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Truly hope this is a prelude to a war dlc expansion. Its not my favorite part of the series, the only way to influence battle tactics is via unit composition, which is lessened by virtue of vassal levies.

Also military organization no longer affects attrition or is that still part of it????
 
Well, maybe it will be an unpopular opinion around here, but I think we should have more control over tactics. There are some games, I won't name them since they are not made by Paradox, so there you can choose tactics for center, left flank and right flank separately, also you could choose plan B and C if your main tactics will fail. Military technologies should open new tactics just like in Hearts of Iron series but with option to choose them manually. Just saying.
 
Well, maybe it will be an unpopular opinion around here, but I think we should have more control over tactics. There are some games, I won't name them since they are not made by Paradox, so there you can choose tactics for center, left flank and right flank separately, also you could choose plan B and C if your main tactics will fail. Military technologies should open new tactics just like in Hearts of Iron series but with option to choose them manually. Just saying.

There are too many issues with tactics right now, the system is:
1: It is extremely complex, the number of tactics available in the system is extraordinary, and many of them have very specific trigger conditions.
2: It has an unrealistically dramatic effect on battle outcome, tactics affinity bonus is +100% during skirmish, +300% during melee, and any units unfavoured by the chosen tactics will not deal any damage, while the chosen unit will get as much as 400% bonus damage
3: Yet, it cannot be controlled by the player in realistic, intuitive, non-gimmicky ways
4: And the current system gives extremely unrealistic and unbalanced battle outcomes even in fairly common battle set ups. It's not just "The supposedly stronger army lost to RNG here", but "The supposedly stronger army is determined to lose against the weaker army in this case due to design of the system"
 
I'd say this totally upends my understanding of combat, but I've actually never understood combat that much beyond 'Bigger Armies Win', so my understanding remains roughly the same.

I can imagine this might be an exciting change for those who are a lot more into the number-crunching parts of the game.

Yeah, that wasn't quite the case.
If you did everything right it was possible to beat a army 4x your size with the previous system.
Sure as heck wasn't easy though.
And it kind of involved looking up tactics on the wikipedia on my part planning unit composition in order to get the right tactics etc.

For a basic intro look here:
https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Combat

As for the tactics go here:
https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Combat_tactics

I don't know if this stuff is still valid though...
 
There are too many issues with tactics right now, the system is:
1: It is extremely complex, the number of tactics available in the system is extraordinary, and many of them have very specific trigger conditions.
2: It has an unrealistically dramatic effect on battle outcome, tactics affinity bonus is +100% during skirmish, +300% during melee, and any units unfavoured by the chosen tactics will not deal any damage, while the chosen unit will get as much as 400% bonus damage
3: Yet, it cannot be controlled by the player in realistic, intuitive, non-gimmicky ways
4: And the current system gives extremely unrealistic and unbalanced battle outcomes even in fairly common battle set ups. It's not just "The supposedly stronger army lost to RNG here", but "The supposedly stronger army is determined to lose against the weaker army in this case due to design of the system"

Hum, while I see where you're coming from I actually *like* the current system.
I don't really want it simplified.
Rather it might help if it's more transparent.
So perhaps prior to battle have a window available where you can see likely tactics ingame instead of opening the wiki in the steam overlay browser or running a tactics simulator.
See the potential changes when changing the leader of the army or one of the flanks.
That kind of things.
But not outright numbers, just things like "Due to Sir Henry being wrothfull and not exactly a brilliant leader he is more likely to charge headless into battle at the cost of his men" rather then "Sir Henry is 15% more likely to pick Reckless Charge Tactic due to wroth, his martial being between 7 and 3 and heavy cavalery making up 10% of all melee units on this flank" if you get my meaning.
Also, integrating a combat and tactics simulator and a tutorial wouldn't hurt I think.

That said, having advanced systems like this that's *not* visible on the surface but hidden behind layers of complexity is actually one of the things that helps with immersion with CK2 and that is one of the reasons I'm not going to get Imperator Rome at launch.
I think it's an advantage when trying to make a game not gamey but actually feel like you're sort of in real life. Basically suspension of disbelief.

That aspect of the game is one that made me switch from EU4 to CK2 the moment I noticed the game.
 
Also, since troop percentages play such an important role in tactics, could we see them in game? Instead of having to calculate things ourselves.

Of course a complete in-game explanation would be fantastic. That's what always annoyed me most. Everything happens in the background and you don't know why
 
Well, maybe it will be an unpopular opinion around here, but I think we should have more control over tactics. There are some games, I won't name them since they are not made by Paradox, so there you can choose tactics for center, left flank and right flank separately, also you could choose plan B and C if your main tactics will fail. Military technologies should open new tactics just like in Hearts of Iron series but with option to choose them manually. Just saying.

Well, thing is, we're not really playing the battlefield commanders ourselves, but the king of the nation.
But sure, I wouldn't mind something like what you're suggesting when our own character is leading the army or one of the flanks for the respective army or flank where our traits might play a role in what tactics are chosen.
I don't think we should get a outright choice of tactics.
But perhaps a "stance" system, or something like "aggressive stance" leading to a small boost in likelyhood of tactics that require aggressive traits like wroth, cautious, defensive stance, mobility etc.
Focusing on a aspect of combat a bit more.
After all, tactics rarely if ever survives the encounter with an enemy and communication tended to break down quite often in battles back then or where at the very least delayed.
If our character was leading the army as a whole we could have some influence on all flanks but less influence pr flank.
If leading a particular flank we could have more influence there in return for no or reduced influence on other flanks.

Well, that's just an idea anyway...
 
Also, since troop percentages play such an important role in tactics, could we see them in game? Instead of having to calculate things ourselves.

Of course a complete in-game explanation would be fantastic. That's what always annoyed me most. Everything happens in the background and you don't know why

Hum, everything happening in the background is actually what I like about the system. :-/
But different preferences I guess.

That said, remember, we're not meant to be playing as the army leaders pr say, but rather kings, dukes or at least counts sending others out in charge of our armies.
 
It could be one of those pop out menus like the current battle menu where you have to click a bit to see the combat values. So normally you wouldn't see any details, but people who care can

I guess that's a fair enough approach.
And it would help preserve the immersion that I feel that the current system provides.
I'd still love a non-number based feedback without going into depth like that.
Basically something in character like I mentioned above.
(I wouldn't mind getting that for other interactions in the game too)
It could simply be our characters thoughts about others.
Heck, getting that information could even be locked behind a character trait.
Like "reader of men" or some such giving you a improved understanding of how others behave.
It could help lead to different specializations preferred for different tiers in a kingdom.
The king picking his generals wanting a good understanding of the impact of their traits and will also want to just in general make his vassals happy in order to get more troops from them.
While someone at a lower tier that don't have as many generals to pick between and might be doing the fighting himself will prefer martial, stewardship etc instead to defend his lands and build up his duchy.
 
The problem with the current system, in my opinion, is not that it's excessively complex, but that it's opaque and it makes it difficult to do very simple things.

For example - in most games based on medieval or classical warfare light cav beat archers which beat horse archers which beat light cav. However, in CKII it's backwards - light cav beat horse archers which beat achers which beat light cav. This is very counter-intuitive.

Then you have a lot of tactics that all basically do the same thing - including two identical versions of "Charge".

Finally, it's hard or impossible to do even simple Role-play operations, like massing all your pikes in the centre and your cavalry on the flanks. Levies haven't really improved since launch, they remain a grab-bag of all troops types that get more random (and therefore less effective) as you upgrade your holdings.
 
The problem with the current system, in my opinion, is not that it's excessively complex, but that it's opaque and it makes it difficult to do very simple things.

For example - in most games based on medieval or classical warfare light cav beat archers which beat horse archers which beat light cav. However, in CKII it's backwards - light cav beat horse archers which beat achers which beat light cav. This is very counter-intuitive.

Then you have a lot of tactics that all basically do the same thing - including two identical versions of "Charge".

Finally, it's hard or impossible to do even simple Role-play operations, like massing all your pikes in the centre and your cavalry on the flanks. Levies haven't really improved since launch, they remain a grab-bag of all troops types that get more random (and therefore less effective) as you upgrade your holdings.
And you need to upgrade your holdings, because the only thing that matters for sieges and controlling vassals is raw numbers.
 
And you need to upgrade your holdings, because the only thing that matters for sieges and controlling vassals is raw numbers.

Right, and I find it so hard to understand why the devs haven't just split levies into regiments of a single unit type. At the end of the day the majority of players do single-player games most of the time. If you want to ball all your levies up and throw them at the AI, fine, if you want to spend 30 minutes with the game paused whilst you tweak your stacks for optimal effectiveness... You should be able to do that!
 
Part of my problem with tactics is that they fire or not fire, depending solely on your army composition. When in real life, good commander is the one who can select good tactics against enemy composition. For example, if you have 300 knights, 300 heavy infantry and 300 pikemen, and enemy has 800 pikemen, then advance, stand fast and powerful charge are NOT all as good. Oposite, one of them is clearly better than others.
Net result of current approach is that every combat guide I found suggest to actually REDUCE number of available tactics, i.e. your army tactical flexibility.

Therefore I suggest system like that:
1. Bad tactics check. For every bad tactic available, you make percentual check. On fail, that bad tactic is added to your tactic rooster. Probability of selecting bad tactic should be quite low, like 80% - 10% for every Martial.
1a. If there is any bad tactic in rooster, goto tactic selection.
2. Good tactics check. You make one percentual check, modified by your Martial. On success, all available good and glorious tactics are added to rooster.
3. Available normal and cultural tactics are added to rooster. Tactics that change phase are excluded.
4. Available phase changing tactics are added (this one needs some work. long story short, army based on 1000 archers really don't want to charge at army based on 1000 knights).

5. Tactic selection. Now algorythm select which tactic in rooster is the best.
5a. Specifically, there are two 'players' (you and enemy), and they both have few options to select from. Every option of player A can be evaluated against evey option of player B, and vice versa.
5b. Which, incidentally, is a simple problem of game theory and AFAIK is trivially solvable.
(as a sidenote: solution can be in form of either: "take this tactics", or "take this tactics with x% probability, or take this tactic with y% probability)

In my opinion, my idea would lead to more natural experience
1. You actually want to have as much tactics available as possible, i.e. you want your army to be tactically flexible (the more tactics you have, the bigger chance of having something nice, while weak tactics, while still in rooster, will be basically ignored druing Tactic Selection.
2. Combined arms armies are stronger than single-type ones (f.e. unit of 400 heavy infantry and 400 pikemen will win against both 800 pikemen army, and 800 knights army, because it will have very strong tactics available against both of them, when opposite is not true)
3. Building high tier of stables will become good choice. For now (well, last time I checked at least), they give you small amount of knights, too small to do anything good when powerful charge fires, but big enough to make powerful charge available, i.e. reducing probability of getting tactics that are actually strong. (with new system, either powerful charge will not fire, as small number of soldiers getting boost will reduce its value during Tactic Selection, or it will fire for very good reason).
 
Hum, while I see where you're coming from I actually *like* the current system.
I don't really want it simplified.
Rather it might help if it's more transparent.
So perhaps prior to battle have a window available where you can see likely tactics ingame instead of opening the wiki in the steam overlay browser or running a tactics simulator.
See the potential changes when changing the leader of the army or one of the flanks.
That kind of things.
But not outright numbers, just things like "Due to Sir Henry being wrothfull and not exactly a brilliant leader he is more likely to charge headless into battle at the cost of his men" rather then "Sir Henry is 15% more likely to pick Reckless Charge Tactic due to wroth, his martial being between 7 and 3 and heavy cavalery making up 10% of all melee units on this flank" if you get my meaning.
Also, integrating a combat and tactics simulator and a tutorial wouldn't hurt I think.

That said, having advanced systems like this that's *not* visible on the surface but hidden behind layers of complexity is actually one of the things that helps with immersion with CK2 and that is one of the reasons I'm not going to get Imperator Rome at launch.
I think it's an advantage when trying to make a game not gamey but actually feel like you're sort of in real life. Basically suspension of disbelief.

That aspect of the game is one that made me switch from EU4 to CK2 the moment I noticed the game.

I have no issues with it being complex, but the current system of complexity without (non-gimmicky) control is rather silly.

It's like watching the computer throwing a 100 side dice, instead of the 9 side dice in EU.

And I agree there should at least be a "list" of tactics with some descriptions of them that can be easily be referred to in game.

Though the most damning issue with the tactics system is my fourth point, some parts of it are just broken and need complete rework.
It is optimised for single unit type formations with ridiculously powerful unit counters, that is not good for gameplay, balance nor realism.
Check my previous comment on this issue.

Of course, we only need to rework the stats for each tactic to remedy this issue, without having to change any of its underlying mechanics.
The mechanics is fairly nice, the phase system (especially "pursue") is a great inclusion compared to the combat mechanics of EU/VIC or even HOI, the transparency issue is not game-breaking, just QUI.
But the logic behind the stats of the tactics system is just broken

And the tactics system frequently gives unrealistic results, it heavily penalises any kind of mixture of different types of troops (which is unavoidable with levies, and also means levy buildings have less value than on paper)

I recall a test in 2014, in which 867 Bulgaria had 8000+ troops (mainly heavy infantry, light cavalry and some heavy cavalry) and the invading Magyars had 7000+ (mainly light infantry and some archers, as nomads were not implemented back then), fighting a battle with commanders of not too different skill levels on plains.

The result? 9/10 times the numerically and qualitatively superior Bulgarians lose, as the harass tactic triggered by presence of LC is hard countered by the volley tactic triggered by presence of archers.
That was neither good for gameplay nor historically realistic.

And picking a particular tactics often means only a particular type of units deals damage, while the rest just sit and watch...This indeed penalises any mixing of units, which does not seem to be realistic, nor is it balanced for gameplay (penalises the construction of military buildings that provide levies)
The affinity system is rather dramatic, a 100% bonus during skirmish and 300% bonus during melee over a system that cannot be non-gimmickly controlled is rather silly, I think the HOI/Imperator system of tactics countering is much more sensible.
Not to mention the affinity cycle in the skirmish phase seems to be backwards, there is no way for horse archers to be a counter for foot archers.
 
Part of my problem with tactics is that they fire or not fire, depending solely on your army composition.

2. Combined arms armies are stronger than single-type ones (f.e. unit of 400 heavy infantry and 400 pikemen will win against both 800 pikemen army, and 800 knights army, because it will have very strong tactics available against both of them, when opposite is not true)

3. Building high tier of stables will become good choice. For now (well, last time I checked at least), they give you small amount of knights, too small to do anything good when powerful charge fires, but big enough to make powerful charge available, i.e. reducing probability of getting tactics that are actually strong. (with new system, either powerful charge will not fire, as small number of soldiers getting boost will reduce its value during Tactic Selection, or it will fire for very good reason).

Yeah, considering that army composition is not easily changeable, the design that tactics depending almost entirely on army composition is rather silly.

2 is also a major issue, the current tactic system heavily penalises combined arms. I'm not sure if combined arms should be rewarded, but the penalisation is silly.

3 is related to 2, currently you want to minimise the number of types of units in your army as tactics generally rewards one or two unit types and penalises all others.
 
Hum, while I see where you're coming from I actually *like* the current system.
I don't really want it simplified.
Rather it might help if it's more transparent.
So perhaps prior to battle have a window available where you can see likely tactics ingame instead of opening the wiki in the steam overlay browser or running a tactics simulator.
See the potential changes when changing the leader of the army or one of the flanks.
That kind of things.
But not outright numbers, just things like "Due to Sir Henry being wrothfull and not exactly a brilliant leader he is more likely to charge headless into battle at the cost of his men" rather then "Sir Henry is 15% more likely to pick Reckless Charge Tactic due to wroth, his martial being between 7 and 3 and heavy cavalery making up 10% of all melee units on this flank" if you get my meaning.
Also, integrating a combat and tactics simulator and a tutorial wouldn't hurt I think.

That said, having advanced systems like this that's *not* visible on the surface but hidden behind layers of complexity is actually one of the things that helps with immersion with CK2 and that is one of the reasons I'm not going to get Imperator Rome at launch.
I think it's an advantage when trying to make a game not gamey but actually feel like you're sort of in real life. Basically suspension of disbelief.

That aspect of the game is one that made me switch from EU4 to CK2 the moment I noticed the game.

I agree 100%.

I hate when games simplify stuff because "nobody uses or knows how to use all of it", well instead let us use it. Removing stuff is always a step back in my opinion. Make tactics more clear and let us make conscious non-gamey decisions to influence them.

I honestly always admired amount of tactics in battle ck2 has, because those are levels of depths other games do not usually have, which makes ck2 so appealing to me, especially compared to brainless map painters like EU4. It's just that they are difficult to see in battle and difficult to use the ones you want. More transparency and tools to affect them is what we need to make them great again.
 
I agree 100%.
I hate when games simplify stuff because "nobody uses or knows how to use all of it", well instead let us use it. Removing stuff is always a step back in my opinion. Make tactics more clear and let us make conscious non-gamey decisions to influence them.

I honestly always admired amount of tactics in battle ck2 has, because those are levels of depths other games do not usually have, which makes ck2 so appealing to me, especially compared to brainless map painters like EU4. It's just that they are difficult to see in battle and difficult to use the ones you want. More transparency and tools to affect them is what we need to make them great again.
Agreed,I also really like the computer-simulation aspect of battles in CK2,you can't influence it.It's mainly rng and has a lot of opacity.It's why he is fun in my opinion.It's my favorite combat system from all Paradox games.
Cordially.