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CK2 Dev Diary #40: Visiting the Cartographer

Greetings everyone!

Today I’m here to talk about one of my favorite parts of our games (a very important one too) and something I’ve been working on. I’m going to talk about the map.

Looking at the work @Trin Tragula does for the map on EU4, I started thinking. Why don’t we do something similar to CK2? So I went looking at the map for various possible improvements. I have not added anything new in terms of provinces or areas. Instead, I wanted to focus on improving the existing map and give it some needed polish.

The CK2 map is not perfect, so there are a quite a few places to look at. But I wanted to start with the terrain and topology. As there several places on the map that, frankly, look out of place. As such, I swooped the map of the most hideous offenders. Several lakes and most major rivers are now much smoother, avoiding ugly and sharp edges. The Ural Mountains are now mostly impassable.

Below you can see a few examples.

Ural mountains:
ck2_ural_mountains.jpg


Lake Baikal, old and new:
ck2_baikal_old.png

ck2_baikal_new.png


The Ganges, old and new:
ck2_ganges_old.png

ck2_ganges_new.png



I also took this opportunity to make some smaller de jure adjustments (I know that not everyone will agree with me on these). These are done for gameplay reasons and considerations. The largest change will be for the kingdom of Cumania. Which I broke off slightly by giving the duchies of Itil and Sarkel to Khazaria, along with Crimea and Cherson (so Taurica no longer holds any de jure land).

A small shift in the kingdoms of the ERE. Greece is a very large kingdom, so I made it slightly smaller by moving Samos and Cibyrrhaeot to Anatolia, and in turn, made Anatolia stay close to the same size by making the duchies of Trebizond and Armeniacon de jure to the kingdom of Trebizond.

ck2_updated_de_jure.png



Last, and definitely not least. Let’s take a look at Hungary and the Danube. The first thing I did was to redraw parts of the Danube to make it more accurate (as we all know, the old Danube was not quite where it was supposed to be). It now flows much closer to its actual location. The counties along the river have been adjusted accordingly. Pecs, for example, is now located on the correct side of it. The rest of Hungary has also been adjusted so that the kingdom is placed within the Carpathians.

Instead of taking my word for it, you can see for yourself in the screenshot below, in which you can see the updated coast of Croatia as well.

ck2_danube_new.png


ck2_danube_old.png


Does this make the map perfect? No. But I do think it’s a step in the right direction and an improvement over the previous one.

Let me know what you think!

- The Ural mountains are now impassable
- Removed the duplicate island of Kolguyev, in the Barents Sea
- The most northern part of the Onega is now properly filled with water
- The mountains in southern Abyssinia no longer stretches onto the frame of the map
- Fixed an issue in the lower part of the river Don, where the river bed would go above water level
- Removed a bunch of trees that were placed in major rivers
- The terrain around lake Balkhash has been smoothed, to avoid sharp/rough edges
- The terrain around lake Baikal has also been smoothed, no longer will the steep cliffs surround the lake
- The Indus and the Ganges have both been cleaned up:
- The terrain now matches the actual river
- Smaller rivers no longer flow so far into the major rivers
- The borders of the rivers has been made smoother to avoid sharp/rough edges
- The Danube has been redrawn, to better represent its actual location (!)
- The county of Constantinople is now only located on the western side of the Bosphorus, merging the eastern side into the county of Nikaea, connected with a strait
- The duchies of Samos and Cibyrrhaeot are now de jure part of the kingdom of Anatolia, rather than Greece
- The duchies of Trebizond and Armeniacon is now de jure part of the kingdom of Trebizond, rather than Anatolia
- Removed the kingdom of Taurica
- The duchy of Crimea is now de jure kingdom of Khazaria
- The duchy of Cherson is now de jure kingdom of Khazaria
- The coastal counties of Croatia and Serbia have been adjusted and moved slightly to better represent their actual locations
- The eastern counties of Hungary and the surrounding area has been moved and adjusted in order to properly place the kingdom within the Carpathian mountains
- Changed the name of b_mirabel to "Majdal Yaba"
- b_mirabel will be named "Mirabel" if ruled by most European cultures
- b_mirabel will be named "Antipatris" if ruled by Byzantine cultures
- The county of Tobruk is now only located along the coast
- Moved the northern part of c_dalarna to c_herjedalen
- Moved k_venice to de jure e_italy
 
It only took you guys twelve years to finally look at the map!
Congratulations.
 
Any new Game Rules coming?
 
Ok then why the name Torki?
Because it means "place where people who call themselves Torks live", just like Ireland is the "Land of the Irish". This is something I've learned playing this game: a nation was defined more by who lived there and to whom they owed fealty than by lines drawn on a map.
 
Could you maybe look into poor benighted Persia? For example, Persepolis could be located in Esfahan, Fars, or another county (forget which), depending on whether you take the location of the holding in game, the location of the real life surrounding settlements, or the actual geographical location.
 
The northern and western border of Hungary is still a bit messed up, but hey, it's something and my eyes have stopped bleeding furiously, so I'd consider that progress, good job.
 
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Could you maybe look into poor benighted Persia? For example, Persepolis could be located in Esfahan, Fars, or another county (forget which), depending on whether you take the location of the holding in game, the location of the real life surrounding settlements, or the actual geographical location.
As I said to EldarPanic, you ought to make a thread in the Suggestions subforum, nicely laying your suggestion out. It also wouldn't get drowned under the rest of the posts on this thread.
People drew mountains and rivers on maps back then, too; it doesn't mean they were 110% accurate about the actual shape. Remember, these are the same people who insisted on Aristotelian gravity despite the fact anybody who ever skipped stones could refute it by observation.

Remember, CK2 is as much an RPG as it is a strategy game.
Yeah, that's why Western Europe is accurate, but when you get to Byzantium (i.e. one of the most civilised areas in this period) you get absolute gibberish.
 
looks like great changes to me!

Please release the new DLC soon (Does anybody even know if it should be 1 month, 3 months, what?). I'm expecting a sale and I want to finally buy Ck2 and most expansions. It's too expensive at full price though. Or perhaps there will be a paradox site sale before the release? :)
 
Great to see that these requested changes are making their way into the game.
 
The improvement of the river Danube is great!
Though, in Hungary there is still an annoying mistake with the provinces. While "Fejér" really exists, there is also an imaginary province named "Székesfehérvár" next to it. In the reality, Székesfehérvár is not a province. It is a city. Actually, it is the regional capital of the other (neighboring) province, Fejér...
 
The improvement of the river Danube is great!
Though, in Hungary there is still an annoying mistake with the provinces. While "Fejér" really exists, there is also an imaginary province named "Székesfehérvár" next to it. In the reality, Székesfehérvár is not a province. It is a city. Actually, it is the regional capital of the other (neighboring) province, Fejér...

While we are at it, Pest city should really be near the Danube. Otherwise, decent changes.
 
The easiest solution of this bug would be to rename the region "Székesfehérvár" to "Somogy" - which is the largest region of Hungary, is extremely important in this time, and it is at the given place - and is painfully missing from the map.
 
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Would it be possible to edit the placement of the provinces of Aquileia, Carniola and Carinthia? Their borders are very inaccurate - Carinthia is in totally the wrong place.
 
The CK2 map is not perfect, so there are a quite a few places to look at. But I wanted to start with the terrain and topology. As there several places on the map that, frankly, look out of place. As such, I swooped the map of the most hideous offenders. Several lakes and most major rivers are now much smoother, avoiding ugly and sharp edges. The Ural Mountains are now mostly impassable.
Yay! Maybee the hordes won't push into Finland quite as often now.

I also took this opportunity to make some smaller de jure adjustments (I know that not everyone will agree with me on these). These are done for gameplay reasons and considerations. The largest change will be for the kingdom of Cumania. Which I broke off slightly by giving the duchies of Itil and Sarkel to Khazaria, along with Crimea and Cherson (so Taurica no longer holds any de jure land).
Like someone else said move cherson to trebizond and I totally agree with this change. Also Khazaria, Alania and Gerogia should be moved to a diffrent empire title. I suggest a new empire e_caucasia. tartaria is simply too big and Georgia should not be dejure ERE. Also some of the duchies along the caspian sea coast could be made another kingdom. I moved duchies azerbaijan and derbent to a kingdom of azerbaijan and included this in e_caucasia too, but I have no idea how historical that is.

A small shift in the kingdoms of the ERE. Greece is a very large kingdom, so I made it slightly smaller by moving Samos and Cibyrrhaeot to Anatolia, and in turn, made Anatolia stay close to the same size by making the duchies of Trebizond and Armeniacon de jure to the kingdom of Trebizond.
Slim down the duchy of antioch to just be on the coast, move duchies of antioch and armenia minor to kingdom or armenia, rename kingdom or anatolia to kingdom of nikea, add nikea to it.

Last, and definitely not least. Let’s take a look at Hungary and the Danube. The first thing I did was to redraw parts of the Danube to make it more accurate (as we all know, the old Danube was not quite where it was supposed to be). It now flows much closer to its actual location. The counties along the river have been adjusted accordingly. Pecs, for example, is now located on the correct side of it. The rest of Hungary has also been adjusted so that the kingdom is placed within the Carpathians.

Instead of taking my word for it, you can see for yourself in the screenshot below, in which you can see the updated coast of Croatia as well.
Looks great but eventually you'll need to do a savebreaking fix of eastern europe. I understand most of this haven't changed (before now) from ck1?


Noooooo, my favorite kingdom is no more ;_;

Nice work though ;)
Well it's still titular isn't it just start drifting stuff into it.

Any and all changes to the ck2 map that provide at least some sort of accuracy are alright in my book. Hell, it now even almost looks like the Kingdom of Walachia could have reasonable borders. Now.....about Brandenburg...
What about Brandenburg? I have been trying to think up a fix for it for a while but I'm not really an expert on it. I know Altmark got to be part of it, but as long as it does it looks terrible.

Venice will be made de jure part of the empire of Italy?

I really like this. Ought to make it much likelier for at least one republic to survive until the endgame, which is nice.
I disagree, I as usually oppose the existance of a e_italy in any start date. It should all be ERE or HRE depending on the start date. And as for the conquering there is a much better fix, don't let emperors use the dejure of their empire title for dejure conquest wars. Honestly it makes the empires way to good at blobbing (now a player can obviously blob anyway).

Please, adjust the D'Niester too, it's innacurate.
I have the solution here:
1aof8f2.jpg
Love how you place it at the border too. I think rivers and privonce borders should coincide more often. In fact all in all the geographical reasons for province boundaries should be more apparent.

Is there a chance of moving d_Nikaea to Anatolia too? k_Anatolia looks kinda ugly now.
Like I said above, have anatolia lose some of it's eastern provinces to armenia, and then rename it to the kingdom of nikea.

CKII hasn't aged well, but if you manage to fix the clutter and blurriness of the map then I'm sure you can revive the interest of a lot of people.
It has aged better than EU4 has.

Yeah, I always disliked the fact that the ERE would go and conquer Venice so soon whenever you start a game. This should keep them protected from that at least.
They'll just go after some other part of their dejure then, and then the next and so on, what makes vencie so special? You either need to nerf the dejure of the byzantines massively or make empire tier titles unable to be used for dejure conquests. My suggestion is the latter since it does not include ahistorical empires.

I did consider moving it as well. But chose to not do so for now, mostly for historical reasons, though.
Like I said above, rename it kingdom of nikea instead and it's very historical for the duchy of nikea to be part of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_Nicaea (Yeah I know it was an emprie but so was suposedly trebizond too)

Hooray for more accurate geography. Any chance we will see another map projection technique used in the future?
I would love to see them project ck3 of curved surface and then just let us move the camera over it. (Meaning we get a projection centered around whatever is on the centre of our screen. And province distances get to become realistic.

Very happy to see this change. Being de jure ERE meant the ERE would conquer Venice virtually every game, which is really annoying. This should cut down ERE expansionism in that area considerably.
And now it will go after something else dejure that it never did. As long as the ERE has access to the dejure conquest CB from it's empire title it will keep blobbing (same thign for the HRE). Just like you can't press dejure claims of kingdom level vassals you should never be able to press the dejure claim of a empire title. They simply have to much dejure, and their vassals are strong enough to blob on their own right. In fact empire having to depend on vassals blobbig makes them less stable since vassals will become stronger while the emperor has a harder time to keep up.

An exception could be made actually empier tier can declare dejure wars on other emperors.

Could you fix the Rhine also? It stopping around Mainz looks very strange, especially when Danube goes all the way to Ulm.
Seconded. Love the large rivers, wish you'd find more uses for them beyond viking raiding too.

Since Finland, Sapmi and Perm are similar to each other in both culture(Finno-Ugric culture group) and religion(Suomenusko), why would they belong to different de jure empires?
a77244e736d12f2e81e4ccd947c2d562873568c0.jpg

I have ever added a new empire in my mod. The name was inpired by "Uralic languages".
The problem with adding sapmi and finland is that it makes the vikings have an even easier time to form scandinavia.

Will Venice still be required territory for restoring the Roman Empire? I think it will be much harder to acquire now.
Well seeing how you can restore the empire before the initial start date starting in any of the early starts I don't see the problem. Restoring the empire is already ridiculously easy.

Love most of these changes, I'm not too sure about this however:

- Moved k_venice to de jure e_italy

I understand the gameplay reasons, but it seems a cheap way out of what should be a gameplay fix. Honestly k_venice shouldn't just be de jure ERE in the early start dates but de facto. I can see it being k_italy for later starts though.
Well aside from the last part I agree. I think it sould awlays be dejure ere. It's simply part of that sphere, contesting over land in the ERE and so on. Reducing ERE blobbing in general should be the solution not cutting down on what's very much their dejure territory. Like I have suggested above making the dejure for emprie titles not viable for dejure claim wars is a very effective fix, I have used it for a long time. Removed italy completly k_italy is dejure ere in 769 dejure hre from there on, sicily and vencie is dejure ere in all starts. Along with removing the holy war CB prior to the start of the crusades renewed jihad events the game has gotten a lot less blobby.

Is Taurica completely gone or can it still be formed as a titular kingdom?
The latter, the former would mean breaking saves and they said this shouldn't.

Why don't you use some of the map changes from CK2+ mod?

Like extra provinces. I feel like some are missing in the game.
Because they can't that work belong to the ck2+ team, they can't just take it over.

That said I would love me some more provinces.
 
Nice changes, good to see Hungary finally looking like Hungary, but Wallachia is still a bit ugly. I'd also move Cherson into Trebizond from 1066 onwards. Maybe move Azov from Alania to Khazaria too because it makes more sense and Khazaria looks kinda weird right now.
 
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