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unmerged(2609)

Lt. General
Apr 3, 2001
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Here's the situation.

I'm playing Russia. It's 1706 and I have a BB of 11, which is a little high but I'd gotten greedy.

I had been beating on China for a while, and decided it was time to go for three provinces by declining annexation, and I also decided to get rid of Japan (one province), who was allied with China.

So I Dow'd on China, Japan honored the alliance, I annexed the remaining Japanese province. So now my BB is 12.

Meanwhile, I'm marauding across China, who is sitting there with "minimal" fortresses, so it's a pretty fast maraud.

One of my stacks got kind of short, and it failed the assault, so it took me a few extra months to get another pile on that province.

The AI took the opportunity to DoW on me with the Mamelukes. I finished off China (settlement 3 provinces, BB increase of zero), but now I have the Mamelukes to deal with.

I smashed them and got three RotW provinces in the settlement, for a total BB increase of zero, theoretically.

Meanwhile, the AI attacked me with France, and with Poland. It was extremely difficult to win the war with France, but eventually I got two provinces in North America, and I took two from Poland in Europe.

End of war, 1708. I went and checked BB and it was 16. I'm wondering how this is possible.

Allowing for one point of BB decay, I'm at 10, plus one for the Japanese, so that should be 11. Fine, so the AI is charging me for the European provinces, even though it was a defensive war (from my point of view that is, maybe the AI regarded it differently). That should be 13.

Any ideas where the extra 3 points came from? Did it charge me for the North American provinces or something?

I also find it significant that I was apparently charged for the provinces I got when someone jumped me while I was in an offensive war.

bruce
 
Humm, I does seem a bit wierd.
But I also suspect that you inadvertly might be leaving out certain details.

It is VERY rare to get 3 independant DOWs from 3 single countries. Didn't they have any allies ??
 
If separate peace agreements count toward BB, that is probably the problem. When I'm attacked I try to take apart the attackers individually.

Evetually I will make a tool that will let me diff two save files, so I know exactly what I did.

I guess what I'm reporting is that Huszic's wonderful BB consequence chart doesn't completely describe the conditions if someone attacks you.

I think that the definition of SR and OR for Russia in particular might need to be tweaked. I suspect that SR is any Christian in this case.

I have the save games, so I can do approximately the same war over and carefully detail what happens.

I don't know why I'm interested in this, other than that I like to take provinces but I don't want a high BB, and it's kind of a shock to see your BB go up when you expect it to go down.

Regarding BiB's comment that 16 is not a bad BB for Russia by then, it's very possible to play Russia very aggressively while maintaining an extremely low BB, similar to the way that Huszics showed that you can play Turkey aggressively without having a huge BB.

In this game, by 1705 I'd taken approximately 110 provinces by conquest, most of them outside Europe. I got greedy and ate 7 Persian provinces in one bite, or my BB would have been 5 at the point the final war started.

Essentially all you have to do is concentrate on Asia (including Arabia) and be very conservative in Europe.

bruce
 
I guess what I'm reporting is that Huszic's wonderful BB consequence chart doesn't completely describe the conditions if someone attacks you.

The list you find here on the forum is a quickly made list of the work in progress which you can find fully in the FAQ in Beta page at my site.

Never the less, the distinction of offensive and defensive wars ARE present in it. However it is not well defined, simply because I haven't had time to check every option (separate/alliance peace, singele & multiple enemies and friends, who makes the peace suggestion etc).

My guess though, is that as soon as you make a separate peace you are transformed to the agressive part of that war for which the peace settlement is made. I however have yet to test it out thoroughly.

I think that the definition of SR and OR for Russia in particular might need to be tweaked. I suspect that SR is any Christian in this case.

Yes, the SR concept is troublesome, since there are only 3 religions, Christian, Moslem and "the rest".
Christianity however is divided in several factions (including Orthodox) of which some are considered Heretic by some of the others. The "herecy" status might also change during the game (plausably after the EoT) so one has to check a lot of different things at different times in the game to get all the facts.

Anyway, again, turn to the bate FAQ on my site for more specific info about the religions.
 
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I said I won't check my BB to avoid spoiling the game mechanisms, but eventually, I couldn't help myself...anyway...


The first time i checked it, I had a BB of 25. I wasn't that surprised since I got twice the inheritance event in the game...

But just now, I checked it again, and I get 40 BB points. I read the BB FAQ above but still couldn't understand how I got such a score. Here's what I did (between 25 and 40) :

-I made a DoW without CB on the Iroquois and annexed militarily this country (6 provinces)..But I my understanding was that you didn't get any BB for non-european countries?

-While I was fighting the Iroquois I received 4 DoW from 4 alliances. I eventually made a white peace with two of them. England (leader of the 3rd alliance) offered me 1 colony in exchange for peace and I accepted (not sure if you receive BB for colonies). I made peace with Spain seizing two of her european provinces (One of them being one of my "national" provinces, but I don't think it makes a difference). But it was a defensive war, so I shouldn't have received that much BB points.

-Thereafter I stayed at peace for something like 10 years (so I should have lost 1 or 2 BB, if I understand correctly)

-Then I left the game and I discovered I had 40 BB points.


Could someone explain me how I received these 15 points? The only reason I can't find is the annexion of the Iroquois. But the FAQ seems to state you don't receive BB for such a thing. Also, I created/upgraded several colonies/cities, meanwhile...I suppose you don't receive BB for creating colonies...or am I wrong??

:confused:
 
U don't get any BB for outer European provicnes taken UNLESS u annex them :)

And as said, u xure u didn't make any separate peaces ?

Not xure about this but isn't an expanding colonial empire alos a base for some BB ? Huszics ?
 
BB and CB?

Does being BB negate certain other factors when declaring war against you? I have a high BB (it wasn't my fault, honest) and I declared war on Nippon, who I had a CB against due to their trade policies. All of Europe then declared war on me, including Spain which had a RM, the same religion, and no CB against me and relations of +184 (i had been sucking up to them). Yet after declaring war its stability was 2 (I didn't look to see what it was before the DOW).

On another note, I think that breaking an alliance should give you a CB without any penalties. I had a RM with Austria and was in an alliance with me. When everyone declared war they refused. A few years later they declared war too. Again, no massive stability drop. One thing I'm not sure of is if an alliance can dissolve during time of war if the other party declines to participate. For instance I have an alliance with 4 participants. I go to war and 3 join me, one declines. The alliance renews since we are at war. Does the non-participating country renew as well? After they declined, I looked to declare war on them and although I had a temp CB, I was still going to get hit with the penalty for RM and same faith.
 
I have notice that as well, Michael. And also with Austria RM +175 although I was a very BB.
:D
 
Ok, Bib....


So, I actually got BB for annexing the Iroquois...

I must admit I don't understand the separate peace thing. If I'm attacked by (in this example) an alliance made of Spain and various italian states and make a separate peace with one of the tiny states, will I be considered as the attacker when it will come to make peace with Spain (the leader) later and get BB accordingly???

Not sure it adds up to more than 15 BB, though, even including the 2 spanish provinces and the Iroquois. So, does receiving a colony during a peace agreement gives you BB? And more important, does expanding your colonial empire results in increasing your BB points?
 
Hmmm....Let's see...beginning with 25 BB :


DoW without CB on these Iroquois pagans : 0

Full annex of the Iroquois : 5 + 6 (6 provinces annexed) = +11

Seizing an english colony in a defensive war : 0

Seizing two spanish provinces in a defensive war : 0

Creating 6 colonies : + 6

10 years of peace : -2

Total : + 15 BB = 40


Do you think I could be right or did I make some mistake?
 
Ok...It has been a little tedious, but I checked/loaded all the saves I have made during this period, and I found the correct figures :


DoW without CB on the Iroquois (though not in Europe and not christians) : + 3 BB


Annexing the 6 Iroquois provinces : +11 (I suppose 5+ 1/province)


Seizing a colony, an european province and an european province I claimed (my shield appeared on it) : +2 . So one of the three didn't count. Perhaps you don't get BB for a colony, or perhaps no BB for a province wich is considered "national" or finally perhaps for some obscure "separate peace" reason my war against Spain wasn't considered defensive and I got two BB for the peace with the spanish (2 provinces) and none for the peace with the english (a colony).


No BB for colonial development


10 years of peace : only -1 BB (so it's very slow).


So it seems that you can't really conquer the RotW without receiving many BB. Even the DoW to a non european country was quite costly.


Finally, I'm wondering if you receive -1 BB every 10 years (that is at the beginning of 1600, 1610, 1620, etc...)being at peace or at war. It seems I received -1 BB at the beginning of 1620 though at this moment I've been at peace for slighty less than 10 years. Also, it could be a fourth possible explanation for having received only 2 BB while I took two provinces and one colony. It's quite possible that actually I received +3 BB for the peace (3 provinces) but -1 BB because it was the beginning of 1610.

Any thoughts?
 
In 1.07 it was -1 per 10 years, in 1.08 it should be -1 BB per 4 years.

I don't think u get that many BB from attacking and annexing the Iroquois though. But u'd better ask Huszics.

Also u seem to very much want to know this, which is fine, but I don't relly like to know all the ins and outs of a game to leave that little element of surprise, which I find nice :D
 
Originally posted by brucemo
Here's the situation.

I'm playing Russia. It's 1706 and I have a BB of 11, which is a little high but I'd gotten greedy.
Click to expand...

Hehe I usually have that by 1510..at the latest.
 
Bib,


Yes...I said the same (about knowing the ins and outs)two days ago, but when I begin to be curious...

I'm using the 1.07 version, so, it's normal that I received only -1 BB/10 years.

I'm quite sure the figures I gave for the iroquois are correct (actually, I'm absolutely sure...except if the game decided to give me some BB for no reason at all coincidentally just at the moment I was attacking/annexing the iroquois). But perhaps the number of BB received for non-european countries was reduced too in the 1.08?


By the way, since I had an anti-BB war meanwhile, I had the "pleasure" to note that you get 1 negative BB when you lose a province...(losing a province to Hessen when you play France..I should be ashamed)

Now, I'm wondering if you get BBs for colonies and trading posts...I'll check it during the next anti-me war...
 
Originally posted by laurent


DoW without CB on the Iroquois (though not in Europe and not christians) : + 3 BB
...
I'm using the 1.07 version, so, it's normal that I received only -1 BB/10 years.
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:
I wouldn't try to implement my BB lists on an outdated patch in which the feature was tweaked...

Please stop confusing everyone with potential errors in my BB list (unless you have check with UP TO DATE patches).
 
Originally posted by laurent
By the way, since I had an anti-BB war meanwhile, I had the "pleasure" to note that you get 1 negative BB when you lose a province...(losing a province to Hessen when you play France..I should be ashamed)
Click to expand...

If you actually take a better look at my BB list you will find this info in it too, so it's old news.
 
Originally posted by Huszics


:rolleyes:
I wouldn't try to implement my BB lists on an outdated patch in which the feature was tweaked...

Please stop confusing everyone with potential errors in my BB list (unless you have check with UP TO DATE patches).
Click to expand...


I supposed there was errors in it until Bib told me there has been changes in the last patch. Anyway, I didn't write that in your thread about BB points....
 
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