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CK2 Dev Diary #105 - Clergy Interactions Revamp

Hello, everyone.

Today we will be talking of a nice quality of life update to the interface, AI behavior and some new additional flavor regarding the Papacy (as well as any similar religious head that has access to these interactions, such as a Reformed Pagan High Priest with Hierocratic Leadership).

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The patch coming with Holy Fury will place all Papal Actions in a more easily accessible list of icons, right under the portrait of your religious head in the Religion screen.

Furthermore, the behavior for all these actions has been un-hardcoded and fully scripted, so the Pope is now much more sensible when deciding who he wants to Excommunicate, and less restrictive when considering the possibility of granting an Invasion casus belli to an ambitious ruler. More importantly, players are now able to see exactly why their religious head is denying them a request.

The AI logic itself has been considerably expanded and tailored to the various actions.

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Having a vassal Pope no longer ensures that all your demands will be automatically accepted, and having an independent Pope will not make it near-impossible to get a favor from him. The Pope will take into consideration Opinion, Piety, traits, the specific circumstances (such as divorcing an infertile wife), and the amount of controlled Cardinal seats when deciding whether to accept a ruler’s request or not. Piety costs for these interactions have also been rebalanced and tied to the ruler’s tier, making them more accessible to low ranking rulers and costlier to Kings and Emperors.

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The Request Claim interaction has been given a special new interface as well to make it more intuitive and accessible to players. Rather than having to search directly for the title that you wish to gain a claim on, you can use the new button in the religious view to get a list of potential Catholic rulers owning titles for which the Pope is willing to grant you a claim on. By clicking on any of them, you will be shown a second window showing the list of all titles owned by the target ruler and from there you can select the one that you are interested in.

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Finally, if you are Excommunicated, the Issue Declaration of Repentance decision has been revamped so that it is no longer simply a cash payment.

Much like when requesting a coronation, the Pope will now pick one out of several possible demands for the player to fulfill in exchange for the lifting of his excommunication. Requests can range from a show of contrition causing Prestige loss, to changing your realm laws, to give one of your sons to the Church.


Also, bonus Cardinal clothes, pre and post 1245:

Cardinals preview.jpg
 
I'd make it Veliky Volhv to make it an all Slavic name, though I'm not sure whether veliky is anachronistic or not. If anyone knows better do let me know.
Великий means Great and it's not something I, as a Russian speaker, would use for a head of something, as it in most cases doesn't have a connotation that it's the only greatest something, can be just one of great somethings. Верховный on the other hand means high(est) as in supreme, so that would be a more fitting choice.
 
好希望道教也可以改革啊,或者新增汉传佛教,把它和印度佛教区别开来,同时我反对把苯教的宗教领袖称为达赖喇叭

He means: I'd like Taoist to be also reformable, or adding a new "Chinese Buddhist" to distinguish it from Indian Buddhist.

What's more, he is against calling the head of Bönist Dalai Lama.

I'd like to reiterate these points. As much as I'd like to be able to establish the first Dalai Lama, this is not the way to do it.

Also, I've said it a million times but using "Taoism" as the catch-all for what a specific person from China or Eastern Tibet believes is just absurd. Of course, the main problem is the fact that religion has always been treated differently in China than the rest of the world--EU4 has a fantastic system that properly simulates the Imperial harmonization of religion underneath the will of the Emperor.

Of course, Taoism is just kinda phoned in and was probably the hugest disappointment of the JD dlc. Its sects aren't even freaking traits like the rest of the Eastern faiths--they're just modifiers. Not to mention the fact that it would have been much better to have a catch-all religion that has Taoism/Confucianism/Legalism/Buddhism as sects as opposed to just "Taoism".

@aweaster 我同意。这是CK2的问题。对历史准确性没兴趣。太糟糕了。就像我的中文。
 
Великий means Great and it's not something I, as a Russian speaker, would use for a head of something, as it in most cases doesn't have a connotation that it's the only greatest something, can be just one of great somethings. Верховный on the other hand means high(est) as in supreme, so that would be a more fitting choice.

Good point.
 
In the old flames came out of all orifices of the body. Mourh, ears, penis, ass. They chanded it to mouth only.
Ah. I hadn't thought the red underneath was fire because, well... I've only ever seen it come from the mouth.
 
Great changes, but...

If you're overhauling divorce, why not correct your terminology? These are really all annulments, which are completely different from divorces.
Likewise, the celibate trait should really be continent instead. Being married and celibate is a contradiction in terms.

Long-standing immersion breakers on both counts. That stuff mattered a lot in medieval times, it's not just pedantry.
 
Great changes, but...

If you're overhauling divorce, why not correct your terminology? These are really all annulments, which are completely different from divorces.
Likewise, the celibate trait should really be continent instead. Being married and celibate is a contradiction in terms.

Long-standing immersion breakers on both counts. That stuff mattered a lot in medieval times, it's not just pedantry.

I can't agree more about divorce being changed to annulment, but continent? I never even heard the term before today. I'm not disagreeing, but I'd like to see some indications of how they were used differently.
 
Also, I've said it a million times but using "Taoism" as the catch-all for what a specific person from China or Eastern Tibet believes is just absurd. Of course, the main problem is the fact that religion has always been treated differently in China than the rest of the world--EU4 has a fantastic system that properly simulates the Imperial harmonization of religion underneath the will of the Emperor.
It's interesting that in China the state government has always considered itself the ultimate arbiter of religion. Nowadays there is a serious conflict between the Chinese state controlled "Patriotic" Catholic church and the Vatican, which — ironically — prefers a separation of church and state (with the Vatican theocracy itself a notable exception).
 
Великий means Great and it's not something I, as a Russian speaker, would use for a head of something, as it in most cases doesn't have a connotation that it's the only greatest something, can be just one of great somethings. Верховный on the other hand means high(est) as in supreme, so that would be a more fitting choice.

Логично, только вот не могу припомнить, чтобы "верховный" где-то использовался в истории. Ощущение, что это современное слово у нас, верховный главнокомандующий-суд-власть-что угодно. А вот великие были князья, например, в значении больше-выше. Впрочем, оба лучше странного Чернобана.
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Good point, but I can't remember any use of "Verhovniy" during that period. I feel like it's modern and is used as "supreme" (commander-court-power-etc). We had velikiy knyaz though - "high prince" and other uses generally meaning "high" or "big". Anyway, both options are better than strange Chernoban.

"Zrec" (actually Zhrec, where zh = ж = G as in geras-grates-gift, based on etymology of the word) is even better maybe, because Volhv aka Znakhar (literraly "Knowledge-man") were more kind of witch-doctor/druid type. AFAIK, Slavic pagans never had established priesthood, but they had elements of it, and we can imagine Zhrec becoming common word after the reformation.
(wiki states that "В историографии принято называть волхвами всех языческих жрецов у восточных славян" - It's generally accepted in historiography to name all east slavic priests/sacrificers(?) - volhvs.

I try based on olter textes ;) We know about evolution of language, so modern terminology can be misleading.
"Zherca" is based on this, and literally mean a "the sacrificer". Etymology of "Volkhv" isn't until the end is clear (can be based on nordic volva, finnish velho or have own, slavic source).

Zherca - can you give any link on this kind of pronunciation? I can't find it anywhere.

Etymology of вълхвъ - comes from влъснѫти - speaking strange/unknown words or speaking unclear, mumble, also влъшьба - magic.
 
I also cannot find in internet, but based on pronunciation in wikidictionary this should be ʒɛrʦ̑a
Which article is that? The one on the modern Russian word gives pronounciation [ʐrʲet͡s], the one on the proto-slavic one on proto-slavic spells it žьrьcь (жьрьць) where, IIRC, ь was an ultra-short /i/ vowel.

У меня тут совершенно случайно завалялся словарь русского языка XI~XVII века. Вот, что он пишет:
Великий
1. Значительный по размерам, большой
2. Значительный по количеству, многочисленный
3. Значительный по силе, степени проявления
4. Выдающийся
5. Старший, главный по положению, знатный. (993): Володимеръ же великымъ мужемъ сътвори его [отрока] и отца его. Соф. I лет. [1], 122. И колько нашихъ великихъ людей до смерти побито, опричь мелкихъ людей. Польск. д. I, 76. 1492 г.
Также сущ. Великая - Игуменья, старшая в монастыре

Верховный
1. Верхний
2. Верховный, высший, глвный. И утѣшениемъ слова да крѣпле подвигъшегося и ти съподобяться вѣньца вьрховняаго зъвания. Ефр. Корм., 585. XII в. Тако въ ц~ркви нашей бываеть, праздникъ праздника прѣмѣняя къ намъ приходить: прѣди бо праздьновахомъ рожьство х~во, таче сърящу, таче въскрьсение, таче въшьствие на н~бо г~а нашего и~а х~а, а д~ньс въ само се съвьрьшение придохомъ въ вьрьховании праздникъ, въ то само врѣмя обѣта х~ва. Усп. сб., 456. XII-XII вв. А на тѣхъ на дворищахъ и на огородцахъ стоитъ церковь вѣрховных апостолъ Петра и Павла. Гр. Дв. I, 308. 1588 г.
3. Верховой, конный

Вроде как и то и другое слово может быть использовано в значении главный, но примеры к слову "великий" звучат как-то неубедительно. Великий муж и ещё один великий муж? Великие люди и мелкие? По мне так звучит, как будто в первом случае имеются в виду выдающиеся, а во втором - знатные.
Верховное звание и верховные апостолы звучат чуть более убедительно. Хотя, конечно, я не настоящий лингвист, просто маску словарь нашёл.
А ещё любопытен пример с Великой как существительным, означающим старшую в монастыре, уже интереснее. Возможно, тогда и глава славянской веры может называться просто Великим?

Short English version
So I happened to have a dictionary of Russian language of XI~XVII centuries. Both великий and верховный are stated to have one of their meaning as main/chief, but the examples given for that meaning for великий don't sound as convincing to me (seems like in one case the meaning 'great' would fit better and in the other example 'noble'). Then again, I'm no professional linguist, so maybe the authors of the dictionary know better.
Interestingly though there's a mention of великая (female form of великий) used as a noun meaning Mother Superior. Which opens an option to just use великий as a noun for the Slavic religious head.
 
I'm warming up to Zhrec as the Slavic religious head, though there is a very clear west and east divide when it comes to the meaning of the word.

Czech Wikipedia has an article on them, which presents them as a form of high priesthood, particularly among north-western Slavs. However, it unfortunately fails to cite any sources.

Polish Wikipedia has a very short article, but calls them an elite class that co-ruled with the prince. It also mentions how there was another class of priests called wołchwowie (volhvs) that did not have any political power. This one cites a 2004 book Religia Słowian by Andrzej Szyjewsky.

Slovenian article is essentially a translation of the Polish one.

The corresponding Russian wikipedia article talks about pagan priests in general. Same with the Ukrainian, Belarussian, and Bulgarian one.
 
@Hanako Seishin - "zherca" had first part (zher-) similar to polish "żer" and second part (-ca) is clasical -ʦ̑a. This can be readed in other method by other slavic groups, but I find firsttime "żerca" in polish sources with polish pronunciation therefore I wrote in this method.
 
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So I happened to have a dictionary of Russian language of XI~XVII centuries

Sounds convincing, still XI century is already after Christianity was adopted. I guess we need to dig deeper to find out if it was used before XI. Or just use either option offered here in comments, they are all good enough.
 
Also, bonus Cardinal clothes, pre and post 1245

Maybe it's a rather small thing, but will there be an event in 1245 for informing players of the change of Cardinal's clothing?
 
Nice changes..... :)
only a few things are little bit unpleasant....
1) the pope looks like "poor brother" of cardinals :D because clothing - he has plain and not so nice clothes/crown xD
2) it is very nice, that you remade Bohemia, but I think, it is not done the best how it could be....also some countries over Bohemia and on west from Boh. could be little bit more remade (Meissen and Thuringen, probably Schwabia too) ..then Hungary looks little bit neglected, when we compare it to its neighboors - very large provinces

but except that very nice DLC, probably one of the best... :) Good luck in next work!