Why would any country move away from Latin

[Rule Britannia]

From what I have seen your research speed depends on things like if you are a settled country, literacy of your pops, clergy satisfaction and your liturgical language with the most powerful liturgical language giving a certain bonus (I think I saw +1 somewhere) and every other language scales down depending on power. At the start Latin seems to be the dominant liturgical language but why would any country move away from this if it severely hits your research speed? I would assume that the reformation has aspects that allow you to counter this but I do not think we have seen what it is. Does anyone have any more information on this or have i misunderstood something regarding how research works? Any clarifications would be appreciated.

 

[I like wars and maps]

I can only hope you can turn your liturgical language into your own as a catholic and still have it not be inferior to latin if you are powerful/educated enough.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

* blocks your path *

 

[livebythecreed77]

From what I have seen your research speed depends on things like if you are a settled country, literacy of your pops, clergy satisfaction and your liturgical language with the most powerful liturgical language giving a certain bonus (I think I saw +1 somewhere) and every other language scales down depending on power. At the start Latin seems to be the dominant liturgical language but why would any country move away from this if it severely hits your research speed? I would assume that the reformation has aspects that allow you to counter this but I do not think we have seen what it is. Does anyone have any more information on this or have i misunderstood something regarding how research works? Any clarifications would be appreciated.

Maybe should have diminishing returns after the age of reformation. Also should play into your cultural gameplay say research speed is great by Game start but the clergy pop in Europe anyway will always be quite small and there is far better bonuses to adopting your primary culture's language. I could see with later advancements schools and the like it would be more beneficial to move away from Latin. It was always an exclusive language only for the highly educated anyway.

 

[Rayski]

From what I have seen your research speed depends on things like if you are a settled country, literacy of your pops, clergy satisfaction and your liturgical language with the most powerful liturgical language giving a certain bonus (I think I saw +1 somewhere) and every other language scales down depending on power. At the start Latin seems to be the dominant liturgical language but why would any country move away from this if it severely hits your research speed? I would assume that the reformation has aspects that allow you to counter this but I do not think we have seen what it is. Does anyone have any more information on this or have i misunderstood something regarding how research works? Any clarifications would be appreciated.

You can't move away from Latin if you're Catholic.
If you're Protestant it may be beneficial to move your liturgical language away from Latin, if your local language has high enough Language Power.
Language Power is impacted by multiple factors, including how many countries use it as common, court and liturgical languages, and what is the power of the market in which your language is dominant.
Below is example of Spanish (30.12% Language Power) which is a court language in Castille and Navarre, common language in Castille (not in Navarre - common language is linked with country's primary culture, hence in Navarre it's Basque) and market language in Sevilla.

I don't know the weights, thus this is pure speculation, but I can think of scenario in which e.g. French supersedes Latin as the language with highest Language Power. It's already in a good starting position as it's a court language in France and Great Britain at the start of the game (see the map below) and dominant language of Paris market. Go for Bordeaux, work on integrating and assimilating it to change the province's culture from Occitan to French. Work on increasing market power in your two French speaking trade nodes (the higher the market power, the higher its contribution to the Language Power). Get subjects in HRE / Northern Italy and make them use French as a court language. Colonize.

 

[Birchinjaro]

A simple fix would be to make the research bonus scale with the current age, the more "Global" an age is (and therefore the more natural trade of ideas there is) the less liturgical language helps with research. Having a unique liturgical language should probably give a prestige and a cultural tradition bonus so that by the 19th century you have a small (but still present) bonus in research if you have a widespread liturgical language and a nice prestige and cultural tradition buff if you have a more unique language

 

[PortDoubloon01]

It wouldn't make much sense for Catholic countries to move away from Latin as the liturgical language. Beyond other the political issues, such a change would partially sever the country from the communication network of the Catholic Church.

Are you referring to Protestants changing the liturgical language?

I would think Catholic Latin ought to have a malus to literacy and a plus due to being part of the wider Catholic network. Being a Protestant with common language as liturgical tongue ought to increase literacy. If you kept Latin you still probably wouldn't be plugged into the Catholic network, so no/fewer bonuses there. Literacy because its easier to learn your own language and Protestants encouraged reading the Bible in vernacular on your own.

 

[Rule Britannia]

It wouldn't make much sense for Catholic countries to move away from Latin as the liturgical language. Beyond other the political issues, such a change would partially sever the country from the communication network of the Catholic Church.

Are you referring to Protestants changing the liturgical language?

I would think Catholic Latin ought to have a malus to literacy and a plus due to being part of the wider Catholic network. Being a Protestant with common language as liturgical tongue ought to increase literacy. If you kept Latin you still probably wouldn't be plugged into the Catholic network, so no/fewer bonuses there. Literacy because its easier to learn your own language and Protestants encouraged reading the Bible in vernacular on your own.

I was primarily thinking of Anglican and Protestant countries after the reformation who would not normally keep latin

 

[PortDoubloon01]

I was primarily thinking of Anglican and Protestant countries after the reformation who would not normally keep latin

Gotcha, I think I slightly misunderstood your post then.

I think my post might be an organic way to solve that. Catholics should get some bonus from Latin but malus to literacy, and be hard locked from changing liturgical language.

Protestants should not get the bonuses from Latin and should have literacy bonuses dangled in front of them for common tongue, which would encourage a switch. Or it could just be hardcoded too, which I don't think would be as interesting but might function better.

 

[Andrzej2]

I can only hope you can turn your liturgical language into your own as a catholic and still have it not be inferior to latin if you are powerful/educated enough.

That wouldn't make any sense. Catholic Church always fought against national languages in liturgy until the Second Vatican Council in 1965.

To this day official language of the Church is Latin but permitting usage of national language in liturgy got out of hand.

Nowadays to some it may seem that liturgy language is not a big deal but in Eu4 timeframe calling for usage of national language was a clear sign of separating oneself from Catholic Church.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

I can only hope you can turn your liturgical language into your own as a catholic and still have it not be inferior to latin if you are powerful/educated enough.

How would you be able to stay catholic when you've removed latin in the liturgy?

 

[Azgabeth]

It’s implied in thr Reformation TT that using vernacular increases your max literacy.

So even if it hurts you in the short term it’s a long term gain. Potentially

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

It’s implied in thr Reformation TT that using vernacular increases your max literacy.

I got that "translated bible" increased max literacy but nothing related to your liturgical language.

 

[I like wars and maps]

That wouldn't make any sense. Catholic Church always fought against national languages in liturgy until the Second Vatican Council in 1965.

To this day official language of the Church is Latin but permitting usage of national language in liturgy got out of hand.

Nowadays to some it may seem that liturgy language is not a big deal but in Eu4 timeframe calling for usage of national language was a clear sign of separating oneself from

How would you be able to stay catholic when you've removed latin in the liturgy?

Latin is used cause of Rome and its legacy of turning latin into the lingua franca while the church was formed and then kept cause it gave a unified language for the clergy throughout to be able to communicate despite speaking different languages. If France became the new Rome and made everyone speak french its preety much guaranteed that french would suddenly be the new church language cause the issue of language barriers would be non existent.

 

[honkajoki]

That wouldn't make any sense. Catholic Church always fought against national languages in liturgy until the Second Vatican Council in 1965.

Are religions railroaded in the game or is it more of a sandbox where things can go ahistorically? In the latter case, that change in Cathocism could happen within the game timeframe, eg as a part of the counter reformation.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

Latin is used cause of Rome and its legacy of turning latin into the lingua franca while the church was formed and then kept cause it gave a unified language for the clergy throughout to be able to communicate despite speaking different languages. If France became the new Rome and made everyone speak french its preety much guaranteed that french would suddenly be the new church language cause the issue of language barriers would be non existent.

Latin wasn’t retained out of pragmatism, if that was the concern any language would do so long as everyone agreed upon it, and Italian would likely be adopted at some point since the majority of cardinals speak it natively. No by this point Ecclesiastical Latin had taken on a life of its own and the church would refuse to relinquish its absolute primacy until 1965. Keep in mind French did in fact become the courtly language of basically all of Europe and the church didn’t so much as blink at the possibility of switching to it. Neither did they for Spanish which had immense influence on the church.

Are religions railroaded in the game or is it more of a sandbox where things can go ahistorically? In the latter case, that change in Cathocism could happen within the game timeframe, eg as a part of the counter reformation.

I don’t think there’s an option to effectively become Lutheran as part of the counter reformation, no. The option probably should be added in DLC since it wasn’t a complete impossibility, but I can understand why it won’t be in at launch since a reverse reformation where the Protestants basically take over the church and it’s the conservatives who leave is a pretty major counterfactual.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Latin is used cause of Rome and its legacy of turning latin into the lingua franca while the church was formed and then kept cause it gave a unified language for the clergy throughout to be able to communicate despite speaking different languages. If France became the new Rome and made everyone speak french its preety much guaranteed that french would suddenly be the new church language cause the issue of language barriers would be non existent.

During the avignon papacy we dont see french becoming the liturgical language in avignon loyal territories

 

[MegaVHS]

Just wanted to point out that liturgical languages have less to do about being actual liturgical languages and more about creating a common language for science, to this day most stuff in academics is named in Latin.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Just wanted to point out that liturgical languages have less to do about being actual liturgical languages and more about creating a common language for science, to this day most stuff in academics is named in Latin.

And scientific papers would still be published in latin in protestant countries

 

[Azgabeth]

Just wanted to point out that liturgical languages have less to do about being actual liturgical languages and more about creating a common language for science, to this day most stuff in academics is named in Latin.

There really has to be a science language because by the 18th century French took over the language of science and then in the middle half of the 19th century it was english or german.