Winning as Stannis Baratheon

[Adonnus]

So with the new combat which makes the battles all about numbers and removes most advantages from terrain modifiers, Stannis has a harder time than ever winning the war. However the game is also rigged against him... I'd like to see the following changes in the 8300 start if it wouldn't be too much:

-Removal of all Stannis vassals/allies in the Stormlands except for Storm's End itself, for gameplay purposes. The reason for this is that the Iron Throne can simply 1. carpet siege Stannis' stormlands provinces and 2. kill any armies that his allied lords raise there easily, thus gaining tonnes (read: an insurmountable) amount of warscore while the player is helpless.

-More events for lords/high lords defecting over to Stannis. I won many battles, took the North, annihilated the Riverlands' army and still only got about 5% warscore, since the North war was a separate one. This is of course going to deviate from the novels as Stannis hasn't even captured the North yet. However with a bit of careful consideration it should be possible to flesh out an alternate event chain where Valemen/Rivermen join Stannis.

-No more Iron Throne allied Northern lords. I saw Umbers and Karstarks, and I believe one other set of lords rebel against me and join Tommen's war. Of Umbers:

"With the Greatjon still a captive of House Frey, a portion of House Umber, led by his uncle Hother Whoresbane, grudgingly swears fealty to House Bolton, though according to Lord Roose Bolton their loyalty is highly dubious. The other half of the Umbers, underMors Crowfood, take up the cause of Stannis Baratheon." from the ASOIAF wiki.

So I think it's reasonable that even with the Greatjon captive, having the whole north under my singular leadership, they would defect to my cause.

As for the Karstarks the situation is similarly complicated though again, with Arnolf planning to defect again to the Boltons (who are extinct in my game) it should be obvious that they must go back again to Stannis Baratheon once he's won the North.

My Stannis campaign had to end for these reasons, even though I won every battle I took part in.

 

[D Toccs]

My Stannis campaign had to end for these reasons, even though I won every battle I took part in.

Then it sounds like you got the complete Stannis experience

Seriously though, you are basically asking for the entire scenario to be altered because you had a game where some dudes betrayed you and you ended up losing.

 

[Adonnus]

Then it sounds like you got the complete Stannis experience

Seriously though, you are basically asking for the entire scenario to be altered because you had a game where some dudes betrayed you and you ended up losing.

Haha well to an extent. He did lose the Blackwater after all.

And no I don't believe you are understanding my point here. I believe you are misinterpreting the cause of my problems as being specific to this individual game rather than an intrinsic problem that would be repeated in any test of the scenario (as you'll find, I'm certain, were you to play it yourself.) The problems with the Umbers and the Karstarks are more minor concerns - hence their location lower on my list. I am not a CK2 developer but can hardly imagine why the entire scenario, as you say, must be altered in order for these individual problems to be solved? Why do you suppose this must be the case?

The points are descending, as in most lists, in order of importance. Even if those two dudes didn't betray me (rather ignoring, forgive me, my points that it is senseless for them to be taking such action in the first place) I still would have lost due to the unfair warscore pile ons from the carpet sieging, in point 1, and the fact that the event chains ended in the North, point 2. So, as you say "seriously" I would then ask you to take a serious look at the points I have raised.

 

[SgtSmuckers]

How to Win the War for Stannis? - A Feast for Crows Start

Opportunity for victory as Stannis is suppose to be slim, with no chance. Obviously you will have lords revolting against you for your differing culture and religion, regardless if a relative of some northern lord is imprisoned. Not to mention their is only so much you can do to guide the AI and they will ultimately make their own generated choice.

The thread linked above has some people ideas as to how to win as Stannis if you care to look at it.

 

[D Toccs]

-Removal of all Stannis vassals/allies in the Stormlands except for Storm's End itself, for gameplay purposes. The reason for this is that the Iron Throne can simply 1. carpet siege Stannis' stormlands provinces and 2. kill any armies that his allied lords raise there easily, thus gaining tonnes (read: an insurmountable) amount of warscore while the player is helpless.

Those troops that Stannis has up at the Wall are his raised levies. If he has no Stormlands, that means he'll lose about 80% of his troops, unless you are proposing he be givien some unjustified event troops to make up for the loss.
All those now neutral Storm Lords would probably just join straight up with the Iron Throne anyway now, meaning you would have effectively taken 80% of Stannis' army and given it straight to Tommen. That's not even mentioning how this would all drastically change the way Aegon's invasion would work.

-More events for lords/high lords defecting over to Stannis. I won many battles, took the North, annihilated the Riverlands' army and still only got about 5% warscore, since the North war was a separate one. This is of course going to deviate from the novels as Stannis hasn't even captured the North yet. However with a bit of careful consideration it should be possible to flesh out an alternate event chain where Valemen/Rivermen join Stannis.

With the Mega War system lords can and do swap over to support more powerful people during wars. If they like you enough, if you're powerful enough, it will happen organically. You are asking for a specifically constructed event chain with the sole purpose being to force several AI's into joining Stannis.

-No more Iron Throne allied Northern lords. I saw Umbers and Karstarks, and I believe one other set of lords rebel against me and join Tommen's war. Of Umbers:

"With the Greatjon still a captive of House Frey, a portion of House Umber, led by his uncle Hother Whoresbane, grudgingly swears fealty to House Bolton, though according to Lord Roose Bolton their loyalty is highly dubious. The other half of the Umbers, underMors Crowfood, take up the cause of Stannis Baratheon." from the ASOIAF wiki.

So I think it's reasonable that even with the Greatjon captive, having the whole north under my singular leadership, they would defect to my cause.

So once Stannis conquers the North, all Northern lords must fight for him. Religous and culture differences be dammed, personal opinions, no matter, he's burning prisoners, too bad.

So yeah, you're basically wanting the scenario changed to something where Stannis can't possibly lose. Lords will randomly join him, lords cannot turn against him and he suffers no drawbacks from being at the other end of the continent to his territory because we'll just say it's not his territory.
You're playing Stannis Baratheon in AFFC, it's one of the hardest campaigns in the mod and it's meant to be like that.

 

[Adonnus]

Those troops that Stannis has up at the Wall are his raised levies. If he has no Stormlands, that means he'll lose about 80% of his troops, unless you are proposing he be givien some unjustified event troops to make up for the loss.
All those now neutral Storm Lords would probably just join straight up with the Iron Throne anyway now, meaning you would have effectively taken 80% of Stannis' army and given it straight to Tommen. That's not even mentioning how this would all drastically change the way Aegon's invasion would work.

Unjustified? Sorry but I think taking away a massive, insurmountable as I already stated penalty to the player is pretty damned justified. You haven't even acknowledged that the AI Iron Throne being able to get 70% warscore without you doing anything or being able to do anything is a problem. Secondly if you make those storm lords vassals of the Iron Throne directly instead of allied in a war then only a fraction of that number could be used by Tommen. I am not sure what you are aiming for with Aegon's invasion in the first place but having them declare war on the Iron Throne instead of the Stormlands (which since it's held by Stannis is just another ridiculous obstacle, since Pentos allied to Aegon will ALSO invade the North) would be a start.

I am arguing for lore accuracy. Again from the ASOIAF wiki:

Most of Stannis's bannermen kneel to King Joffrey I Baratheon after Stannis's defeat in the Battle of the Blackwater. Aside from the garrisons at Storm's End and Dragonstone, the remaining lords loyal to Stannis travel with him to defend the Wall and Castle Blackfrom wildlings. King Joffrey dies at his wedding, and he is succeeded by his younger brother, Tommen.

A Feast for Crows
Lords Mace Tyrell and Mathis Rowan lay siege to Stannis's garrison at Storm's End. Mace returns to King's Landing when he hears that his daughter, Queen Margaery Tyrell, has been arrested, leaving Mathis to continue the siege.

A Dance with Dragons
Aside from Stannis's garrison at Storm's End, the stormlands hold to the peace of King Tommen I.

With the Mega War system lords can and do swap over to support more powerful people during wars. If they like you enough, if you're powerful enough, it will happen organically. You are asking for a specifically constructed event chain with the sole purpose being to force several AI's into joining Stannis.

I have never heard of that... or seen it in action. Second sentence, you are phrasing it like it's unjustified?

So once Stannis conquers the North, all Northern lords must fight for him. Religous and culture differences be dammed, personal opinions, no matter, he's burning prisoners, too bad.

This is rather extraordinarily silly. Mainly because you are while stating all those things ignoring them at the exact same time. One it makes no sense for a Lord to arbitrarily go to war with the rest of his realm if they are nowhere near an allied army or allied territory. If there was a lord with such opinions against Stannis they'd wait until an anti-Stannis army came close before switching against him. Two are you forgetting, as stated in the books, that houses like the Umbers bear hatred towards the Boltons and would never join a war on their side? At the very least they would be neutral. You're acting like it's rational that a house which had its liege lord and his mother killed at a wedding and had its house leader imprisoned would, with absolutely no prospect of personal gain in the near future randomly and arbitrarily attack the person with the most power in the entire region who has just won a war decisively. (And even if he hadn't it still wouldn't make sense.)

So yeah, you're basically wanting the scenario changed to something where Stannis can't possibly lose.

What? Pardon me but how exactly does implementing these changed mean that Stannis can't lose? He is still outnumbered massively - the armies of the Westerlands, Iron Throne, Reach and Dorne are against him - not to mention others, the Riverlands, the Freys etc. All this would do it give him the slightest chance of victory, with very careful player management of armies and other things (the ideal scenario) where presently it's nigh impossible. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion but it's incorrect.

Lords will randomly join him, lords cannot turn against him and he suffers no drawbacks from being at the other end of the continent to his territory because we'll just say it's not his territory.
You're playing Stannis Baratheon in AFFC, it's one of the hardest campaigns in the mod and it's meant to be like that.

If "hardest" to you means arbitrary penalties like having your provinces carpet sieged and the vassals you can't control and who shouldn't have any armies after the Blackwater (since 90% of Stormlands houses either changed sides or had their men wiped out - there were hardly any Stannis loyal armies left except near Dragonstone) then it seems like we have different definitions of "what is meant to be hard".

 

[Wandering Sentinel]

War isn't meant to be fair. It's meant to be bloody, horrible, and pointless. As Robert E. Lee said, "it is good war is so terrible, otherwise we would grow too fond of it" and why should this be any different?

 

[Adonnus]

War isn't meant to be fair. It's meant to be bloody, horrible, and pointless. As Robert E. Lee said, "it is good war is so terrible, otherwise we would grow too fond of it" and why should this be any different?

For starters this is a game not a real war, and secondly because it goes against the lore. As well as the mountain of other reasons I've listed that don't seem to be getting through to anyone why this should be changed.

 

[SBerger]

I don't think you truly understand Stannis' position in the Feast for Crows bookmark. His army and navy was just destroyed in the Blackwater, most of his lords and bannermen deserted him when they got trapped in the Kingswood due to the arrival of the MASSIVE, JUST MASSIVE Tyrell/Lannister army. He as adopted a foreign god and most of his remaining followers only see him taking advice from a foreign priestess. He is basically landless, pennyless, and weak. His only support is in the petty Northern lords who already lost so much due to Robb's war in the Riverlands. He is in one of the worst positions possible militaristic wise. Don't expect to doomstack your way to the Iron Throne playing as Stannis, this bookmark is meant to be worked, not earned.

 

[Unclejimbo]

Took intrigue focus in February and had Tommen kidnapped and the war won by May.

 

[Adonnus]

I don't think you truly understand Stannis' position in the Feast for Crows bookmark. His army and navy was just destroyed in the Blackwater, most of his lords and bannermen deserted him when they got trapped in the Kingswood due to the arrival of the MASSIVE, JUST MASSIVE Tyrell/Lannister army. He as adopted a foreign god and most of his remaining followers only see him taking advice from a foreign priestess. He is basically landless, pennyless, and weak. His only support is in the petty Northern lords who already lost so much due to Robb's war in the Riverlands. He is in one of the worst positions possible militaristic wise. Don't expect to doomstack your way to the Iron Throne playing as Stannis, this bookmark is meant to be worked, not earned.

That's the problem. The problem's I've listed make working your way to victory impossible. I want a path to victory that does involve work because it's not supposed to be easy. But first things first is getting rid of Stannis allied vassals in the Stormlands. And yes, kidnapping Tommen I suppose that would work. Though a bit cheesy. I would rather find a way to make a realistic victory

 

[D Toccs]

I would rather find a way to make a realistic victory

Therein is the heart of the problem. You are not looking for a way to win Stannis' tough campaign. You are asking for event chains to be written in order to fit in with your own fanfiction, which from what I gather includes Northmen, Valeman and Riverlanders flocking to Stannis' banner and Stannis claiming the throne.

 

[Adonnus]

Therein is the heart of the problem. You are not looking for a way to win Stannis' tough campaign. You are asking for event chains to be written in order to fit in with your own fanfiction, which from what I gather includes Northmen, Valeman and Riverlanders flocking to Stannis' banner and Stannis claiming the throne.

My own fanfiction? How exactly do you gather that garbage assessment from "a realistic victory?" If you are going to make a last-ditch petty attempt to insult someone instead of answering the points because you know you're wrong and don't want to admit it then at least do it well.

You know what? I've tried explaining my point and reasoning in great detail. You didn't listen. You didn't even attempt to answer the points that I've raised in my previous reply to you, including that the mod doesn't even follow the books in one key section while you attempt to defend the difficulty as "as hard as it should be". Should be according to you? Do you know better than GRRM in the world of Westeros? Because everything I've written is based primarily off of the books. And I've even given little sources too based off the novels, all of which you've conveniently ignored since your pride is obviously so great that you can't tolerate very simple, pointed constructive criticism of your mod. I am pointing out things with full reason that can be done better and you won't even attempt to listen. In your view the mod is perfect and nothing needs to be changed. It's a mod. Not a piece of art. If there is a problem you need to go and fix it. You have an extreme problem with admitting there are things that can be done better and for that I hope the mod is placed in better hands, since it's one of the best ever made for not just CK2 but for any game and unlike you I actually care how it turns out. But like any game there are things that can be done better and that is what updates are for. Not that you seem to understand any of that.

Obviously I've offended your pride as a modder by my three suggestions of mediocre consequence to improve the Stannis campaign in line with how the world is portrayed in the novels. Suffice to say that every complaint I've ever received on my mods I've looked into and playtested thoroughly to objectively asses the problem, and promised to the people who pointed out these issues to change it. Not arrogantly dismissed it as "fanfiction".

You can't take criticism.

 

[SBerger]

Umm, not to bash your point there, but AFFC bookmark is pushing the bookmark is as far as the books go. Stannis is at the Wall and he's marching North. That's the extent we know of his travels. When The Winds of Winter comes out, I'm sure the mod will be updated to show whether SPOILER

Spoiler

Stannis won or lost the battle against of Frey/Bolton army marching against him

. Until we know that, you're going to have a tough time fighting Stannis' war with Crusader Kings 2 war mechanics.

There's no way this mod can replicate the intricate and delicate balance GRRM has created in Westeros, there's no way to mimic how an actual Westerosi war acts out in this mod. This mod uses the Crusader Kings 2 war mechanics, where if you're half way around the world fighting several wars, one with your direct neighbour, of course your direct neightbour will head to your lands. You're basically demanding this mod use a war system not used by the game it's required to play.

 

[Wandering Sentinel]

For starters this is a game not a real war, and secondly because it goes against the lore. As well as the mountain of other reasons I've listed that don't seem to be getting through to anyone why this should be changed.

You have a problem with the fact the war to put Stannis on the Throne is impossible, therefore this is a discussion about the war. Also,

Spoiler: Major Spoiler

According the the Game of Thrones Wiki, Stannis lost the battle for Winterfell and was killed shortly afterwards, which means how it is right now is in line with the lore.
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Stannis_Baratheon

 

[SBerger]

You have a problem with the fact the war to put Stannis on the Throne is impossible, therefore this is a discussion about the war. Also,

Spoiler: Major Spoiler

According the the Game of Thrones Wiki, Stannis lost the battle for Winterfell and was killed shortly afterwards, which means that your argument that these events should be included because the way it is now is against the lore actually supports that things should stay how they are.
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Stannis_Baratheon

Do keep in mind the show has not followed the book plot in quite a long time with many changes made. I personally can't count this a 100% book spoil yet because of the changes Season 5 made in the Stannis/North story. Let's also remember the show hasn't even touched or mentioned

Spoiler

Aegon's landing with the Golden Company

SOOOO, the Stannis story may not pull the way we want it to with him getting the throne. Book Stannis and show Stannis are very different in personality and story.

 

[Pukovnik]

You have a problem with the fact the war to put Stannis on the Throne is impossible, therefore this is a discussion about the war. Also,

Spoiler: Major Spoiler

According the the Game of Thrones Wiki, Stannis lost the battle for Winterfell and was killed shortly afterwards, which means how it is right now is in line with the lore.
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Stannis_Baratheon

As far as I'm aware, AGOT Mod follows the book cannon, not the show.

On topic, I personally don't see the reason to change or adjust anything in the AFFC Stannis Campaign just to make it more winnable, it is a challenge, not a stack roll to KL. If there are some changes to be introduced it will be when we get our hands on WoW, which will certainly require a new starting date, which is a topic for another time.

 

[Wandering Sentinel]

Oh, sorry, never mind me then.

 

[blackninja9939]

My own fanfiction? How exactly do you gather that garbage assessment from "a realistic victory?" If you are going to make a last-ditch petty attempt to insult someone instead of answering the points because you know you're wrong and don't want to admit it then at least do it well.

You know what? I've tried explaining my point and reasoning in great detail. You didn't listen. You didn't even attempt to answer the points that I've raised in my previous reply to you, including that the mod doesn't even follow the books in one key section while you attempt to defend the difficulty as "as hard as it should be". Should be according to you? Do you know better than GRRM in the world of Westeros? Because everything I've written is based primarily off of the books. And I've even given little sources too based off the novels, all of which you've conveniently ignored since your pride is obviously so great that you can't tolerate very simple, pointed constructive criticism of your mod. I am pointing out things with full reason that can be done better and you won't even attempt to listen. In your view the mod is perfect and nothing needs to be changed. It's a mod. Not a piece of art. If there is a problem you need to go and fix it. You have an extreme problem with admitting there are things that can be done better and for that I hope the mod is placed in better hands, since it's one of the best ever made for not just CK2 but for any game and unlike you I actually care how it turns out. But like any game there are things that can be done better and that is what updates are for. Not that you seem to understand any of that.

Obviously I've offended your pride as a modder by my three suggestions of mediocre consequence to improve the Stannis campaign in line with how the world is portrayed in the novels. Suffice to say that every complaint I've ever received on my mods I've looked into and playtested thoroughly to objectively asses the problem, and promised to the people who pointed out these issues to change it. Not arrogantly dismissed it as "fanfiction".

You can't take criticism.

God you really are a bit of twonk aren't you, for lack of any other much more offensive words I could use but would almost certainly get my posts reported and removed.
Don't think that you are some special snowflake just because you are being disagreed with and then use that as a basis to insult one of the people who make the mod voluntarily in their free time, that is not going to encourage any of us to listen to you at all.
You have rapidly moved from passive aggressive to just being rude so how about you just stop being an annoyance and move on with your life.

 

[SBerger]

Blackninja, remind me never to challenge you in a free style rap battle.