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CK2 Dev Diary #102 - About that one dead religion...


Greetings.

Well, then... Holy Fury will make Hellenism playable.

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Now, now, let us be clear: there are not going to be any significant changes in the game’s history. Holy Fury will simply offer a couple of ways for a ruler to revive the religion when meeting some strict requirements.
This is no easy choice to make, of course, as doing so will likely make your character reviled by both vassals and neighbors alike and cause your realm to fall into a crippling civil war, but then again, if the cause is just...

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The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
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Naturally, if you decide to do so, your Abrahamic vassals will assume that you have gone insane (which, I suppose, may very well be the case...) and likely band together in a large revolt to depose you. Be aware that defeat during this civil war could easily result in a game over: if your heir is also a pagan like you, the leader of the rebellious vassals will take over the entire Empire for himself and away from your heathen dynasty.
On the other hand, if you are successful, you will be able to remain in power and some of your less reluctant vassals might decide that embracing Hellenism is not such a ludicrous proposition after all.

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While not entirely connected to the Hellenic Restoration, I would also like to talk about a few other additions that have been slipped in the old Roman Empire revival event chain.
First of all, remember how the silly Pope tends to fill Rome with Church holdings, making the city not exactly palatable as a feudal capital? Well, worry no more! For now, after restoring the Empire (and provided that Rome has two or more temple holdings), your ruler will be given the chance to emulate Nero and clean up the place a bit. It might seriously hurt Catholic Moral Authority and the local peasants might get really upset about it, but, at the end of the day, aren’t those empty slots worth it?

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A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire. On a practical level, this will allow your realm to become more homogenous, as provinces and rulers belonging to any Latin culture will be very susceptible to switch to the new one and, if you are Hellenic, they will also have a chance to switch both culturally and religiously when embracing the new renaissance. On a roleplaying level, your characters will get swanky new togas to dress in.

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Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.

This is it for what concerns the means to resurrect Hellenism, but what about the religion itself?
You will be pleased to know that it is no longer an empty husk and has now actual flavor and mechanics to it.

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First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
As for how the religion starts, Hellenism is now strictly monogamous (no concubinage), and does not have access to Pagan Subjugation. On the other hand, all Roman and Byzantine events previously restricted to Christians are now also available to Hellenic rulers (chariot races, Imperial Reconquests, etc.). Additionally, Hellenism starts having by default the effects of the Haruspicy and Astrology Doctrines, as well as having access to a new unique mechanic: temple dedication.

As a Hellenic ruler, you will be able to dedicate any temple holding within your realm to one of the twelve main deities of your pantheon. Doing so will give your ruler a temporary boost as well as activate a special building granting a permanent bonus to the holding’s province. These dedicated shrines are permanent, merely becoming inactive when under a ruler of a different religion. The kind of boost that they grant is naturally tied to the god they are being dedicated to.

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Finally, Hellenism has been given access to a few societies, though most of them, like the religion, will need to be recreated by a powerful ruler before becoming active.
Aside from having immediate access to Hermetics, Hellenics can now form the Stoics (a Monastic Order), the Bacchants (a Satanist society), and the Olympian Champions (a Warrior Lodge). Aside from their outlook, the Stoics and Bacchants work exactly as their Christian counterparts, with the one exception being that the Rank 4 County Conversion power of the Stoics will convert a province culturally rather than religiously.

Well then, this should cover most of it.


Note: As we are aware that the inclusion of the Hellenic religion might break immersion for some of our players, we have included a Game Rule to go with it. If the rule is turned off, it will disable the Delve into Classics decision and the Hellenic Revival event chain following the Roman Empire’s restoration, removing any chance of the religion reappearing in a regular game (though note that the religion might still spawn in Random World, depending on what settings you use when generating its history).
 
I am already imagining my custom game playing as a Macedonia kingdom ( I will see how I will make it happen somehow edit names etc,..) and conquer the Persian Empire! What a sweet flavour will be ...
You decadent Romans are nothing more then agents of Zahhak. You shall tremble at the truth and beauty of Ahura Mazda, lord of wisdom.
 
Now, all I can see myself is playing the duke of Athens post 4rth Crusade delving deep into the Philosophers of old and becoming a Hellenic pagan in that messy bookmark hehe
 
I read that Romans will have Italian gfx faces. Does that keep true even if you start the Roman renaissance as Greek? (not that I intend to, I'll be playing in Romagna) :p
Yes. Naturally the Greek rulers will not change physically, they will just gain the Roman clothes. The Roman Renaissance requires you to move your capital back in Rome (Italy), so it makes sense that eventually the courtiers of your new administration will start look somewhat Italian as well.

Is the Latin Empire able to restore the Roman Empire?
No, the only changes in the requirements to restore the Roman Empire are that now you can be a Christian or Hellenic (rather than be locked to Christians only).

I don't know if it possible, but the name of the gods should depend on the cultures of the provinces, also, we are talking about a Roman culture, but is should rapresent somewhat the difference beetween hellenic east and latin west. For example with roman culture, what about the names? They will be only latin or greek will stay? To be an empire with a greek flavour I must refuse to change culture to Roman? Roman will be a melting pot or it's going to flatten on latin all the provinces western and eastern?

Probably all this it's too much complicated, but I propose only a simple thing: a decision based on the culture so no arbitrary (italin, roman\ greek) to switch beetween god names instead to be locked all the game with the names you receive when you revive hellenism.

I do not disagree on the principle, but, like you say, this sort of granularity would require a lot of work to be implemented. If you wish to have Greek Gods, just Reform Hellenism before starting the Roman Renaissance, the change in the Pantheon will happen on Reformation and will check only at the time of the reformation what culture the Reformer belongs to. It will not change again later if you become Roman. Conversely, if you want to keep them Latin, wait to Reform until after the Renaissance (or have a non-Greek Emperor doing the Reformation).

As for the culture spread, Roman culture will be very contagious in Italy and towards other Latin cultures. Italian especially is likely to be wiped out if you start the Roman Renaissance. Greek specifically, as it was the case historically, is going to be significantly more resilient to it.

Are we going to get some new art for Hellenic temple baronies? In the screenshots they are still churches.
They have new art. The screenshots were taken a long time ago.

On which note... Will the unavailability of the Imperial Conquest CB against titles in the Kingdom of Corsica and Sardinia be fixed in the upcoming patch, by any chance?
It will indeed be fixed.
 
Haruspicy, Astrology and Dedicated Temple are unique Hellenic flavor, they are never lost on Reformation.

Two questions about this:
Do other pagans have similar cases of features that will never be lost on reformation?
Does this mean we could accidentally, and pointlessly, choose the Haruspicy or Astrology doctrine when reforming?

By the way, thanks for still answering questions this late!
 
It has its own modifiers to try and give the idea of a natural spread over the more compatible cultures.

Mind if I ask again if you’re going to de-anglicize the Roman names?

Also, a minor suggestion: Instead of Roman Renaissance, Roman Renovatio. Same basic implication, but more Latin-y.
 
First of all, I wonder what that "secret" addition will be about (if it's really a thing), considering that this update was "NOT ENOUGH" to cause major uproar. I can only imagine the hidden update will cause complete mayhem! Maybe you'll be able to find pre-historic alien nuke under the pyramids. :D

As for the major deity renaming thing, what about religion icons?
Fir example; the major deity for Slavic paganism is Perun, and the religion itself bears his personal symbol as an icon... Aaand what IF you pick up a doctrine than changes the major God to Svarog for example, I doupt it will change the religion's icon to Svarog's kolovrat, or would be that possible to implement it? For flavour and immersuon purposes.

Anyways, thank you for this update, it made me laugh when I saw Zues Vult at CK2 Wiki dev page. I really do look forward to it, yet another way to change history :)
 
@Silfae Once you turn Hellene as the Roman Empire (and assuming you don't die instantly due to the revolt), can you instantly reform the Hellenic faith or is there something else to do? You'll most probably have the 5 holy sites and enough piety to do it instantly
 
Well then..

Paradox is really developing ck2 into a fantasy game. So sad.

Reinstalling hellenism in the middle ages is simply ridiculous.

The idea was dead right after the death of Julian the apostate.

Playing hellenism is something for the upcoming Imperator game..
They did mention that this will be possible to turn off in the game rules. Every fantastical element other than alternate history is possible to turn off in the game rules
 
Now we just need an Imperial Cult. Anyone refusing a call to prayer, in your name, can be imprisoned for treason and even executed without penalty from your devout believers :)

This DLC is GOLD ! Congratulations to Dev team for what you achieved till now.. and there's more?? Zeus!

Zeus Vult!

I considered doing it, but there was no time for it, unfortunately. You can create a Hellenic Holy Order and the Hellenic Warrior Lodge though.

A possibility would be for the Varangian Guard to changs name to the Praetorian Guard if held by a ruler of Roman culture. This way at least the Byzantines can have it.

Gladiator! Wanna see my prisoners fighting each other or against lions to the dead for their freedom though :(

New prison interaction. You can set up 1 against 1 duels. Depending on their Martial Skill and personal combat skill, there's an event chain where the Crowd does or does not demand the release of the victor. But in the end it's ultimately your decision, though if you refuse, you will get -100 prestige.

That would be really funny. An insane Pope throwing this God and Jesus thingy out of the window and instead going back to worship Jupiter

Damn. The amount of Anti-Popes and papal wars to impose of this madman :p
 
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I'll just say thanks for making this a game rule, so I can toss it in the garbage bin along with the Satanists. Still annoyed that it consumed an entire DD, but what can you do?
 
Yes. Naturally the Greek rulers will not change physically, they will just gain the Roman clothes. The Roman Renaissance requires you to move your capital back in Rome (Italy), so it makes sense that eventually the courtiers of your new administration will start look somewhat Italian as well.


No, the only changes in the requirements to restore the Roman Empire are that now you can be a Christian or Hellenic (rather than be locked to Christians only).



I do not disagree on the principle, but, like you say, this sort of granularity would require a lot of work to be implemented. If you wish to have Greek Gods, just Reform Hellenism before starting the Roman Renaissance, the change in the Pantheon will happen on Reformation and will check only at the time of the reformation what culture the Reformer belongs to. It will not change again later if you become Roman. Conversely, if you want to keep them Latin, wait to Reform until after the Renaissance (or have a non-Greek Emperor doing the Reformation).

As for the culture spread, Roman culture will be very contagious in Italy and towards other Latin cultures. Italian especially is likely to be wiped out if you start the Roman Renaissance. Greek specifically, as it was the case historically, is going to be significantly more resilient to it.


They have new art. The screenshots were taken a long time ago.


It will indeed be fixed.

you keep mentioning roman being contagious among other latin cultures? is there a degree of separation for Visigothic and vlach compared to say italian and french?
 
The three brothers: Zeus, Poseidon, Hades.
Gods of War: Ares, Athena, Ephaestus.
Gods of Prosperity: Demetra, Aphrodites, Hestia, Hermes.
Heavenly Twins: Apollo and Artemis.

I'm fairly certain that you mean Hephaestus (equivalent of Vulcan). Is this a typo, or is the 'H' dropped in Swedish? I only ask because it took me 10 minutes to figure out who you meant.
 
If I can mention-- The Roman name for Lord Haides is "Dis Pater," not Pluto. Pluto is Greek (Ploutōn, meaning "wealthy"), and refers to the God's role as a God of wealth, specifically over the riches of the earth. This is how the God would be approached in most cultus, since the name Haides is much more so associated with the God's role during funerals, which was relatively taboo in Hellenism.
 
I'll just say thanks for making this a game rule, so I can toss it in the garbage bin along with the Satanists. Still annoyed that it consumed an entire DD, but what can you do?

I was in the "Hellenism is not going to happen so let's stop talking about it" camp, and I'll say you're being pointlessly negative, dude.
 
Do other pagans have similar cases of features that will never be lost on reformation?
Does this mean we could accidentally, and pointlessly, choose the Haruspicy or Astrology doctrine when reforming?
The Doctrines are simply not available for Hellenism. Things that are inherent for other Pagans are flavor such as Blots, Patron Gods, etc.
As for the major deity renaming thing, what about religion icons?
No, religious icons have always been static, making them dynamic would require a lot of work.

you keep mentioning roman being contagious among other latin cultures? is there a degree of separation for Visigothic and vlach compared to say italian and french?
Visigothic and Vlach are not in the Latin group, so yes.

I'm fairly certain that you mean Hephaestus (equivalent of Vulcan). Is this a typo, or is the 'H' dropped in Swedish? I only ask because it took me 10 minutes to figure out who you meant.
Yes, that is a typo. I don't know about Swedish, but it definitely is dropped in Italian.
 
The H is dropped in modern Greek too, but in polytonic ancient Greek it would have a breathing mark to indicate the H sound.
 
The Doctrines are simply not available for Hellenism. Things that are inherent for other Pagans are flavor such as Blots, Patron Gods, etc.

No, religious icons have always been static, making them dynamic would require a lot of work.


Visigothic and Vlach are not in the Latin group, so yes.


Yes, that is a typo. I don't know about Swedish, but it definitely is dropped in Italian.

So does roman renaissance effect the Iberian culture group? there just as much descendants of Latin as French and Italian, same with Vlachs speaking Romanian? Thanks for any answer in advance :)