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mizushimo

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Apr 6, 2018
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I've played quite a few games all the way through of surviving mars now, all of the milestones are fun to get except the '40% of all citizens in workshops' one. With that one, I end up having to turn off / demolish buildings to force enough people into the workshops for the achievement and then put everything back the way it was once the 40% goal is met. The other milestones feel like part of your colony's natural progression, this one feels like a barrier or a detour. I guess that this achievement is supposed to show that the colony is efficient enough to lose 40% of its workforce, but I'm not sure if that's achievable in the long term since the workshops are also a significant resource drain.

What do you guys think, does this milestone fit smoothly into the rest of the game or could it use some work?
 
Nope.
To make my answer as simple as possible - This achiv is a huge mistake and is really painful.
First I was like - "I don't give a **** about that". But at last, if fells incomplete to finish your colony, without all milestones.
So to this day, when I'm ready to leave and start over, when I have done everything at ~150-200 Sol, I just make a big demolish and build a lot of VR-buildings (because of 10 ppl, and limit of space when >1000 citizen, it is pointless to build for example polymer workshops because of half workforce, and that same amount of required space).
When You have 1200 ppl, lets say about 1000 of them are workforce, so you have to take at least of 400 of them to work in workshops, in the best scenario when u build only VR, you have to build 40 VR buildings. So it is almost 7 basics domes, in case that u will have nothing other than VR there - but ofc u have to take care of basic needs. And with polymer workshop this amount doubled. 80 buildings? It is insane.

When all of milestones feels good, immersive, like a natural evolution process of your colony, that last one is just to destroy everything and make huge short-lasting electronics drain. You have to destroy all the balance of your colony, which u were building this all time and taking proud of it.

The idea is good, but execute is bad. Workshops needs rework. And that last milestone too.
 
I think it would be improved if it were a fixed amount - say, 100 people working in workshops. Then it would avoid the feeling of being penalized for having a larger colony.

Or even better, have it track number of completed shifts. If it required say 3000 shifts completed, then you could have 100 people working 2 shifts for 15 sols, or a smaller amount working towards the goal for a longer period of time. And you would not need to switch into an unsustainable setup in order to complete the target.
 
The framing of the achievement makes it feel like workshops aren't an organic part of the colonies systems. As it is now one look at one's production, stockpiles and free space and decide whether you can go in on workshops. There is no real marginal benefit between having 1% and 39% of the colony in workshops.

To solve this workshops need to produce some sort of resource. However this doesn't necessarily mean that it needs to produce some sort of drone carriable cube. (set your drones to prioritize "self-fufillement cubes")

There are roughly 3 categories of resources in the game:
  1. Grid resources- power water and O2- produced at a rate & not importable
  2. Tangible resources- cubes that drones can carry- raw materials as well as finished goods. Almost all of these can be imported.
  3. Intangible resources- Money & research
(there is a fourth set of quasi resources in labor, living space, working space but their feedback loops are a bit more complex than X metal+ Y power -> Z machine parts. As such, they will be gently ignored in this post)

If one had an enough time one could make a flow chart that shows how each of these resources turn from one to another. Which is exactly the problem with workshops. They don't add anything back into the system.

This is definitely by design and even in many respects a good thing. Workshops exist to drain resources. The point is that culture is the ultimate culmination of society but requires intense material upkeep. But because they drain resources and produce no benefits no vaguely efficient colony will spend on them. Regardless of how a colonist might feel about self expression, from the colony manager's (read: player's) perspective they serve no purpose.

To solve the problem the colony could stand to have another intangible resource. Call it something like prestige.

Workers in workshops produce prestige (Resource+ labor -> prestige). But then also add into the existing set of systems. Add a repeatable tech that increases prestige (Research -> Prestige). Make prestige a possible benefit from anomalies. Add a second type of tourist (e.g. dignitary) acts as tourist except pays in prestige instead of money. Unnatural Colony deaths decreases prestige as well as remove from the colonist pool.

(All of these things need to be tested and balanced of course.)

Then for the achievement add points based on how early a certain prestige level is reached. X points for achieving prestige Y and then Z scaled by time and difficulty. This means that there is no punishment for having a workshop that is not employing 40% of people. The challenge then is examining the colony and finding how much labor can be devoted to prestige as opposed to research or food or machine parts. A score hungry colony wants to get into the self fulfillment racket as early and as often as feasible.

And because I am nothing if not fair, some criticisms of a prestige resource:

1.It would diminish the role of money. Money is already the abstraction of "benefit to earth". Momma Terra only cares about Mars in so much as it can entertain (i.e. Celebrities & tourists), can produce adoptable ideas (the two IP techs) and can give it the rare materials it craves. This is also why some of the anomaly choices give money. But Earth doesn't care about self fulfillment or prestige. There is some tension in making interactions with Terra, especially rover events it the early game, feed into a prestige value. (There is a separate problem that the marginal value of money ->0 as the game progresses.)

2. Narratively workshops are the apotheosis of Surviving Mars. It is saying that the colony has reached a point where decisions can be made that are downright silly from a survival perspective. Why would the colony allocate resources for art when those could be used to fix the factories and the domes?

By creating a resource, however loftily it is conceived, the player is brought back into the efficiency mindset. If an art space produces "prestige" it is no longer about the colonists self fulfillment but rather about contributing something to the colony.

(To an extent we already to do this with workshops. The space v. worker slots requirements force people to be self fulfilled through VR because that is the most efficient use of space. ("What if I don't find self fulfillment in VR?" *cracks whip* "I don't care. Find self fulfillment more efficiently!"))

3. "The rules are made up and the score doesn't matter". Many of the Paradox Development Studio games are technically played for score. In CK2 this is the sum of accumulated Dynastic prestige and piety. In EU4 this is the culmination of military diplomacy and administration ratings over time. But the rub is that the overwhelming majority of players play for non score objectives. Players want to paint maps or do weird dynasty things and have a rather good time doing just that.

In many ways Surviving Mars has the same problem. Personally I acknowledge that score exists but outside of knowing my score modifier I don't know if my score is any good. I have no metrics to measure a good score. And so score is something to get to... eventually. If prestige exists as a resource for scoring it may be quite easy to ignore if you are playing a game where your personal objective something else entirely. There is still a merit in research if the goal is to be self sufficient or reach an unnecessary and impractical amount of money in a way that there isn't with prestige.
 
Perhaps have each workshop produce various quality tiers (the tier being selected via upgrade) of a luxury/specialized good that can be used elsewhere in the colony for various benefits based off the quality: robotics components could be used to increase the efficiency of factories (more precise machines to do increasingly complex tasks), mines (again, better mining equipment or even prosthetic replacements for severely damaged arms/legs in accidents), and clinics/medical centers (robots can do more precise surgeries than human hands); VR could be used to increase the comfort of homes, medical facilities, and some entertainment buildings with a unique one that requires high-quality VR products (think holodecks or something like that); and art/music can be used to boost the comfort of residences, entertainment buildings, and any building that satisfies luxury needs.

In this way, the various workshops add something into the colony that most buildings don't need, but that they benefit from having available and need to have replaced occasionally in order to keep the boosted functionality going (like mines that can use fuel to boost their output) and can provide a happiness boost to the entire colony.
 
My problem with the workshops is from the other direction.

They don't play to any kind of natitave role they dont make it feellike anything is changing. If we accept the game's coneiet that 1 sol is a body time year, then how is it that the same ameanities, the same vices and plesures serve a fledgling reserch station on soll 10, and a thriving colony metropoloace on sol 10,000?
 
The framing of the achievement makes it feel like workshops aren't an organic part of the colonies systems. As it is now one look at one's production, stockpiles and free space and decide whether you can go in on workshops. There is no real marginal benefit between having 1% and 39% of the colony in workshops.

To solve this workshops need to produce some sort of resource. However this doesn't necessarily mean that it needs to produce some sort of drone carriable cube. (set your drones to prioritize "self-fufillement cubes")

There are roughly 3 categories of resources in the game:
  1. Grid resources- power water and O2- produced at a rate & not importable
  2. Tangible resources- cubes that drones can carry- raw materials as well as finished goods. Almost all of these can be imported.
  3. Intangible resources- Money & research
(there is a fourth set of quasi resources in labor, living space, working space but their feedback loops are a bit more complex than X metal+ Y power -> Z machine parts. As such, they will be gently ignored in this post)

If one had an enough time one could make a flow chart that shows how each of these resources turn from one to another. Which is exactly the problem with workshops. They don't add anything back into the system.

This is definitely by design and even in many respects a good thing. Workshops exist to drain resources. The point is that culture is the ultimate culmination of society but requires intense material upkeep. But because they drain resources and produce no benefits no vaguely efficient colony will spend on them. Regardless of how a colonist might feel about self expression, from the colony manager's (read: player's) perspective they serve no purpose.

To solve the problem the colony could stand to have another intangible resource. Call it something like prestige.

Workers in workshops produce prestige (Resource+ labor -> prestige). But then also add into the existing set of systems. Add a repeatable tech that increases prestige (Research -> Prestige). Make prestige a possible benefit from anomalies. Add a second type of tourist (e.g. dignitary) acts as tourist except pays in prestige instead of money. Unnatural Colony deaths decreases prestige as well as remove from the colonist pool.

(All of these things need to be tested and balanced of course.)

Then for the achievement add points based on how early a certain prestige level is reached. X points for achieving prestige Y and then Z scaled by time and difficulty. This means that there is no punishment for having a workshop that is not employing 40% of people. The challenge then is examining the colony and finding how much labor can be devoted to prestige as opposed to research or food or machine parts. A score hungry colony wants to get into the self fulfillment racket as early and as often as feasible.

And because I am nothing if not fair, some criticisms of a prestige resource:

1.It would diminish the role of money. Money is already the abstraction of "benefit to earth". Momma Terra only cares about Mars in so much as it can entertain (i.e. Celebrities & tourists), can produce adoptable ideas (the two IP techs) and can give it the rare materials it craves. This is also why some of the anomaly choices give money. But Earth doesn't care about self fulfillment or prestige. There is some tension in making interactions with Terra, especially rover events it the early game, feed into a prestige value. (There is a separate problem that the marginal value of money ->0 as the game progresses.)

2. Narratively workshops are the apotheosis of Surviving Mars. It is saying that the colony has reached a point where decisions can be made that are downright silly from a survival perspective. Why would the colony allocate resources for art when those could be used to fix the factories and the domes?

By creating a resource, however loftily it is conceived, the player is brought back into the efficiency mindset. If an art space produces "prestige" it is no longer about the colonists self fulfillment but rather about contributing something to the colony.

(To an extent we already to do this with workshops. The space v. worker slots requirements force people to be self fulfilled through VR because that is the most efficient use of space. ("What if I don't find self fulfillment in VR?" *cracks whip* "I don't care. Find self fulfillment more efficiently!"))

3. "The rules are made up and the score doesn't matter". Many of the Paradox Development Studio games are technically played for score. In CK2 this is the sum of accumulated Dynastic prestige and piety. In EU4 this is the culmination of military diplomacy and administration ratings over time. But the rub is that the overwhelming majority of players play for non score objectives. Players want to paint maps or do weird dynasty things and have a rather good time doing just that.

In many ways Surviving Mars has the same problem. Personally I acknowledge that score exists but outside of knowing my score modifier I don't know if my score is any good. I have no metrics to measure a good score. And so score is something to get to... eventually. If prestige exists as a resource for scoring it may be quite easy to ignore if you are playing a game where your personal objective something else entirely. There is still a merit in research if the goal is to be self sufficient or reach an unnecessary and impractical amount of money in a way that there isn't with prestige.

It's unfortunate because this resource partially exists already: morale.

Colonist morale is a combination of many factors, and effects their own productivity. If Workshops provided some benefit to colonist morale, perhaps based on the percentage of colonists working in workshops when compared to the percentage working in other jobs, it would offer the player a tangible reason to build workshops. The increase in productivity when a certain number of colonists are inside a workshop offsetting perhaps the cost of the workshops themselves would be a fiddly math affair but it surely could be done with just some numbers changes under the hood. Then the achievement works with little to no adjustment and feels organic. Arty farty things make us all feel good, right?
 
Workshops do increase morale of colonists... They increase the morale of the colonists working in them, which is probably even more pointless than if they did absolutely nothing but eat resources. :rolleyes:
 
They could produce culture, as a new resource type that could be used for a diversity of things like wonders, unlocking things in a culture tech tree, late game events, large scale tourism, etc. The possibilities are endless.
 
I think it would be improved if it were a fixed amount - say, 100 people working in workshops. Then it would avoid the feeling of being penalized for having a larger colony.

Or even better, have it track number of completed shifts. If it required say 3000 shifts completed, then you could have 100 people working 2 shifts for 15 sols, or a smaller amount working towards the goal for a longer period of time. And you would not need to switch into an unsustainable setup in order to complete the target.

Agree. number of completed shifts is a much better way to get a far value on the milestone.


Perhaps have each workshop produce various quality tiers (the tier being selected via upgrade) of a luxury/specialized good that can be used elsewhere in the colony for various benefits based off the quality: robotics components could be used to increase the efficiency of factories (more precise machines to do increasingly complex tasks), mines (again, better mining equipment or even prosthetic replacements for severely damaged arms/legs in accidents), and clinics/medical centers (robots can do more precise surgeries than human hands); VR could be used to increase the comfort of homes, medical facilities, and some entertainment buildings with a unique one that requires high-quality VR products (think holodecks or something like that); and art/music can be used to boost the comfort of residences, entertainment buildings, and any building that satisfies luxury needs.

In this way, the various workshops add something into the colony that most buildings don't need, but that they benefit from having available and need to have replaced occasionally in order to keep the boosted functionality going (like mines that can use fuel to boost their output) and can provide a happiness boost to the entire colony.

I think this is a what is really needed to the game in my opinion. More complex resourcechains that make expanding worth it - and ad more than just people and more domes. I like to have something complex.
 
I don't know if the workshops necessarily need to produce anything. In my attempt at a 5000 person colony, 37% of workers were in workshops because there wasn't really anything else for them to do. I certainly didn't need all five thousand of them to be creating resources so that my colony could sustain itself. Money is pretty useless late game, I always end up with way more then I can spend after researching the whole tech tree, so I don't think having the workshops create income would be useful. I do like the idea of the workshops creating specialized goods that are necessary for late game buildings. Or the workshops could be working towards societal/cultural innovations that could unlock new things to do in late game, like create festivals, holidays or events.
 
Technically what workshops should be doing is creating score. The problem of this is that that would become the primary way to earn score very quickly, especially if there was no upper limit to how much might be earned...
But, I guess that could be done as a prestige rating, which grants points similar to how population does...
 
One of the things I find frustrating about the stuff added since the original game is that there aren't any Steam achievements tied to it - workshops included. It's like the Devs completely forgot about that side of things - I would've thought the Challenges at least would give plenty of fertile ground for Steam achievements.

Completing the Workshops milestone - which I guess is doable with the right techs etc, but I've never got as far as doing it - should definitely be a Steam achievement, imho.
 
I'm not entirely sure, but I think they can only add achievements on DLC releases. At least I haven't seen any Steam game add achievements on regular updates without a major DLC. But yeah, having an achievement for completing or perfecting the challenges would be nice too.
 
I'm not entirely sure, but I think they can only add achievements on DLC releases. At least I haven't seen any Steam game add achievements on regular updates without a major DLC. But yeah, having an achievement for completing or perfecting the challenges would be nice too.
I don't think this is true. Stellaris added achievements with patches. You may be confused with the Xbox policy.
 
Just a thought, workshops are for late games, normally with increasing pops. So, what about more pops bring sth like unstable society, which can be countered by whatever workshop produces. This can make workshop a requirement for late games. The balance is to be crunched, though.