Your 1 wish for AoW4 in 2025

[seperamos]

Incidentally, I would also like more variety of archers, gunners, and seige units that impact the gameplay so that there's decent alternatives to battle mage units and heroes aoe spam. Either with marking and sniping targets, volley of arrows, or other mundane means of keeping up with long range magic.

There has to be equivalent upgrades to unit stats or it definitely becomes unbalanced. Giving +8hp to units that get +2 def/res puts it to overkill mode and raising it to two would seperate tough and Hardy forms from resistant and Hardy forms, which would solve the t+r combo for ya'll that hate it.

There can be an additional trait that gives a 1 point +5 hp to forms and be a less powerful version of the 2pt one.

 

[GloatingSwine]

raising it to two would seperate tough and Hardy forms from resistant and Hardy forms, which would solve the t+r combo for ya'll that hate it.

No, it would just mean nobody would take it because mount traits exist.

Power-wise I'm not even sure +10HP for 1 is out of line as that's close to the rate you get from special mount traits like mammoth and graceful judge (remembering that optional mounts cost 1 to start with so the extra power budget of the mount traits is basicaly 2 points).

 

[count_m4ximus]

Map and campaign editor + Naval yards so traversing water isn;t just swimming from anywhere anytime

 

[Kitschy]

Incidentally, I would also like more variety of archers, gunners, and seige units that impact the gameplay so that there's decent alternatives to battle mage units and heroes aoe spam. Either with marking and sniping targets, volley of arrows, or other mundane means of keeping up with long range magic.

There has to be equivalent upgrades to unit stats or it definitely becomes unbalanced. Giving +8hp to units that get +2 def/res puts it to overkill mode and raising it to two would seperate tough and Hardy forms from resistant and Hardy forms, which would solve the t+r combo for ya'll that hate it.

There can be an additional trait that gives a 1 point +5 hp to forms and be a less powerful version of the 2pt one.

I don't hate +2 def/res combo I just think it is too good together and it also hits this sweet spot of 4 points that leaves one point that Hardy with it 8HP perfectly slots in and adds even more value. Hardy on its own isn't particularly amazing.
From my perspective +2 def/res combo is akin to Nature Dragon regen of the old (you should definitely remember that). When it's kinda fun but at the same time it is extremely potent mix that overshadows other things.

Now if Hardy would be a 2 point trait then it probably would need to be boosted to something like 12 HP (mb even 15 HP, but that is more on the overbuffing it imo). Elephant mounts comes with 15 HP baked in plus there is other stuff like fewer models, extra movement, Juggernaut ability, all of that for 3 points. (and yes there is also downsides with mounted traits, but there is so much extra stuff that it balances out the negatives)

PS
And traits rebalance needs a thread of its own, 'cause we are derailing this one completely.

 

[Theralas]

Repgrogram the AI to actually be able to offer resistance. Nothing else really matters.

 

[Codyksp]

That is cool, but it is more of Empire Mod/New Realm thing than Pantheon system.
Pantheon is essentially additional layer of faction/ruler mechanical and visual customization. Like ascension skills, origins, society traits and visual things like hats, armor, item icons, etc.



Hardy/Tough/Resistant is definitely exceptionally good, it not only gives substantial amount of EHP especially in the early game but it also is extremely easy to use. It gives you that extra value all time no matter what, so it is really hard to argue that it is not a killer combo in comparison to everything else.

Other stuff tho is more niche than anything imo. Mount Master is good, but it works only on certain units and depends on the mount itself (Elephant is great, Beetle not so much) and it comes with a downside of making you weak to spears (those are the only type of traits that gives a drawback). Also cost becomes very high 'cause it is 3 points for something that only works on some units.


Altho true about competitive experience, you are playing with some aspects of the game moded and this changes your perspective. Like here's an example if you play vanilla then Cold Blooded is phenomenal trait, but in comparison to your mod it becomes a meh trait.

Cold Blooded is a filler 1 point trait just like Hardy/Adaptable. I always speak from a vanilla PoV.
The misconception that I somehow only speak from a modded PoV is very much a misconception.

We start the fights with +5/10/15 morale for some ungodly reason now. That perk should be entirely removed.
There are also various morale increasing effects that have been added since the latest DLC and free update.

What this effectively means is that if you need Cold Blooded to save the fight, you're probably already losing.
Could you pick it? Sure. But it will only bring you value in PvP battles where you're fighting on even footing.

No, it would just mean nobody would take it because mount traits exist.

Power-wise I'm not even sure +10HP for 1 is out of line as that's close to the rate you get from special mount traits like mammoth and graceful judge (remembering that optional mounts cost 1 to start with so the extra power budget of the mount traits is basicaly 2 points).

It isn't out of line. Tough + Resistant need to be made mutually exclusive and that's the end of it.
Both of them individually are still very good for 2 points and Hardy is perfectly fine the way it is.

I don't know why Seperamos is trying to keep this combo in the game and buff 20 other things.

 

[Kitschy]

Cold Blooded is a filler 1 point trait just like Hardy/Adaptable. I always speak from a vanilla PoV.
The misconception that I somehow only speak from a modded PoV is very much a misconception.

We start the fights with +5/10/15 morale for some ungodly reason now. That perk should be entirely removed.
There are also various morale increasing effects that have been added since the latest DLC and free update.

What this effectively means is that if you need Cold Blooded to save the fight, you're probably already losing.
Could you pick it? Sure. But it will only bring you value in PvP battles where you're fighting on even footing.

Sure, but then you are advocating for making moral losses less that imo isn't really needed 'cause we already have a 1 point trait that mitigate the problem.

And yes exactly in a fair fight Cold Blooded is the thing that gives that extra oomph and it comes from a trait that costs only 1 point. It is one of the few meaningful 1 point traits like Hardy, Adaptable and Mount Masters. (every other 1 point trait ideally should get a look and rebalance)
Mount Master is the only one that is in a weird place when it is borderline too much for 1 point but too little if it will be 2 points imo. (it is a problem of how much value mobility brings in general)

 

[seperamos]

Cold Blooded is a filler 1 point trait just like Hardy/Adaptable. I always speak from a vanilla PoV.
The misconception that I somehow only speak from a modded PoV is very much a misconception.

We start the fights with +5/10/15 morale for some ungodly reason now. That perk should be entirely removed.
There are also various morale increasing effects that have been added since the latest DLC and free update.

What this effectively means is that if you need Cold Blooded to save the fight, you're probably already losing.
Could you pick it? Sure. But it will only bring you value in PvP battles where you're fighting on even footing.


It isn't out of line. Tough + Resistant need to be made mutually exclusive and that's the end of it.
Both of them individually are still very good for 2 points and Hardy is perfectly fine the way it is.

I don't know why Seperamos is trying to keep this combo in the game and buff 20 other things.

Because at least 20 other traits need to be buffed. We need apex 5 point transformation traits, all the way down to 1 point traits that slightly improve units In other facets. Once that necessary rework is done, tough+Resistant won't feel overwhelming and still will have a place in the trait system. Because yes, some people want strong units that don't disintegrate after a couple of fights!

Why are general buffs to forms such a terrible thing to have if there are still ways to work around them? With a clear trait rework, other traits will be more competive and organized by tiers. But instead of buffing other traits first, you want to restrict more traits for other players. Its been constant restrictions and downsizing of the game since the beginning of season 2!

Players are always going to try to combine def with resist and highest hp offerings. There has to be the general purpose build to forms. There will ALWAYS be a general purpose build, just work around it with specialized builds and choose the areas and tactics of battles better. Those two traits combined don't guarantee victory.

 

[AnarchyBurger]

Turtle Mounts

 

[Codyksp]

Sure, but then you are advocating for making moral losses less that imo isn't really needed 'cause we already have a 1 point trait that mitigate the problem.

And yes exactly in a fair fight Cold Blooded is the thing that gives that extra oomph and it comes from a trait that costs only 1 point. It is one of the few meaningful 1 point traits like Hardy, Adaptable and Mount Masters. (every other 1 point trait ideally should get a look and rebalance)
Mount Master is the only one that is in a weird place when it is borderline too much for 1 point but too little if it will be 2 points imo. (it is a problem of how much value mobility brings in general)

What I advocate for specifically is to have morale not be so punishing that Cold Blooded is required.
This is what it was like when the game launched. It has since been mitigated somewhat.

But why would you want to force a 1 point trait in 90% of the games? That's just bad design.
Which is similar to why I think allowing Tough+Resistant together is also a poor design choice.

Why are general buffs to forms such a terrible thing to have if there are still ways to work around them? With a clear trait rework, other traits will be more competive and organized by tiers. But instead of buffing other traits first, you want to restrict more traits for other players. Its been constant restrictions and downsizing of the game since the beginning of season 2!

For the simple reason that the developers have limited time and resources to spend on the game.
Therefore changing 2 traits by adding them to a group is far better than trying to rework all of them.

There are other parts of the game that need more attention, this is an easy quick fix for the moment.

Players are always going to try to combine def with resist and highest hp offerings. There has to be the general purpose build to forms. There will ALWAYS be a general purpose build, just work around it with specialized builds and choose the areas and tactics of battles better. Those two traits combined don't guarantee victory.

They guarantee the highest chance of victory compared to any other combination of traits in the game.
It's honestly simple math. How much value a trait brings to your entire match for the cost it has.

 

[white.kelevra]

Oh it's very simple: DLC pack №3!

 

[Kitschy]

What I advocate for specifically is to have morale not be so punishing that Cold Blooded is required.
This is what it was like when the game launched. It has since been mitigated somewhat.

But why would you want to force a 1 point trait in 90% of the games? That's just bad design.
Which is similar to why I think allowing Tough+Resistant together is also a poor design choice.

I disagree that it is absolutely required, but imo it gives big enough of an advantage in a certain scenario. Besides you said it yourself it only shines when fights become a bloodbath for both opponents. In comparison to +2 def/res combo that works in every single situation and significant as EHP increase, it also becomes better the more def/res a unit has.

Also Sep is right in a way that fixing +2 def/res is a small fix, even if we are talking in context of traits. There is still a laundry list to get through when it comes to traits in general, be it Adaptations, Sharp Eyes, Elusive, Keen Sight and so on. All of this still leaves out the problem of how much mobility traits brings to the table and that one is PITA to fix, if it even can be done at this point.

Edit
we should move to this thread with this discussion

 

[seperamos]

What I advocate for specifically is to have morale not be so punishing that Cold Blooded is required.
This is what it was like when the game launched. It has since been mitigated somewhat.

Its an interesting stance to take. There's a lot of factors involved in destroying unit morale and different ways of doing it. There are builds specifically for destroying morale in units and that creativity makes playing the game more fun. I cant say it been a compelling issue for me, but I'm curious what more members of the community think about it.

But why would you want to force a 1 point trait in 90% of the games? That's just bad design.
Which is similar to why I think allowing Tough+Resistant together is also a poor design choice.

I don't know, creative freedom within sensible bounds of form traits? Appeasing players that want clear choices to strengthen units without requiring constant micro with buffs from supports and support based heroes? You could make an argument asking why we don't have +3 def and +3 res traits if we don't have any set criteria for form traits. Why should we just have +2 traits only?

For the simple reason that the developers have limited time and resources to spend on the game.
Therefore changing 2 traits by adding them to a group is far better than trying to rework all of them.

You must be joking with me here. That position would have held some weight prior to the Hero Rework we just had in season 2. A massive overhaul of a previous underperforming but creative system that took key features away and added new ones. Despite the additions of classes, renown, and weapon restrictions, we're still missing many elemental and affinity based skills that have not been updated for the new system. So don't you dare tell me that they don't have the time or resources to improve their own game.

There are other parts of the game that need more attention, this is an easy quick fix for the moment.

A matter of opinion. I'm still anxious to hear more members of the community state THEIR opinions on form traits and other gameplay related issues.

They guarantee the highest chance of victory compared to any other combination of traits in the game.
It's honestly simple math. How much value a trait brings to your entire match for the cost it has.

There are no guarantees in this game. Every battle victory can be attributed to player skill level and their use of the tools given. Their economic ability to make more stacks and get them where they need to go, upgrade speed with research, buildings, cities and wonder control. Form traits, which need a low tier, base tier, and high tier when it comes to combat utility, culture picking that is compatible with the form traits picked, ruler selection that encourages and supports army units from the rear, from the front, or in the middle for maximum tactical effectiveness.

Many, many different variables that simple form trait picking can't overcome.

 

[Codyksp]

Its an interesting stance to take. There's a lot of factors involved in destroying unit morale and different ways of doing it. There are builds specifically for destroying morale in units and that creativity makes playing the game more fun. I cant say it been a compelling issue for me, but I'm curious what more members of the community think about it.
I don't know, creative freedom within sensible bounds of form traits? Appeasing players that want clear choices to strengthen units without requiring constant micro with buffs from supports and support based heroes? You could make an argument asking why we don't have +3 def and +3 res traits if we don't have any set criteria for form traits. Why should we just have +2 traits only?

Because making for example +1, +2 and +3 is a very arbitrary thing and not interesting at all.

The main problem with form traits is that they are chosen before t he game and permanent.
Therefore anything that is a gamble on whether or not it will be assisting you is not worth picking.

You must be joking with me here. That position would have held some weight prior to the Hero Rework we just had in season 2. A massive overhaul of a previous underperforming but creative system that took key features away and added new ones. Despite the additions of classes, renown, and weapon restrictions, we're still missing many elemental and affinity based skills that have not been updated for the new system. So don't you dare tell me that they don't have the time or resources to improve their own game.

Just because the developers did a specific rework doesn't mean they will do another rework. Manage your expectations.

There are no guarantees in this game. Every battle victory can be attributed to player skill level and their use of the tools given. Their economic ability to make more stacks and get them where they need to go, upgrade speed with research, buildings, cities and wonder control. Form traits, which need a low tier, base tier, and high tier when it comes to combat utility, culture picking that is compatible with the form traits picked, ruler selection that encourages and supports army units from the rear, from the front, or in the middle for maximum tactical effectiveness.

Many, many different variables that simple form trait picking can't overcome.

This is irrelevant when you have two players of the same level of skill, and that's what you should balance around.

 

[Orphalesion]

Mushroom People.

 

[Motasa]

Snow-capped mountains.

 

[Lord Sheogorath]

More mechanisms for differentiating undead, machines (and maybe plants) from most other units. Why does bless work on undead? And regeneration on machines? Why does the "X weapons" and "X armor" enchantments affect animals who don't use armour and weapons? I just want more consistency between story/descriptions and gameplay.

 

[TheRealGourmet]

Without doubt.

Level editor.

Have been wanting this so badly

 

[Thiend]

Deep ocean map layer is my clear winner. Ability to be a deep-ocean civilization that lives underwater included ideally.

More likely runner-up would be just expanded water gameplay generally, such as allowing SPIs on water (perhaps ones unique to the water?). But I don't want that even half as badly, I just think adding another map layer is somewhat unlikely.

 

[Streletz]

A map/scenario editor (and also a faction editor, where you can preselect which tomes a certain faction will pick).

Please Triumph, I had so much with community maps for AoW 3 and 2. Some games like Heroes of might and magic 3 are alive 20 years after their release because people still create interesting scenarios for it.