Will there be rebels? (I so hope not!)

[unmerged(26764)]

One of the least popular mechanics in every Paradox game is the randomly spawning rebel army. The sound of that angry crowd still makes me cringe the moment I hear it. The limiting factor rebels apply is a good one, but the mechanic of raising armies and rebel bashing pop-up whack-a-mole rebel armies is maddening.

Mods in the past have experimented with replacing spawned rebel armies with some abstracted mechanic -- province maluses, negative events, and so on -- to simulate the bad affect of rebels without having to chase around silly little rebel armies all the time.

The standard rebel model is simply not fun. A lot of people agree that the same limits on expansion and bad acting that rebels are meant to apply can be implemented in a more fun to play method.

Are you guys finally considering getting rid of the standard Paradox whack-a-rebel and replacing it with something better?

 

[flame7926]

One of the least popular mechanics in every Paradox game is the randomly spawning rebel army. The sound of that angry crowd still makes me cringe the moment I hear it. The limiting factor rebels apply is a good one, but the mechanic of raising armies and rebel bashing pop-up whack-a-mole rebel armies is maddening.

Mods in the past have experimented with replacing spawned rebel armies with some abstracted mechanic -- province maluses, negative events, and so on -- to simulate the bad affect of rebels without having to chase around silly little rebel armies all the time.

The standard rebel model is simply not fun. A lot of people agree that the same limits on expansion and bad acting that rebels are meant to apply can be implemented in a more fun to play method.

Are you guys finally considering getting rid of the standard Paradox whack-a-rebel and replacing it with something better?

I don't think they should be gone completely, just most of the time.

 

[masteriw]

I find EU3's rebels a very good game addition if I'm honest, it's not like in Victoria 2 where they could, pre AHD, rise a jillion regiments out of the blue for no apparent reason. In EU3, you know exactly why they are spawning and you can avoid them.

 

[flame7926]

I find EU3's rebels a very good game addition if I'm honest, it's not like in Victoria 2 where they could, pre AHD, rise a jillion regiments out of the blue for no apparent reason. In EU3, you know exactly why they are spawning and you can avoid them.

What?? Thats exactly the opposite, in EU3 its very vague, in Victoria 2, you know their ideology, what reforms they want, how militant they are, how many are preparing to be rebels, etc.

 

[Arcvalons]

In V2 also, if there are rebels you know things are bad, because they can potentially spawn thousands of men in every single province of your empire. I had a case once when as Germany, I was fighting down in Austria when half a million Communist rebels show up because war exhaustion, and in the end I had to white peace Austria even though I was steamrolling them in order to take care of the commies.

I mean, it would be awesome if rebels were able to radically alter your game, but I'm not sure large scale revolts were common in this era. Most obviously there were dynastic politics that triggered civil wars, and we'll have to see how the game handles other members of your dynasty other than the King.

 

[Van Diemen]

I just commented in another thread about this issue. I think that the OP is right, indeed having rebels abstracted as province modifiers (especially for the simple peasant revolts and rebellions) would be way more serious with some decent penalties than with some weak spawned badly AI controlled rebel force.

However for civil wars and more organised revolts (like from the nobility or a revolution) there should be a more EU: Rome like civil war system where the rebel faction acts more like another country with all the benefits of probably enjoying better AI, recruitable units and making of alliances with foreign powers. Furthermore in that setting you can yourself also play as the rebel faction, which can also be very enjoyable.

 

[Chamboozer]

Different types of rebels should be represented in diffrent ways. Most rebels should be represented through reduced tax and manpower, to represent banditry and tax evasion. Noble uprisings should be coordinated, regional, and caused by something in particular - these types of rebellions should be along the lines of V2, and should typically demand something of the player before actually spawning rebel armies should the player refuse the demand. Lastly there would be nationalists/patriots, which would usually require foreign aid to succeed and would be represented as both aforementioned rebel types combined.

 

[flame7926]

I just commented in another thread about this issue. I think that the OP is right, indeed having rebels abstracted as province modifiers (especially for the simple peasant revolts and rebellions) would be way more serious with some decent penalties than with some weak spawned badly AI controlled rebel force.

However for civil wars and more organised revolts (like from the nobility or a revolution) there should be a more EU: Rome like civil war system where the rebel faction acts more like another country with all the benefits of probably enjoying better AI, recruitable units and making of alliances with foreign powers. Furthermore in that setting you can yourself also play as the rebel faction, which can also be very enjoyable.

A civil war system like that would be nice. Monarchist, as well as other types of civil wars. It could just be like 10 generic tags, but I would hope for some type of dynamic naming, so the rebel country could have a cool name.

 

[Fawr]

To me EU needs something where a rebellion in one province triggers potential rebellions in other similar provinces. So a Huguenot revolt in one French province has the potentiall to immediatly trigger a revolt check (with bonuses) on all other Huguenot provinces. Or an Inca nationalistic rebellion will trigger a chance of another nationalistic rebellion in all the other provinces with incas & nationalism.

The trade off would be a reduction in the base chance of revolts happening, while keeping the economic disadvantages to simulate small scale issues.

 

[kal56]

To me EU needs something where a rebellion in one province triggers potential rebellions in other similar provinces. So a Huguenot revolt in one French province has the potentiall to immediatly trigger a revolt check (with bonuses) on all other Huguenot provinces. Or an Inca nationalistic rebellion will trigger a chance of another nationalistic rebellion in all the other provinces with incas & nationalism.

The trade off would be a reduction in the base chance of revolts happening, while keeping the economic disadvantages to simulate small scale issues.

I like this for players, honestly most of the time rebels are more annoying than threatening, but I worry it would lead to the breakup of a lot of AI controlled nations making the game easier for the player.

 

[Marco Dandolo]

I just commented in another thread about this issue. I think that the OP is right, indeed having rebels abstracted as province modifiers (especially for the simple peasant revolts and rebellions) would be way more serious with some decent penalties than with some weak spawned badly AI controlled rebel force.

However for civil wars and more organised revolts (like from the nobility or a revolution) there should be a more EU: Rome like civil war system where the rebel faction acts more like another country with all the benefits of probably enjoying better AI, recruitable units and making of alliances with foreign powers. Furthermore in that setting you can yourself also play as the rebel faction, which can also be very enjoyable.

Different types of rebels should be represented in diffrent ways. Most rebels should be represented through reduced tax and manpower, to represent banditry and tax evasion. Noble uprisings should be coordinated, regional, and caused by something in particular - these types of rebellions should be along the lines of V2, and should typically demand something of the player before actually spawning rebel armies should the player refuse the demand. Lastly there would be nationalists/patriots, which would usually require foreign aid to succeed and would be represented as both aforementioned rebel types combined.

I subscribe this.

 

[wolfing]

The problem with EU is that it's the whole world, so even a tiny 1% yearly revolt chance per province becomes basically a monthly revolt you have to whack-a-mole once you're large enough. Maybe make it so that, except for special circumstances, the chance of revolt is 0 when stability is at max.

 

[Alerias]

The game is using EU3 and its expansions as the base, so unless one of the planned major features is a rebel overhaul, you can put safe money on them working exactly as before.

 

[Derp]

The game is using EU3 and its expansions as the base, so unless one of the planned major features is a rebel overhaul, you can put safe money on them working exactly as before.

The trick with sequals is to keep the things that people like and work on the things that people don't like. So yes you will see somethings in EUIV that are rather similar to things in EUIII, we believe that these are the parts of the game that work and you like. Maybe we will be wrong, but you do not throw out the baby with the bath water.

So unless Paradox is blind to the almost unanimous hate of EU3-style rebels they will probably do something about them.

 

[unddu]

Should there be rebels of some fashion? Yes. Should there be insane hords of them, that spawn and respawn until you've single handedly butchered more then half your male population? No. Especially not the way it's done in Vicky, where you can have a welfare paradise and still have a literal crap ton (read millons) of commie rebels...

I feel that simply having maluses is not enough, there should be actual rebel armies, but only if the rebels have a chance bigger then a snowball in hell, of actually coming out with something useful.

 

[unmerged(353072)]

Here is how I see it

If you have a uncored territory and government and sliders are different then their last government then you should have a high revolt risk. Also, it should be once you defeat the rebel army once it disappears instead of running around all over the place, but if the rebellion is for a cause like a change of government or the releasing of a nation then it should be stronger and more difficult to beat.

Or you could have it to were peasant rebels destroy buildings in the province. This is a major pain but uprisings should be able to harm a nation whether it be peasants or nobles. I think the most important thing to have is just a simple way of knowing what causes a rebellion. Like getting a event were you can raise taxes or not, if you raise taxes their is a chance that province might revolt. If you want to get into more depth you can of two different tax rates one for peasants and another for nobles but that to me is a little much.

 

[Jia Xu]

It's fairly safe to assume there will be rebellions. Rebellions represent an internal military challenge to the player. Without them, then there's only an external challenge which would be fairly unbalanced due to such a change. If I have no rebels to worry about, then I only have to worry about my borders with foreign states because I don't have to worry about internal dissenters trying to dismantle my empire from within. Without rebels, blobbing just becomes that much easier.

What I would like to see is smarter rebels. Rebels shouldn't rise up if they think they're going to be squashed into oblivion. I shouldn't have to see 2K rebels popping up next to a province hosting one of my 15K stacks. That's just a dumb rebellion and a waste of my time. It would be nice if rebels had an AI which only caused them to rise up when there's a good chance they'll be successful. Like, I'm tied up in war with three other super powers, so then the game decides that my colonists might be able to get away with a rebellion while I'm distracted. That's the kind of rebellion system I'd like to see.

 

[sumdood]

If rebels are only represented as modifiers I don't think any player would see them as a serious threat. However, their current spawn rate makes rebel management a chore and something that takes away from the fun factor of the game. Treat rebels like the natives from EU3. They can build up in population and aggressiveness as you piss them off, causing negative modifiers and events. Either please them (reduce aggression) or attack them with your military (reduce quantity, but increase aggresssion), but if you ignore them for so long then they can then militarize and start to siege the province.

 

[TalorianEmporer]

Sumdood's idea makes sense, I support this idea.

 

[1alexey]

This tread is so full of good ideas.