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CK2 Dev Diary #102 - About that one dead religion...


Greetings.

Well, then... Holy Fury will make Hellenism playable.

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Now, now, let us be clear: there are not going to be any significant changes in the game’s history. Holy Fury will simply offer a couple of ways for a ruler to revive the religion when meeting some strict requirements.
This is no easy choice to make, of course, as doing so will likely make your character reviled by both vassals and neighbors alike and cause your realm to fall into a crippling civil war, but then again, if the cause is just...

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The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
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Naturally, if you decide to do so, your Abrahamic vassals will assume that you have gone insane (which, I suppose, may very well be the case...) and likely band together in a large revolt to depose you. Be aware that defeat during this civil war could easily result in a game over: if your heir is also a pagan like you, the leader of the rebellious vassals will take over the entire Empire for himself and away from your heathen dynasty.
On the other hand, if you are successful, you will be able to remain in power and some of your less reluctant vassals might decide that embracing Hellenism is not such a ludicrous proposition after all.

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While not entirely connected to the Hellenic Restoration, I would also like to talk about a few other additions that have been slipped in the old Roman Empire revival event chain.
First of all, remember how the silly Pope tends to fill Rome with Church holdings, making the city not exactly palatable as a feudal capital? Well, worry no more! For now, after restoring the Empire (and provided that Rome has two or more temple holdings), your ruler will be given the chance to emulate Nero and clean up the place a bit. It might seriously hurt Catholic Moral Authority and the local peasants might get really upset about it, but, at the end of the day, aren’t those empty slots worth it?

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A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire. On a practical level, this will allow your realm to become more homogenous, as provinces and rulers belonging to any Latin culture will be very susceptible to switch to the new one and, if you are Hellenic, they will also have a chance to switch both culturally and religiously when embracing the new renaissance. On a roleplaying level, your characters will get swanky new togas to dress in.

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Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.

This is it for what concerns the means to resurrect Hellenism, but what about the religion itself?
You will be pleased to know that it is no longer an empty husk and has now actual flavor and mechanics to it.

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First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
As for how the religion starts, Hellenism is now strictly monogamous (no concubinage), and does not have access to Pagan Subjugation. On the other hand, all Roman and Byzantine events previously restricted to Christians are now also available to Hellenic rulers (chariot races, Imperial Reconquests, etc.). Additionally, Hellenism starts having by default the effects of the Haruspicy and Astrology Doctrines, as well as having access to a new unique mechanic: temple dedication.

As a Hellenic ruler, you will be able to dedicate any temple holding within your realm to one of the twelve main deities of your pantheon. Doing so will give your ruler a temporary boost as well as activate a special building granting a permanent bonus to the holding’s province. These dedicated shrines are permanent, merely becoming inactive when under a ruler of a different religion. The kind of boost that they grant is naturally tied to the god they are being dedicated to.

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Finally, Hellenism has been given access to a few societies, though most of them, like the religion, will need to be recreated by a powerful ruler before becoming active.
Aside from having immediate access to Hermetics, Hellenics can now form the Stoics (a Monastic Order), the Bacchants (a Satanist society), and the Olympian Champions (a Warrior Lodge). Aside from their outlook, the Stoics and Bacchants work exactly as their Christian counterparts, with the one exception being that the Rank 4 County Conversion power of the Stoics will convert a province culturally rather than religiously.

Well then, this should cover most of it.


Note: As we are aware that the inclusion of the Hellenic religion might break immersion for some of our players, we have included a Game Rule to go with it. If the rule is turned off, it will disable the Delve into Classics decision and the Hellenic Revival event chain following the Roman Empire’s restoration, removing any chance of the religion reappearing in a regular game (though note that the religion might still spawn in Random World, depending on what settings you use when generating its history).
 
I agree and I think it's a real pity that Dionysus gets forced into the "Satan" role. Kronos (not Saturn, but Kronos) or Typhon would have been better choices.

But well, I guess it works for the context of a theoretical, Medieval revival of Helenism and if you consider that the cult of Dionysus was initially persecuted in Ancient Greece. Maybe the revival decides that Dionysus is too Middle Eastern and too much like that Christ guy to fit into their version of Hellenism, or the revival associates him with Christ, who in turn becomes the "enemy" and drags down Dionysus with him.
Typhon would make more sense, not Kronos. Kronos saw actual cultus in the ancient world-- especially in Rome (Saturnalia!)
 
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Having a Bacchic cult be a Satanic equivalent is strange. A big point of Dionysian cults was liberation of the soul from the painful cycle of metempsychosis (reincarnation). Especially odd since many of the last Hellenic holdouts in the 700s-800s were Dionysian, such as the Orphic cults in Thrace that the Bulgars came across. I recommend The Other God: Dualist Religions from Antiquity to the Cathar Heresy which talks about these communities surviving up to the 10th century in the chapter "Paganism, Heresy, and Christianity." From the book:
"In the northern and eastern Balkans the Bulgars and the Slavs encountered relics of ancient Balkan paganism, like the Thracian religious cults, and perhaps vestiges of mystery religions. Various beliefs and practices associated with the old mystery cult proved unusually persistent in the Balkans, having endured through the centuries in folklore and quasi-Christian customs. Apart from the publicizing of folkloric relics of Orphic and Dionysian mysteries in certain regions in Thrace, a set of rituals preserved in the western Balkans have been shown to bear recognizable traces of the ancient cult of the Dioscuri and the classical mysteries of Samothrace."​

The Bulgarians absorbing Orphism had interesting effects on Balkan folk magic, even today, with rituals potentially relating directly with Orphic magical practice. This talks about a healing ritual which shows this:
https://www.academia.edu/5841098/White_red_and_black_Bulgarian_healing_ritual

For a "Satanic Society" equivalent, I much more so recommend some sort of sorcery cult, which engages in superstitio (Greek: Deisidaimonia, which was "bad religion" essentially). Think of summoning and manipulating evil spirits, curse tablets, necromancy, love spells, etc. This would also justify the human sacrifice which sometimes happen with the "Satanic Societies" in the game. Human sacrifice was alien to Dionysian cults-- but human sacrifice could be performed in some "Satanic Society" equivalent if it were engaging in explicit superstitio. The act was condemned in most of Hellenism, and ended up being made illegal by the late Roman Republic (and reinforced by later Roman Emperors, like Hadrian).

I did send this to Silfae already, but I just thought it would be good to share.
 
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And I thought I was hyped before...
 
So does roman renaissance effect the Iberian culture group? there just as much descendants of Latin as French and Italian, same with Vlachs speaking Romanian? Thanks for any answer in advance :)
It has always seemed strange to me that in the game the Iberians are farther culturally from the Italians than the Normans are.
 
Adding/removing god names is going to be super useful if we want to write religions that are outright syncretic with another religion. For example, a pagan religion that syncrenizes with Christianity on reformation to become a hybrid can add Jesus and God or culturally appropriate names to their God list.
 
This looks like the best time to create a Graeco-Roman themed UI, with amazing marblework, columns, coloured pottery buttons, and mosaics. It could be exclusive to Hellenist religion, or it could also be used for Greek culture in general (because Byzantium).

Come on Paradox, we've had one each for Christian, Indian, Muslim and Pagan...and trade republics, for a very long time. I'd gladly pay for a mini-DLC that adds UI designs for each religion or religious group. :D
 
Adding/removing god names is going to be super useful if we want to write religions that are outright syncretic with another religion. For example, a pagan religion that syncrenizes with Christianity on reformation to become a hybrid can add Jesus and God or culturally appropriate names to their God list.

So how would the cult of the virgin Madonna-Aphrodite work? :p
 
The Doctrines are simply not available for Hellenism. Things that are inherent for other Pagans are flavor such as Blots, Patron Gods, etc.

No, religious icons have always been static, making them dynamic would require a lot of work.


Visigothic and Vlach are not in the Latin group, so yes.


Yes, that is a typo. I don't know about Swedish, but it definitely is dropped in Italian.

It's not pronounced in post-classical Greek, and vulgar Latin drops "h" left and right. It's not the traditional way of spelling it, but coincidentally it ended up the way it's pronounced. Funny, that.
 

While you have very valid points, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here. I think the reason they chose to use Bacchus for the Satanists is not the portrayal of Bacchus as an evil god, but rather the nature of his followers to submit to base urges. Satanists doing things like mass orgies and reveling in sin would make a fair bit of sense, I would think, for Bacchus cultists. The demonology and all that doesn't quite fit, though.
 
I know, I'm like 70% sure I'm talking about playable Hellenism myself...

It's that remaining 30 % that will always get you in the end... :p
 
I suppose Neoplatonism could work as a heresy

Neoplatonism is basically what medieval Hellenism is anyway, and is potentially reflected through the Hermetics if not through the religion itself. Same reason why the monastics are the Stoics: the Neoplatonists are already their own thing.
 
While you have very valid points, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here. I think the reason they chose to use Bacchus for the Satanists is not the portrayal of Bacchus as an evil god, but rather the nature of his followers to submit to base urges. Satanists doing things like mass orgies and reveling in sin would make a fair bit of sense, I would think, for Bacchus cultists. The demonology and all that doesn't quite fit, though.
It's especially odd since the whole "mass orgies and reveling in sin" thing was really not applicable for most Dionysian cults and worship. Along with how Dionysian worship came to be legalized in Rome after Julius Caesar, and as mentioned already, they made up much of the Hellenic remnants post-Julian.
 
Like all pagan religions, it only gets an "Old" version of it once it reforms, no other heresies.
But shouldn’t the other set of the gods be considered a heresy? Because the Roman variants on the Greek gods are more war like, and the Greek variants of the Roman gods are more diplomatic like. Then again that would be more culture based than religion based. So I guess the different names could be considered a heresy to the ruling culture?