Prussian guard flag less decorated and more simplified than regular infantry flag? This was not 2017, back then it was important for elite units to wear as decorated uniforms, flags and insignia as possible.
407px-Fahne-4.Garde-Regiment-zu-Fu%C3%9F.jpg

Or is there just no particular reason for it? Sometimes there is no particular reason for it and it could be just tradition or something. But usually there is a reason of some kind.

Also, does Bundeswehr have regimental flags? What do they look like? Bundeswehr is not biggest fan of all traditions
 
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Wikipedia makes a distinction between the German Empire Guard and the Prussian Gardes du Corps. Are you referring to the latter?

Based on that article, I note that the Gardes du Corps was founded by Frederick the Great, who was definitely not a devout Christian (especially when compared to other Hohenzollerns). As a liberal at the peak of the Age of Enlightenment, putting Christian symbols might not occurred to him or even seemed contrary to his values. The unit was named in the language of Frederick's friend Voltaire, not the language of Luther. But that's pure evidence-free speculation: for all I know, they were just re-using a flag left over from last night's masked ball.

People sometimes think that 21st century secularism in Europe is a new thing. Actually, western Europe went through another anti-Christian phase quite recently.
 
Wikipedia makes a distinction between the German Empire Guard and the Prussian Gardes du Corps. Are you referring to the latter?

Based on that article, I note that the Gardes du Corps was founded by Frederick the Great, who was definitely not a devout Christian (especially when compared to other Hohenzollerns). As a liberal at the peak of the Age of Enlightenment, putting Christian symbols might not occurred to him or even seemed contrary to his values. The unit was named in the language of Frederick's friend Voltaire, not the language of Luther. But that's pure evidence-free speculation: for all I know, they were just re-using a flag left over from last night's masked ball.

People sometimes think that 21st century secularism in Europe is a new thing. Actually, western Europe went through another anti-Christian phase quite recently.
"the Garde du Corps was recruited nationally and was part of the 1st Guards Cavalry Division."
I mean Prussian guards in general, the entire organization. Gardes du Corps was just portion of Prussian/Imperial German guard units.
I don´t know if secularism could have played any part in it. Secularism could have been reason why some units in German armed forces did not use crosses in their flags, but i don´t think it is reason why Guard artillery, 1st and 2nd foot guards and i don`t know about rest, did not use crosses. But it is possible for sure, i don`t have knowledge.

Can you provide me something to read about that "another anti-christian phase"? Just some wikipedia link is enough, to me it is news that Europe had notable anti-Christian phase, unless you count minority or inviduals.
 
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"the Garde du Corps was recruited nationally and was part of the 1st Guards Cavalry Division."
I mean Prussian guards in general, the entire organization. Gardes du Corps was just portion of Prussian/Imperial German guard units.

Thank you for clearing that up.

. But it is possible for sure, i don`t have knowledge.

Well, you probably know more about this than me!

Can you provide me something to read about that "another anti-christian phase"? Just some wikipedia link is enough, to me it is news that Europe had notable anti-Christian phase, unless you count minority or inviduals.

This would be a good place to start:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment#Religion
 
Also, does Bundeswehr have regimental flags? What do they look like? Bundeswehr is not biggest fan of all traditions
Wasn't originally planned (didn't know that, huh!) precisely because they didn't want to revive old traditions, but apparently it was too annoying somehow working around it in international ceremonies and stuff, so there's a basic flag now. It's the typical back-red-gold, 1x1 square with the German eagle for everyone, though, nothing fancy or individual for the various units.
 
Wasn't originally planned (didn't know that, huh!) precisely because they didn't want to revive old traditions, but apparently it was too annoying somehow working around it in international ceremonies and stuff, so there's a basic flag now. It's the typical back-red-gold, 1x1 square with the German eagle for everyone, though, nothing fancy or individual for the various units.
That is so terribly disappointing, but not at all surprising becouse Bundeswehr :(
Chile literally has more German parades and traditions than Germany
Chile could send military advisors to Germany to teach Germans German traditions...
 
That is so terribly disappointing, but not at all surprising becouse Bundeswehr :(
Chile literally has more German parades and traditions than Germany
Chile could send military advisors to Germany to teach Germans German traditions...
The Nazis ruined Prussian Traditions! :mad:

Make Germany Prussian again!
 
Learning this makes me admire the Bundeswehr even more. One set of colours, laid down by rules, for one free people. Einigheit und Recht und Freiheit!
 
Looking up any major army from the era and you notice that not having a cross was not uncommon. I don't think we will ever know the reason and to be frank there is a good chance the answer is as simple as inheriting the flag from an older force who inherited it with alterations from a yet older force etc all the way back until it is linked to a coat of arms, city flag, or a guy who thought it looked cool.

There are historians focused in the subject of regimental flags. I just don't know one nor do I have any books on the subject.
 
Learning this makes me admire the Bundeswehr even more. One set of colours, laid down by rules, for one free people. Einigheit und Recht und Freiheit!
Expect Germany intentionally went to different direction from "one nation, one flag", becouse that was idea used by national socialists. That is why they even made Police forces decentralized and gave law enforcement to federal states instead of German nation.
Germany even refused to name their military police as military police becouse federal states wanted to keep term polizei for themselves. Instead they chose the name - Field hunters :D (Feldjägers)
 
Looking up any major army from the era and you notice that not having a cross was not uncommon. I don't think we will ever know the reason and to be frank there is a good chance the answer is as simple as inheriting the flag from an older force who inherited it with alterations from a yet older force etc all the way back until it is linked to a coat of arms, city flag, or a guy who thought it looked cool.

There are historians focused in the subject of regimental flags. I just don't know one nor do I have any books on the subject.
Yes but each nation also generally had some kind of iconic style for their regimental flags, with Prussians generally using cross design, and after Prussian army became world famous, other nations like Russia adopted many Prussian traditions, including flags.
It is easy to see how this Russian flag is inspired by Prussian traditions.
33pexwi.jpg

So cross design was so iconic of Prussian military tradition that even Russians adopted it when they wanted to make their army more Prussian (like most other nations also did).
 
I too attached to Prussia XD too many EU and Victora 2 games as them XD.
 
Expect Germany intentionally went to different direction from "one nation, one flag", becouse that was idea used by national socialists. That is why they even made Police forces decentralized and gave law enforcement to federal states instead of German nation.
Germany even refused to name their military police as military police becouse federal states wanted to keep term polizei for themselves. Instead they chose the name - Field hunters :D (Feldjägers)

Feldgendarmerie and Feldjäger already existed as names for these type of units. The former had always been the name for these kind of troops, going back to the Napoleonic wars, but they opted against using it because of its association to the Nazis, which makes it kind of odd that they ended up using Feldjäger, seeing how that term only was used in such capacity in the later stages of the Nazi-rule.

I don't think the name change had much to do with the states wanting to keep the term Polizei for themselves, after all, the decision was made by the department of defense, not by the states. The troops had been coined Militärpolizei at the time of the formation of the Bundeswehr in late 1955, but the name was already changed in early 1956 to Feldjäger. It definately was linked to having as few police-like organisations under the authority of the federal government as possible though, even if the only true connection to the police was the name.
 
It's much less confusing that way anyway. As I understand for example in Canada the "military police" has similar right as a civilian police officer. And the US is just a general mess. And they aren't the only countries that do something like that.
But Germany doesn't. So it's sensible to have a clear divide between "police" (people who can tell civilians what to do) and, well, those who can't but have a police-like function, like the Feldjäger. Different name, so easily recognizable as "not actually police".

And I agree that the Bundeswehr while having given up many traditions also kept loads of them. And sometimes they are a bit contradictory about it, definitely.
€: Feldjäger motto for example is "suum cuique", the one that (translated into German) was used for KZ Buchenwald. You'd think that they might avoid this type of unfortunate coincidence.
 
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That is so terribly disappointing, but not at all surprising becouse Bundeswehr :(
Chile literally has more German parades and traditions than Germany
Chile could send military advisors to Germany to teach Germans German traditions...
The musical instruments are horribly badly tuned in the second video. So painful.
 
€: Feldjäger motto for example is "suum cuique", the one that (translated into German) was used for KZ Buchenwald. You'd think that they might avoid this type of unfortunate coincidence.

That phrase, in both German and Latin, were still in common use after the war though. It wasn't until the 90s that the issue came up. It actually led to quite the back-and-forth between those who tried to get rid of anything that had the slightest connotation to the Nazis and those who thought that approach was getting rather absurd, as it would have removed plenty of well known phrases and terms that had always been in widespread use for a very long time.

In this particular case, "Jedem das Seine" is usually considered to be a valid phrase, due to its long-standing nature of being used in a positive fashion, as long as it is not directly associated with Buchenwald or the Holocaust. E.g. I think someone actually ended up going to jail because of a tattoo that used the phrase alongside the picture of a KZ.
 
Yeah, I remember the talk about the various shopping/coffee/whatever ads, too. And I even agree that it got ridiculous at times, but just in the context of "Bundeswehr got rid of anything remotely related to the Wehrmacht, even old traditions that weren't specific to the Nazis or are harmless " it's one of the many examples that show that that's not nearly the case. If they were super-zealous about it they wouldn't have called them Feldjäger, and they probably would have picked a different motto. The Gebirgsjäger wouldn't wear their Edelweiss-caps (inspired for WWI stuff). There wouldn't be Rommel-barracks. And so on.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong or anything, just that the Bundeswehr, even if internationally it might seem "bland" for discarding a lot of baggage after WWII, isn't nearly so when given a closer look.
 
To the original question. Speculation, but maybe to make the guards regiment stand out among all the crosses?

You mentioned Sweden, which for example only has/had crosses on the colours of a very few regiments iirc. The guards regiment only had the royal coat of arms on a white field I believe.
 
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To the original question. Speculation, but maybe to make the guards regiment stand out among all the crosses?

You mentioned Sweden, which for example only has/had crosses on the colours of a very few regiments iirc. The guards regiment only had the royal coat of arms on a white field I believe.
That is a good point, it is quite possible it is just to make Guard regiments stand out. I maybe completely wrong, but it just seems that it would be more fitting to instead simply decorate Guard flags with some kind of star like this
Coldstream_Guards_Badge.jpg

similar kind of stars were used by many Guard units, that for example is Goldstream guard`s badge.