WWM VI-X: The Next Generation

[Rysz]

You had a direct reason. You had a clean scan, and knew a likely wolf. You could have sent me, or Jacob a PM. The chances of that getting you killed (especially if you sent it to me) because of that were lower than the chances of you getting hunted. You simply have to tell someone in micro. There is no time to let things play out.

I had nothing to offer in revealing my role. You most certainly did. The purpose of the hunter is really to survive to the end. That is his only ability, to stop parity. I could have done nothing to help out our cause by outing myself. You could have hedged the risk of EUROwolf butchering the village without risking yourself very much at all. That is just the way it is.

The reason I could not get Jacob to work with me was because he could not believe you were Seer based on the sheer ridiculousness of what happened. You can accept that or not. I really don't care. When I screw up, I admit it and learn from it. I also point out the fact when others do so for educational purposes. Games get better when people learn from past mistakes. Acting like you did just fine does not achieve that.

If you do not like that, then I am sorry. Yes, micro leaves much to be desired, but the point remains. Think things through. That will make all WW games better.

Hmm... This all stands only from the notion that EURO was a likely wolf. However, having read along, and also noting how j-L voted along with EURO, he was not the likely wolf. He was to you, because you knew you were not a wolf, but except for the seer (and you didn't know he had scanned you), there was no way for marty or jacob to know which one of you two was selling the biggest load of bullshit.

But knowing that someone is not a wolf, is not even a reason to start sending PM's out, because you might still hit the sorc. Sorc would just post "hey wolf, jonti is the seer" and fail is upon you. And the villager/hunter would still know nothing. so there's no point.

The sheer ridicoulesness of what happened was because the real action was behind the screens and the thread was just a lot of bullshitting around. You were a major part in that ridicolou@$O*Jness (I hate that word to spell out) because of what you (and euro) did in the thread. So don't start that that made analysis impossible for jacob. He had no information at all, nothing from the seer, nothing from the thread. For him it was just a random guessing game, and he chose wrong.

Also EURO: What was your problem earlier today to which you said: I hate micro, I can't analyse. You were the wolf, you hunted the seer on the one night at which you hunt. Or was that just playing along with the madness in this game?

 

[jonti-h]

I agree with Rysz. He put it better, and more politely, than I would have.

Who cocked up this game?

Everyone did. Aside from EURO of course.
I could have handled the game differently, AOK could have said he was the hunter - the most important player ot keep alive - and Jacob shouldn't have been swayed by EURO's BS. (I was hunted because I wouldn't have fallen for said BS by the way)

I am still at a loss as to how 1) it's all my fault (barring a scapegoat being better than a solution) and 2) how the hell I would have been believed as a seer after EURO's fake seer activity.

 

[AOK. 11]

I agree with Rysz. He put it better, and more politely, than I would have.

Who cocked up this game?

Everyone did. Aside from EURO of course.
I could have handled the game differently, AOK could have said he was the hunter - the most important player ot keep alive - and Jacob shouldn't have been swayed by EURO's BS. (I was hunted because I wouldn't have fallen for said BS by the way)

I am still at a loss as to how 1) it's all my fault (barring a scapegoat being better than a solution) and 2) how the hell I would have been believed as a seer after EURO's fake seer activity.

Okay, If you and Rysz think I should have outed myself then maybe I am wrong.

The thing I do not understand is what I would have achieved beyond getting myself hunted? Euro would have done the same thing I did last game. He would have claimed he was obviously joking, and then hunt me. I would not have really achieved anything then.

Perhaps getting myself hunted would have been the ultimate goal, as that would assure another Seer scan. I guess that is one way to look at it. I guess Jonti could have outed himself, or I could have outed myself and make myself wolf bait in order to try and keep the real Seer alive.

The problem with that is that it gives the wolves a sure goodie kill, and gives them the opportunity to make the Seer irrellavant even if he survives be having the 2 person voting block. However, this was likely nullified by the Sorc being outed and lynched, so me doing a kamikaze could have made sense.

So, I guess this game is really about the micro rule changes. Me nor Jonti tend to approach a problem and seek a solution that involves certain death. That simply does not compute with what we have done over the years and thus I guess it occured to neither of us that kamikaze was a workable solution.

Micro is certainly interesting. I will give it that. You have to approach it very differently. Me and Jonti both were somewhat hindered by our tendency to play like other werewolf games, and thus that is what caused village failure here.

Alright. I understand what went wrong here. Thanks guys.

 

[jonti-h]

Okay, If you and Rysz think I should have outed myself then maybe I am wrong.

The thing I do not understand is what I would have achieved beyond getting myself hunted? Euro would have done the same thing I did last game. He would have claimed he was obviously joking, and then hunt me. I would not have really achieved anything then.

And this was my rationale for not outiny myself.

Perhaps getting myself hunted would have been the ultimate goal, as that would assure another Seer scan. I guess that is one way to look at it. I guess Jonti could have outed himself, or I could have outed myself and make myself wolf bait in order to try and keep the real Seer alive.

The problem with that is that it gives the wolves a sure goodie kill, and gives them the opportunity to make the Seer irrellavant even if he survives be having the 2 person voting block. However, this was likely nullified by the Sorc being outed and lynched, so me doing a kamikaze could have made sense.

You outing yourself would only have made sense on the last day, since there was still the chance of getting EURO killed. Any sooner would have been a waste of the most important role in Micro.

So, I guess this game is really about the micro rule changes. Me nor Jonti tend to approach a problem and seek a solution that involves certain death. That simply does not compute with what we have done over the years and thus I guess it occured to neither of us that kamikaze was a workable solution.

Agreed.

Micro is certainly interesting. I will give it that. You have to approach it very differently. Me and Jonti both were somewhat hindered by our tendency to play like other werewolf games, and thus that is what caused village failure here.

Alright. I understand what went wrong here. Thanks guys.

Again, I agree. Maybe I'm too old school for micro - it is certainly a very different game to other werewolf.

 

[jacob-Lundgren]

I could have handled the game differently, AOK could have said he was the hunter - the most important player ot keep alive - and Jacob shouldn't have been swayed by EURO's BS. (I was hunted because I wouldn't have fallen for said BS by the way)

Dude you knew he was lying because of your role not your "smarts", of course you wouldn't believe it...don't try that superiority garbage now. You had an obvious baddie, a scan of a non wolf and a 2/3 guess regarding the other non-you and non-obvious to you baddie euro. Doing nothing while knowing euro wants you to do nothing reinforces his garbage as now plausible. You literally made his nonsense make sense!

You didn't have to out yourself all you had to do was TRY and influence the game during day 1. You never even voted him or showed up later on to give the other goodies any kind of vague indirect information to work with. Sometimes outing yourself is the best for the group as had aok hanged and you scanned euro I would have been hunted and you die anyways as marty and euro would just hang you with their 2-1 vote edge. Micro requires different tactics than lite and you whiffed badly on those tactics. This is new to us all but tactics ARE obviously different.

This reminds me of the first lite game ever that the goodies lost there also because of a seer worried more about hiding than helping. The goal is winning not survival and your style of staying silent fails in micro. We all made some mistakes but you had the most info and did the least with it. Sorry but if I have one share of the blame and aok one share you get 2 or 3 shares.

 

[jonti-h]

Dude you knew he was lying because of your role not your "smarts", of course you wouldn't believe it...don't try that superiority garbage now. You had an obvious baddie, a scan of a non wolf and a 2/3 guess regarding the other non-you and non-obvious to you baddie euro. Doing nothing while knowing euro wants you to do nothing reinforces his garbage as now plausible. You literally made his nonsense make sense!

1) I am not being superior - if I were, I'd have had a pop at you for falling for his lies, which after I died made about as much sense as a panda in a go-cart.
2) EURO does that all the time - in bad roles and good ones.
3) Lying in ww does not always equal wolf - if it did he'd not have done it.
4) I did not make his nonsense make sense - what should i have done, gon into the thread and shout "EURO isn't the seer, I am!" ?
5) How the f**k was I supposed to know EURO was a wolf? Because he lied in a werewolf game? EVERYBODY lies in a werewolf game, of all roles and none.
6) If I had come out and called EURO, then he'd (as AOK said) have pretended it was a joke, and given the way the last day turned out, got clean away with it.

You didn't have to out yourself all you had to do was TRY and influence the game during day 1. You never even voted him or showed up later on to give the other goodies any kind of vague indirect information to work with.

Influence it how jacob? You got the same PM as I did, and you didn't notice anything wrong with it.

Sometimes outing yourself is the best for the group as had aok hanged and you scanned euro I would have been hunted and you die anyways

AOK didn't hang until the last day. After EURO hunted me, because I wouldn;t play his games while other players would fall for it.
If AOK the hunter hadn't hanged, then the village would have won. Simple as.

Micro requires different tactics than lite and you whiffed badly on those tactics. This is new to us all but tactics ARE obviously different.

Gee, I didn't play a masterclass in my first micro, sue me.

This reminds me of the first lite game ever that the goodies lost there also because of a seer worried more about hiding than helping.

I did not care more about hiding than helping, however, there was no point while the hunter still lived in making myself a target. As far as i understand, while the hunter lives, the wolf cannot win.

The goal is winning not survival and your style of staying silent fails in micro.

I could make a smart-arse comment aboutlynching the hunter at EURO's bequest, but that would be beneath us both. Now I am being superior.

We all made some mistakes but you had the most info and did the least with it. Sorry but if I have one share of the blame and aok one share you get 2 or 3 shares.

I had *exactly* the same info as everyone else, barring that AOK was not a wolf. As he was not hanged until after my death, there was close to sod all i could do about that.

Anyone, anyone who has played with EURO before knows that he pulls crap like that in every game he plays. Do they take him seriously, of course they don't. Did he get AOK killed on the first day, no.

I, as the dead guy gets more blame than the people who lynched the bleeding hunter. There is a fault with that logic.

No, I didn't lead the village to a glorious victory, but to say I deserve 3 times the blame as EURO's pawns is blatently absurd.

Had anyone other than AOK hanged on the last day, the village would have won.

Final vote count
AOK. 11 (2) - EUROO7, jacob-lundgren
EUROO7 (1) - AOK. 11

Clearly that is down to me too yes?

 

[AOK. 11]

Guys, lets just give all of our shares of blame to EURO. He is at fault here.

He is to blame. Dead EURO is best EURO.

 

[jacob-Lundgren]

5) How the f**k was I supposed to know EURO was a wolf? Because he lied in a werewolf game? EVERYBODY lies in a werewolf game, of all roles and none.
6) If I had come out and called EURO, then he'd (as AOK said) have pretended it was a joke, and given the way the last day turned out, got clean away with it.

Influence it how jacob? You got the same PM as I did, and you didn't notice anything wrong with it.

I had *exactly* the same info as everyone else, barring that AOK was not a wolf. As he was not hanged until after my death, there was close to sod all i could do about that.

You had far more info than anyone else not the SAME information. You didn't even make a single public move in a game that lives and dies on it to show you didn't trust the guy you knew had already told 2 lies. You also did influence the game as I said BY making euro more believable. If you are going to be a silent seer at least don't HELP the fake JL look believable. I mean you had euro investing an outing and a PM into his little scheme, multiple PMs in total day 1 and multiple posts and of course knew it was fake but the actions you took helped him. You get more blame the same way a goodie causes a tie of 2 other goodies and then gets hanged the next day helping the wolves out in a lite game. You took a course of action that was a lock to help the baddies by hiding obviously useful info.

I did not care more about hiding than helping, however, there was no point while the hunter still lived in making myself a target. As far as i understand, while the hunter lives, the wolf cannot win.

You did care more about yourself hiding. You didn't have to scream you were the seer but you knew clearly here that hunter is more important than the seer but instead took measures to increase the odds the hunter died. You did take measure to keep the seer alive but if a goodie is hanged/hunted day 1 the sorcerer and wolf can simply hang the 3rd player and it wont matter if you scan him as the scan doesn't help. Marty literally outed himself as the sorcerer and you still sat around figuring euro was what a goodie trying to help the baddies out? Would be different if marty hadn't outed himself but you at that time knew marty, you, and aok could not be the wolf and you had euro claiming to be your role. You literally had all you needed to know to make a huge impact on the game and instead did exactly what the fake seer asked you to do despite knowing for 100% he was lying a LOT not a little.



On the off chance this happens again I will spell out why it was so backwards of a plan. Jonti you knew aok was not the wolf and that marty was the sorcerer and thus aok could not be bad and also the euro was the likely baddie. All you had to do was tell the guy you clearly knew was clean that you scanned him and then late in the day out yourself as the seer and aok not being a wolf. Either the wolf hunts the guy he claims is a wolf or hunts you and backs up your story as the seer. Guaranteed goodie win as hunting me leaves alive you two knowing each others roles and still same guaranteed goodie win.


Ok there should be my last part posted. Jonti I don't fault you for being inexperienced on micro, I am too. I don't fault you for making a mistake in misreading people, I did also. I fault you for hording vital info and not acting later in day 1 when you know 1 of 2 baddies and scanned someone and knew he was a goodie as a result. You had knowledge of the sorc, the seer and 1 clean goodie with 1 of the 2 last players being caught in an extensive lie you easily could bust then. That was plenty enough to act but you waited and did nothing. I fault you for that as it made euro credible and left aok without the key to prove himself.

You can blame me for shooting the good twin but you knew who the good twin was and buried the info in your backyard.

 

[EUROO7]

Guys the game is over.

I won, you lost, get over it.

 

[jacob-Lundgren]

Guys the game is over.

I won, you lost, get over it.

I was hanging out with a friend and fell behind the post game situation. I deserve my time to whine on the forums like everyone else. And you didn't learn the reason you are such a bad scanner so by default you also lost and only marty won as he learned outing himself when the sorcerer is a legit tactic.

 

[EUROO7]

What's that? Losing hurts too much? You can't go on living like this?

Ok, well, see you next game.

 

[Lemeard]

I'm enjoying the aftermath almost as much as watching the actual game.

Oh, and Micro fails

 

[jacob-Lundgren]

What's that? Losing hurts too much? You can't go on living like this?

Ok, well, see you next game.

Hey its ok man just admit it. You will feel better if you just admit marty is outgrowing you as a WWM player. WWM might be too fast paced for you to understand leaving you just mashing your keys and hoping someone else carries you. Marty99 might not always be there for you though.

 

[EUROO7]

Hey its ok man just admit it. You will feel better if you just admit marty is outgrowing you as a WWM player. WWM might be too fast paced for you to understand leaving you just mashing your keys and hoping someone else carries you. Marty99 might not always be there for you though.

Your resentment is delicious.

 

[jacob-Lundgren]

Your resentment is delicious.

You enjoy living at starvation levels far more than is healthy. We may need to intervene to keep you alive.

 

[AOK. 11]

Your resentment is delicious.

No. Your flesh is going to be delicious when I come back and get to be a wolf.

Demon child, Jacob and I will devour you yet.

 

[jacob-Lundgren]

No. Your flesh is going to be delicious when I come back and get to be a wolf.

Demon child, Jacob and I will devour you yet.

I already killed you all many times over. You just need to learn how to refrigerate what you kill aok so that it last a tad longer.

 

[AOK. 11]

I already killed you all many times over. You just need to learn how to refrigerate what you kill aok so that it last a tad longer.

I prefer fresh meat. Preferably taken right off the body with the victim still alive and screaming. I like to season my meat with cries of agony and cook it with the power of my own incredibly insane evil.

 

[Rysz]

-Euro claims to be a seer (did he name his scan and result at that occasion? That matters)
-jonti calls his bluff, and calls AOK clear

At that point: AOK knows jonti is right about him, and AOK might be more inclined to believe jonti. Euro knows jonti to be the likely seer, because he knows he isn't. Marty and jacob, at that moment, do not have more information.

jonti will likely vote euro for being a liar. AOK, knowing that jonti is right, might do the same. Marty and jacob might vote jonti or euro (not knowing who to claim, although jonti giving more information (and hence more risk of being shown wrong) might also go for euro, or someone else completely). EURO will vote jonti ofcourse.

On the last day, those alive will have made their scans according to above information. jonti will indeed probably have been hunted, but at least the goodies also know aok is clear.

You see, it's all about the information, and who claims what and who gets rebuffed about that. And because you have a limited amount of players, those with the role about which claims are made, will know whether it's true or not. They can and will act on that infomation. Perhaps share it at a later stadium, or use it to debuff the claim all together, letting other people know something is fishy.

Ofcourse, lies can be succesfull, or not, that is the skill of the game to make those succesfull claims, or know how to debuff them. In the link to the game where I won as a baddie, I made a failure in my claim, which randakar pointed out to me, but the players didn't see it.

Anyway, this is, more than any other werewolf, an information game. And I still like it.

I will host a new one later today (but if anyone wants to host the next one, feel free to do so). I do not expect it to start immediately, it always is dependent on Lite, but that doesn't mean it's dead or not-feasible.

 

[randakar]

Micro isn't non-feasible, but the old hands seem to think it smells and tastes funny and therefore apparently do not like it ;-)

Jonti is right - it's a different game. It simply takes a slightly different mindset.

How do we feel about the allowing of PM's though? I know Rysz's opinion on the matter - has that changed? Or hasn't it?