Why this game's playerbase has fallen off so much

[Nebelwerfer 42]

I've thought long and hard about why this game's playerbase has fallen off so hard and so quickly, it's actually on pace to lose players faster than Act of Aggression. I pondered about the lobby system, the anemic singleplayer, the team stacking, the overall balance, the scope of content, you name it.

And after some time, I realized the answer was much simpler than expected, there are just certain elements in this game that suck the fun right out with a straw.

Take for example the 6th Airborne, it's an overall poor deck, but playing against it is anything but fun. When I go up against a 6th airborne player I know I'm going to be subjected to waves of never ending 2 star infantry, flamer, bomber, and offmap artillery spam. I know he's going to mosquito the road leading up to the town and get an incredibly easy entrance in, I'll likely end up beating the player, but after the 40 minute grueling cancer fest that ensues I don't feel like playing the game for another week. Airborne decks in general have that symptom.

Offmap should have never been in this game, they aren't counterable, they're incredibly easy to use and they completely ruin the experience for someone who's carefully set up a town or forest defense.

Why does the Beute Firefly exist in Phase A? The allies don't have a single unit that can reliably counter it. The 352 Infantry Division (as much as I love playing it) gets access to very accurate 4000m range artillery that can spend the rest of B and C smashing everything into the ground with no risk of being counterbatteried. Why do 12 men flamer squads exist in Phase A that remove any tension or skill from townfighting?

All of these things may be statistically balanced in some manner but they are a headache to deal with and suck every bit of fun out of the game. I find myself logging off very quickly now after I get hit with a bomber train that charges right through my AA and annihilates everything, thanks to the asinine sword and shield system that heavily favors airborne decks. Or after an enemy player takes the town I just fought 5 minutes to take and calls in a fuck-you-I'll-click-my-instant-win-offmap-arty button and level that entire town.

It's like dealing with Maglans in Wargame Red Dragon but on steroids and almost every division has some near uncounterable unit that succeeds far more at ruining the experience for the other player than anything else

 

[Rojan]

I've thought long and hard about why this game's playerbase has fallen off so hard and so quickly, it's actually on pace to lose players faster than Act of Aggression. I pondered about the lobby system, the anemic singleplayer, the team stacking, the overall balance, the scope of content, you name it.

And after some time, I realized the answer was much simpler than expected, there are just certain elements in this game that suck the fun right out with a straw.

Take for example the 6th Airborne, it's an overall poor deck, but playing against it is anything but fun. When I go up against a 6th airborne player I know I'm going to be subjected to waves of never ending 2 star infantry, flamer, bomber, and offmap artillery spam. I know he's going to mosquito the road leading up to the town and get an incredibly easy entrance in, I'll likely end up beating the player, but after the 40 minute grueling cancer fest that ensues I don't feel like playing the game for another week. Airborne decks in general have that symptom.

Offmap should have never been in this game, they aren't counterable, they're incredibly easy to use and they completely ruin the experience for someone who's carefully set up a town or forest defense.

Why does the Beute Firefly exist in Phase A? The allies don't have a single unit that can reliably counter it. The 352 Infantry Division (as much as I love playing it) gets access to very accurate 4000m range artillery that can spend the rest of B and C smashing everything into the ground with no risk of being counterbatteried. Why do 12 men flamer squads exist in Phase A that remove any tension or skill from townfighting?

All of these things may be statistically balanced in some manner but they are a headache to deal with and suck every bit of fun out of the game. I find myself logging off very quickly now after I get hit with a bomber train that charges right through my AA and annihilates everything, thanks to the asinine sword and shield system that heavily favors airborne decks. Or after an enemy player takes the town I just fought 5 minutes to take and calls in a fuck-you-I'll-click-my-instant-win-offmap-arty button and level that entire town.

It's like dealing with Maglans in Wargame Red Dragon but on steroids and almost every division has some near uncounterable unit that succeeds far more at ruining the experience for the other player than anything else

All of the things you are complaining about are directly correlated to the high learning curve of the game. It is a profound thing to watch two bad players fight each other. It is just indirect fire and plane spam and they act like it is the entire purpose of the game. The only way these players will get better is by literally having a mentor. I would love to play some games with you if you want Nebel, I can help you out with your frustrations and such.

 

[Nebelwerfer 42]

All of the things you are complaining about are directly correlated to the high learning curve of the game. It is a profound thing to watch two bad players fight each other. It is just indirect fire and plane spam and they act like it is the entire purpose of the game. The only way these players will get better is by literally having a mentor. I would love to play some games with you if you want Nebel, I can help you out with your frustrations and such.

The entire point of my post when right over your head. The point is not that I can't beat the opposing player, the point is that there are several units and tactics in this game that are absolute cheese and a headache to deal with, they suck all the fun out. Offmap is something that has zero skill curve, it's a click and win button, and the opposing player now has to go on a micro fest to reinforce and defend his pocket that just got annihilated, doesn't matter how good or bad you are. It's nigh impossible to deal with an airborne player's bomber train spam, sure I can still end up beating him, but is it really fun to get bombed all game and not have a counter due to the fact that AA can only suppress aircraft so fast, and his vet fighters keep all my fighters in the hangar?

 

[Rojan]

The entire point of my post when right over your head. The point is not that I can't beat the opposing player, the point is that there are several units and tactics in this game that are absolute cheese and a headache to deal with, they suck all the fun out. Offmap is something that has zero skill curve, it's a click and win button, and the opposing player now has to go on a micro fest to reinforce and defend his pocket that just got annihilated, doesn't matter how good or bad you are. It's nigh impossible to deal with an airborne player's bomber train spam, sure I can still end up beating him, but is it really fun to get bombed all game and not have a counter due to the fact that AA can only suppress aircraft so fast, and his vet fighters keep all my fighters in the hangar?

It isn't impossible. I can do it regularly and I wanted to help you.

 

[Nebelwerfer 42]

It isn't impossible. I can do it regularly and I wanted to help you.

Yes Rojan, teach me your magical ways that you use against the 5 other players that play this game

 

[Rojan]

Yes Rojan, teach me your magical ways that you use against the 5 other players that play this game

No need to be rude. I was inviting you to come play with me. The invitation still stands. I can PM you my steam if youd like.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

He isn't saying it's impossible to deal with or 'git gud' at the game.

He's saying the game is retarded for making that a necessity.

 

[IS-2]

He isn't saying it's impossible to deal with or 'git gud' at the game.

He's saying the game is retarded for making that a necessity.

i think he is frustrated about the tactics because of his ability to combat them. because those tactic/unit he listed dont bother me at all. like 0%.

the only thing that truly frustrates me in this game is hs 129 in phase A.... but then gain my favourite deck is pancerna and 2e DB....

 

[Nebelwerfer 42]

i think he is frustrated about the tactics because of his ability to combat them. because those tactic/unit he listed dont bother me at all. like 0%.

the only thing that truly frustrates me in this game is hs 129 in phase A.... but then gain my favourite deck is pancerna and 2e DB....

I'd love to hear how you combat offmap arty

 

[I WUB PUGS]

@IS-2

So..... 'git gud'

Doesn't really help the game be fun for the thousands of people that have quit the game. Something is obviously wrong with the core mechanics. Just because there's a way around those broken mechanics doesn't make them less shitty.

I mean great. In a month or so, you, me, rojan and like 30 other people can all pat one another on the back for not being so shit at the game that we had to quit. F*ck those quitters, they just aren't good enough, amirite.

I'd love to hear how you combat offmap arty

Combatting or enduring isn't the problem.

The fact that it exists at all is the problem. It's just a lame mechanic.

 

[Nebelwerfer 42]

@IS-2

So..... 'git gud'

Doesn't really help the game be fun for the thousands of people that have quit the game. Something is obviously wrong with the core mechanics. Just because there's a way around those broken mechanics doesn't make them less shitty.

I mean great. In a month or so, you, me, rojan and like 30 other people can all pat one another on the back for not being so shit at the game that we had to quit. F*ck those quitters, they just aren't good enough, amirite.



Combatting or enduring isn't the problem.

The fact that it exists at all is the problem. It's just a lame mechanic.

Which is precisely the point of my post, there are cheese mechanics that contribute nothing to the game and make it less fun, offmap arty can never be balanced, instead I've got the 2 stooges above with god complexes assuring me that I just need their tutoring to wish away all the ills of the game, surely all those other lost souls that left this game needed their tutoring as well, how foolish of me!

 

[I WUB PUGS]

Meh, I actually just uninstalled the shit.

I'd rather not be tempted by something that has gross instability and has no hope of finding any balance that caters to a wider audience that could sustain a healthy MP pool.

 

[IS-2]

@IS-2

So..... 'git gud'

Doesn't really help the game be fun for the thousands of people that have quit the game. Something is obviously wrong with the core mechanics. Just because there's a way around those broken mechanics doesn't make them less shitty.

I mean great. In a month or so, you, me, rojan and like 30 other people can all pat one another on the back for not being so shit at the game that we had to quit. F*ck those quitters, they just aren't good enough, amirite.



Combatting or enduring isn't the problem.

The fact that it exists at all is the problem. It's just a lame mechanic.

i said it frustrate me. i am extremely proficient in killing an mitigating hs 129 attacks - because i know once those are gone axis deck gonna get steamrolled by mighty pancerna.

off map are present in crappy decks that cant stand toe to toe in combat with heavier decks. 6AB, 101st, luftlande, 3 fsj. i find the offmaps only slightly egregious in 6AB thanks to new found AT, and 3 fsj because they honestly dont need them (the phase B ones that is). otherwise they are fine. they exist to buff the combat power of crap deck without distilling flavour through equipment handouts.

dont understand why they are considered broken. they capability is not exactly useful in 1v1 to say the least, and in team game come into their own when fighting over towns specifically. i think u 2 are focusing too much on the annoying aspect of this units while not analyzing the effective impact they have for the cost. hs 129 while strong can result in very VERY big point deficit for axis, offmap are just overrated. once it hits u dont stack ur forces on the front of the line anymore and subsequent hit is mitigated.... they have been nerfed so many times now.

i dont have a problem with it. and people are definitely not quitting because of offmap and plane trains...... if they are that is prety sad.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

They're broken because they suck the fun out of the game.

Doesn't matter if you can get around it or just suffer it.

It isn't fun, so the game isn't fun.

It's a game. It should be fun. Not most of the time, all the time. Even the challenges should be fun and off-map, while challenging isn't fun. It's just annoying.

Basically, I view it as a built-in glitch that sucks the joy out of otherwise fun times, and it isn't the only one. It's like playing a sports game where for some unknown reason, the AI just starts stomping you. Or those old TW games where the AI would declare war on you when you were best friends just because. The shitty mechanic is shitty and it breaks the (fun of the) game.

If only it were the only shitty part.

It's cool though, I'm seeing more and more of the upbeat positive types around here get salty. This place is gonna become a total cesspit with all the crashed servers and slow patches. The Eugen forum is totally dead and the subreddit is barely hanging on.

This has been a most impressive failure and all the 'git guds' or even the cordial invites by Rojan to help people will not bring this piece of shit back.

i dont have a problem with it. and people are definitely not quitting because of offmap and plane trains...... if they are that is prety sad.

I figured I'd address that point specifically. I know people that quit the game because of dumb stuff like that. They thought it was wholly un-fun. Does that make them sad? I don't know, I don't think I should be in a position to judge how other people have fun. Neither should you.

 

[Rojan]

They're broken because they suck the fun out of the game.

Doesn't matter if you can get around it or just suffer it.

It isn't fun, so the game isn't fun.

It's a game. It should be fun. Not most of the time, all the time. Even the challenges should be fun and off-map, while challenging isn't fun. It's just annoying.

Basically, I view it as a built-in glitch that sucks the joy out of otherwise fun times, and it isn't the only one. It's like playing a sports game where for some unknown reason, the AI just starts stomping you. Or those old TW games where the AI would declare war on you when you were best friends just because. The shitty mechanic is shitty and it breaks the (fun of the) game.

If only it were the only shitty part.

It's cool though, I'm seeing more and more of the upbeat positive types around here get salty. This place is gonna become a total cesspit with all the crashed servers and slow patches. The Eugen forum is totally dead and the subreddit is barely hanging on.

This has been a most impressive failure and all the 'git guds' or even the cordial invites by Rojan to help people will not bring this piece of shit back.





I figured I'd address that point specifically. I know people that quit the game because of dumb stuff like that. They thought it was wholly un-fun. Does that make them sad? I don't know, I don't think I should be in a position to judge how other people have fun. Neither should you.

I must be a masochist or insane to keep playing this game with how the balance is being painted. I honestly think the game is incredibly well balanced as it stands right now. I don't know if it is just that way at the upper levels of play or what but I think there are much more pressing issues to keep this game from dying.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

You're a masochist and I was until like 20 minutes ago.

There are plenty of "pressing issues" that masochists see. Like I dunno, a god damn game that will allow MP connection.

But casuals........you know............. the majority of people that buy a game and populate the ever living shit out of servers on the weekends and evenings........... you know, the people that are the lifeblood of a community........................

Yeah, those people like to have fun. And not one of the 10+ people I used to play RD and ALB with have found the game to really be even remotely "fun".

That's a problem.

 

[IS-2]

They're broken because they suck the fun out of the game.

Doesn't matter if you can get around it or just suffer it.

It isn't fun, so the game isn't fun.

It's a game. It should be fun. Not most of the time, all the time. Even the challenges should be fun and off-map, while challenging isn't fun. It's just annoying.

Basically, I view it as a built-in glitch that sucks the joy out of otherwise fun times, and it isn't the only one. It's like playing a sports game where for some unknown reason, the AI just starts stomping you. Or those old TW games where the AI would declare war on you when you were best friends just because. The shitty mechanic is shitty and it breaks the (fun of the) game.

If only it were the only shitty part.

It's cool though, I'm seeing more and more of the upbeat positive types around here get salty. This place is gonna become a total cesspit with all the crashed servers and slow patches. The Eugen forum is totally dead and the subreddit is barely hanging on.

This has been a most impressive failure and all the 'git guds' or even the cordial invites by Rojan to help people will not bring this piece of shit back.

this is strategy game. a niche ww2 tactics game - a game that requires some thought.

perhaps eugen was expecting there target demographic to be able to think and realize hey - this explosions stunning my guys costs 180 points and blew up a few squads only. so despite the annoying noise and some fall back units it is not THAT good. oh hey, its 180 points, maybe i can find a gap in the line with some vehicle or truck infantry and kill it?

not react with WAAA MY STUFF IS GETTIN BLOWN UP I QUIT MOMMY ((((((

... but there is a big disconnect between me and most other player. i dont think the balance is the problem. i think eugen refusing to put forced matchmaker and now server explosion is the problem.

 

[naizarak]

tldr

it's actually very simple: eugene didn't put in the effort to make a good game. compare this to how ambitious ALB was

 

[pbatt]

A lot of problems with offmap also stem from people playing larger games (3v3/4v4) on maps that are wholly too small for it as well.

2v2 on a 1v1 map is already too far yet some people decide to do 4v4 on 1v1 maps...

There is not going to be any form of balance in these situations.

On off-map itself:
I don't understand the big deal with it either and never really have. Successful RTS games in the last decade including COH1 and the original DoW had solid off-maps along side things like the nuclear pineapple... what made this implementation of off-map so different?

EDIT:

Also adding a straw poll here I'm going to post to a few other locations as well.

http://www.strawpoll.me/13474297

Genuinely curious about a number of things people have put forward as potential issues.

 

[Protosszocker]

The entire point of my post when right over your head. The point is not that I can't beat the opposing player, the point is that there are several units and tactics in this game that are absolute cheese and a headache to deal with, they suck all the fun out. Offmap is something that has zero skill curve, it's a click and win button, and the opposing player now has to go on a micro fest to reinforce and defend his pocket that just got annihilated, doesn't matter how good or bad you are. It's nigh impossible to deal with an airborne player's bomber train spam, sure I can still end up beating him, but is it really fun to get bombed all game and not have a counter due to the fact that AA can only suppress aircraft so fast, and his vet fighters keep all my fighters in the hangar?

Man there are zerglings in starcraft or voidrays or carriers or broodlords or siegtanks. People are pissed of by those units for fair but still everyone loves SC (mostplayed MP RTS since 20 years) so for me thats not the issue thats just what you search for as a misstake to find.