Could it help? Just strip away completely the upkeep calculations from trade resource entirely and increase it on alloys (would also lower the amount of ships if alloy upkeep is higher) instead.
What do you think?
What do you think?
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That's just a return to 3.14, and it may well be the culprit but it may not.
It SHOULD be as easy as tracking whether something is in friendly territory, which was already tracked for other bonuses like from Unyielding or Sovereign Guardianship. I don't think this would be an added problem in 4.0 compared to 3.14, even if it does produce any lag.
Worth checking, probably. But unless we're dealing with some serious spaghetti code there IS a setting that turns off that upkeep completely. Unless it still calculates it and THEN adjusts it by that setting (including to 0) that wouldn't have any lag produced by that system. That should be easy to check.
It SHOULD be as easy as tracking whether something is in friendly territory, which was already tracked for other bonuses like from Unyielding or Sovereign Guardianship. I don't think this would be an added problem in 4.0 compared to 3.14, even if it does produce any lag.
Worth checking, probably. But unless we're dealing with some serious spaghetti code there IS a setting that turns off that upkeep completely. Unless it still calculates it and THEN adjusts it by that setting (including to 0) that wouldn't have any lag produced by that system. That should be easy to check.
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Since the lag seems to have to do with number of fleets, we're probably not looking at something as trivial as adding up a couple numbers per fleet. It's most likely calculations about what the AI should be doing with fleets.
Let's say the AI has just 1 fleet and two places it's calculated need support. Easy. Just 2 options to consider. Let's say it has 2 fleets. That's 4 options (maybe it's better to have both fleets in one location and leave one undefended). 10 fleets? That's 1000 options. 5 locations for 10 fleets? That's almost 10 million combination. You can see how it's rapidly going up even if there are categories of options that can be removed.
Now the AI starts to move fleets and another AI sees it and calculates a similarly large number on how to respond. This then makes the first AI recalculate. Perhaps a bit of an extreme back and forth, but late game there's a lot more than 10 fleets.
That's probably related, if I had to guess. Fewer fleets would dramatically cut down these calculations. Now there are other options such as the AI grouping fleets together. Maybe it already does this but not enough.
It's possible there's some sort of animation or movement simulation issue that hits numbers of fleets in a way that doesn't hit the same number of ships in fewer fleets too.
Edit: As someone who's name starts with an A* said in another post, economy increases that came with 4.0 also mean more ships so could have made performance issues that were minor into much bigger ones by dramatically increasing the number of fleets.
*I'm really bad with names.
Edit2: pretty sure it was Abdulijubjub
Let's say the AI has just 1 fleet and two places it's calculated need support. Easy. Just 2 options to consider. Let's say it has 2 fleets. That's 4 options (maybe it's better to have both fleets in one location and leave one undefended). 10 fleets? That's 1000 options. 5 locations for 10 fleets? That's almost 10 million combination. You can see how it's rapidly going up even if there are categories of options that can be removed.
Now the AI starts to move fleets and another AI sees it and calculates a similarly large number on how to respond. This then makes the first AI recalculate. Perhaps a bit of an extreme back and forth, but late game there's a lot more than 10 fleets.
That's probably related, if I had to guess. Fewer fleets would dramatically cut down these calculations. Now there are other options such as the AI grouping fleets together. Maybe it already does this but not enough.
It's possible there's some sort of animation or movement simulation issue that hits numbers of fleets in a way that doesn't hit the same number of ships in fewer fleets too.
Edit: As someone who's name starts with an A* said in another post, economy increases that came with 4.0 also mean more ships so could have made performance issues that were minor into much bigger ones by dramatically increasing the number of fleets.
*I'm really bad with names.
Edit2: pretty sure it was Abdulijubjub
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Im not an IT guy so I cant really reply much so I will take your word and agree with you on it
The reason why I mention the trade upkeep is because I remember a very long while back the trade routes calculations were causing lag even though conceptually speaking they were very simple static lines. And hyper relays too at one point were causing the same problem.
Actually, I experienced so much lag with hyper relays when they first launched that I even ended up using a mod that disabled them completely and ironically enough my first time using them was now with patch 4.0.
I will preface by saying I like the new trade resource and the new pop system way more.
But I am not really sure the ships trade upkeep specifically really adds much to the gameplay. I get what they were going for here with regards to simulating a logistics system (more of an economics guy here) but just upping the alloy maintenance costs by 2x~5x would be sufficent and would eliminate an entire backend calculation from the game (however small)
Yea they aren't simple, path finding is actually a crazy expensive operation in general and as far as I know stellaris isn't using an optimized version that does bidirectional search. (People say that lgates and other shortcuts slow down pathing which is only true in single directional search not bi directional).
Stellaris ups the cost a lot because if you can fly through an area or not isn't actually fixed and changes regularly. So a cache for a specific path breaks often.
Ship trade upkeep cost calc is negligible the game already has a bunch of expensive upkeep cost modifications based on ship location. The AI has DRAMATICALLY more ships in endgame right now then it did in 3.14. This isn't really from economic changes as much as the game actually tells the AI to scale naval capacity ALOT sooner then it did in 3.14 in 3.14 it basically only happened when they had repeatables.
That doesn't just scale pathing cost but every single war decision has to loop through all those fleets. Just having more of the scaling like bioships do where we get larger versions of ships would cut down on that alone. Cutting down on the number of small ships like corvettes to be 0 at endgame is going to do far more then anything else TBH.
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Also small pop groups are probably a large contributor to late game lag as well.
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Indeed pathing is a major contributer and why reducing the number of fleets helps with lag. Some time ago in a previous round of performance discussions, a dev confirmed that they do cache paths, but they have to recalculate every time a new bypass is added, such as a gateway.
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Not so sure by this tbh.
In pre 4.0 even selecting a planet with a huge population would hang the game or even crash it
Right now I can select such planets and manage them with no lag so the pop factor has been fixed at least for me
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This should be orders of magnitude smaller now, so I don't think this is a major factor.
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It's not AI related.
I tested for this: if you have lots of fleets, even just lying around starbases and not moving you get lag. I had a save with 50 fleets.
Once I disbanded all of them, the game sped up like x5.
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It is. The pop rework did work in many specific aspects
I can select a planet with far more pops today than earlier (even accounting for the 100x scale) and have zero lag.
In the past even just selecting some big ecumenopolis would lag. Now I have zero lag with them.
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That doesn't actually guarantee that it isn't AI, because it might be making decisions based on those fleets and it might be using too much performance depending on how it does so.
If you still have the save, use the console to turn the AI entirely off and see if that also removes the lag. If it doesn't, yeah, the AI isn't a problem (at least, not compared to fleets), but it might well also work to remove the lag.
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You can just turn the AI off with the console?
It would be really weird if it's just fleets existing. Not impossible. That would be some sort of mess on the engine that needs to get fixed.
it is!
note: these fleets were all full of ships up to the command cap: around 300-400, with mixed hull sizes.
Seems the command to turn off ai is just 'ai'. It's under cheats.
Console commands - Stellaris Wiki
I'd try that with a save before the delete to see if the lag stays.
The biggest source of lag currently is ships being in combat. I believe sth might have gone wrong with combat calculations in 4.0
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As I find the idea of additional upkeep for fleets a tiny step in the right direction, I was first annoyed by the suggestion at face value — and I still think it's the wrong direction — but something else just hit me:
Why do we have constant performance complaints in Stellaris, but not in HoI IV? From my personal experience, HoI IV runs better even in the endgame, and HoI has much more units/entities to move and track — at least on a player level.
So why is Stellaris struggling so much with the 100 or so fleets roaming around the map, while HoI IV has thousands of divisions, air wings, and fleets stomping across the globe, fighting, moving, getting supplied, and calculated — all without reducing the game to a hitching lagfest?
I mean, it could be the animations and the individual ships, but how is that different from individual ships in HoI or air wings and such?
Where is the devil hidden? What is truly creating this? Is it the stiff battle animations and movement? Is it the RTS-style movement system and pathfinding issues? Is it the way each individual ship is tracked and placed?
Or does it lie completely elsewhere? Did we ever get a transparent answer on what the main culprit is?
And why can HoI depict an authentic, globe-spanning war on a massive scale, while Stellaris struggles with 100 fleets on a galaxy map?
From the felt scale, Stellaris seems much smaller in my opinion — yet it creates so many performance complaints.
Why do we have constant performance complaints in Stellaris, but not in HoI IV? From my personal experience, HoI IV runs better even in the endgame, and HoI has much more units/entities to move and track — at least on a player level.
So why is Stellaris struggling so much with the 100 or so fleets roaming around the map, while HoI IV has thousands of divisions, air wings, and fleets stomping across the globe, fighting, moving, getting supplied, and calculated — all without reducing the game to a hitching lagfest?
I mean, it could be the animations and the individual ships, but how is that different from individual ships in HoI or air wings and such?
Where is the devil hidden? What is truly creating this? Is it the stiff battle animations and movement? Is it the RTS-style movement system and pathfinding issues? Is it the way each individual ship is tracked and placed?
Or does it lie completely elsewhere? Did we ever get a transparent answer on what the main culprit is?
And why can HoI depict an authentic, globe-spanning war on a massive scale, while Stellaris struggles with 100 fleets on a galaxy map?
From the felt scale, Stellaris seems much smaller in my opinion — yet it creates so many performance complaints.
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Mandatory 1.9 nostalgia post.
There was no command limit, resulting in large single deathballs much like now but without the extra steps.
Few places worth for fleets to go since outpost-whackamole wasn't a thing and the common warp FTL was just "Do I have range to go where I want to go".
Runs quite smoothly these days. I wonder if an entire fleet rework would be necessary now.
There was no command limit, resulting in large single deathballs much like now but without the extra steps.
Few places worth for fleets to go since outpost-whackamole wasn't a thing and the common warp FTL was just "Do I have range to go where I want to go".
Runs quite smoothly these days. I wonder if an entire fleet rework would be necessary now.
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I can't imagine trade upkeep is hard to calculate. And I quite like it in fact -- if you substitute "trade" for "logistics" that is.