wrong POPs

[Conrad]

I don't expect Vicky to be a work of reference but there are some glaring problems with POPs around the Black Sea.

On the Black sea coast and on the mediterranean Turkish coast there should be A LOT of Greek pops.

This historical modification would also give the Greek player an incentive to liberate the Greek pops.

In Artvin there should be a catholic majority.

In the Crimea there should be very few Ukrainians, but many Tatars, Armenians, Greeks and others.

There are no Jews in eastern Europe.
I know that they were still not that numerous in 1835 but they would consitute an important part of the capitalist and clerk POPs.

I hope Paradox is interested in these issues.

regards,
Conrad

 

[Grosshaus]

Originally posted by Conrad
On the Black sea coast and on the mediterranean Turkish coast there should be A LOT of Greek pops.

In Artvin there should be a catholic majority.

In the Crimea there should be very few Ukrainians, but many Tatars, Armenians, Greeks and others.

There are no Jews in eastern Europe.
I know that they were still not that numerous in 1835 but they would consitute an important part of the capitalist and clerk POPs.

How much? Which province? Which type of pop?

Answering those questions and perhaps providing a link to a source or a quote to verify increases drastically the chance of those ideas to be implemented. Even better if you learn to use the pop-creation tool found somewhere in mod-forums and make the files. Something I have never bothered to do and thus have had several pop-bugs that haven't been fixed.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Speaking of which, isn't it true that there are no catholics in Maryland in 1836?

Maybe mods should open a special ethnicity/religion suggestion thread for such cases.

 

[Conrad]

Yes, it doesn't sound like they're too interested in changing the POPs around the Black Sea.

Perhaps some people would like to arrange a mod named "POPular" or something, where you could add contributions.

 

[Grosshaus]

Originally posted by Conrad
Yes, it doesn't sound like they're too interested in changing the POPs around the Black Sea.

Perhaps some people would like to arrange a mod named "POPular" or something, where you could add contributions.

Interested: yes
Enough time to include all non-exact suggestions on forums for the next patch: no

There is already a place for pop discussions, visit http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=207

 

[Conrad]

Originally posted by Grosshaus
Interested: yes
Enough time to include all non-exact suggestions on forums for the next patch: no

I understand.

OK, I'll give you what exact information I can find.

First I give you the Crimea (it was easy to find)
Crimea:
http://www.iccrimea.org/population.html

The info is incomplete, though. However, it does confirm that there were very few Ukrainians and that the Tatars were the dominant group.

 

[Conrad]

The Armenians made up 18,7% of the population in the Georgian province of Tiflis:
http://poli.vub.ac.be/publi/crs/eng/0301-05.htm

 

[Conrad]

Here is some info about the Greek population on the Turkish coast:
http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupa/ac/acg/default.htm

According to the article it was about 200 000 (probably a very moderate estimate, as the site is a Turkish government site).

I'd be perfectly happy if about 50% of the population in the coastal provinces was Greek (much better than no Greeks at all).

 

[Conrad]

Don't get me wrong. Finding that Artvin was a predominantly Armenian province pleased me.

Here is info about the religious state of the province:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01765a.htm

It is from the Catholic encyclopedia. I guess an easy correction would be to make the Armenians in the province Catholic.

 

[Conrad]

Hope this information helps.

By the way, I understand that it is impossible to get every province right. I also think it is OK to abstract the caucasians as "circassians" as the nationalities number in about 150 in the Caucasus.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Originally posted by Grosshaus
Interested: yes
Enough time to include all non-exact suggestions on forums for the next patch: no

There is already a place for pop discussions, visit http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=207

Does this mean that we'll have to rely on our own modifications? As I understand from your comment, population is a non-issue in the beta-forum?

 

[State Machine]

Originally posted by Alexander Seil
Does this mean that we'll have to rely on our own modifications? As I understand from your comment, population is a non-issue in the beta-forum?

Not at all, it is quite a large issue.

Consider determining the demographics for the whole world in an era where documentation varies and is often not available (or is contradictory, or unreliable for various reasons)...

 

[Derek Pullem]

Originally posted by Alexander Seil
Does this mean that we'll have to rely on our own modifications? As I understand from your comment, population is a non-issue in the beta-forum?

POPs are a huge issue - but they are also some of the most difficult and contentious subjects to research as Conrads piece on Greeks in the Black Sea proves. If a nationalistic Greek player had read that article I'm sure that a conflicting source would be presented.

I can't promise that all the POPs will be modified but where there are glaring errors I'm sure we'll try our best. That is, please don't argue if the Hungarian population was 48% or 52% of a province. But if it was 25% and we don't have any Hungarians in the province please let us know.

Once I get the hang of this mod thing I'll try to set up a separate POP errors section

 

[Grosshaus]

Originally posted by Alexander Seil
Does this mean that we'll have to rely on our own modifications? As I understand from your comment, population is a non-issue in the beta-forum?

No, not just own modifications. Paradoxians and betas tweak pops all the time, but it takes an awful lot of work to do the research and coding. If wrong pops in some regions are only historically wrong, but have little effect on gameplay, fixing them isn't high on priority list. Things like missing catholics in Switzerland with events referring to catholics or way too many clerks in Austria making them an industrial superpower are dealt with first.

I'm certain many pops will be tweaked at some point, but if you want to speed the process and perhaps get them in the next patch, then it helps to provide with more data.