• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

CK2 Dev Diary #40: Visiting the Cartographer

Greetings everyone!

Today I’m here to talk about one of my favorite parts of our games (a very important one too) and something I’ve been working on. I’m going to talk about the map.

Looking at the work @Trin Tragula does for the map on EU4, I started thinking. Why don’t we do something similar to CK2? So I went looking at the map for various possible improvements. I have not added anything new in terms of provinces or areas. Instead, I wanted to focus on improving the existing map and give it some needed polish.

The CK2 map is not perfect, so there are a quite a few places to look at. But I wanted to start with the terrain and topology. As there several places on the map that, frankly, look out of place. As such, I swooped the map of the most hideous offenders. Several lakes and most major rivers are now much smoother, avoiding ugly and sharp edges. The Ural Mountains are now mostly impassable.

Below you can see a few examples.

Ural mountains:
ck2_ural_mountains.jpg


Lake Baikal, old and new:
ck2_baikal_old.png

ck2_baikal_new.png


The Ganges, old and new:
ck2_ganges_old.png

ck2_ganges_new.png



I also took this opportunity to make some smaller de jure adjustments (I know that not everyone will agree with me on these). These are done for gameplay reasons and considerations. The largest change will be for the kingdom of Cumania. Which I broke off slightly by giving the duchies of Itil and Sarkel to Khazaria, along with Crimea and Cherson (so Taurica no longer holds any de jure land).

A small shift in the kingdoms of the ERE. Greece is a very large kingdom, so I made it slightly smaller by moving Samos and Cibyrrhaeot to Anatolia, and in turn, made Anatolia stay close to the same size by making the duchies of Trebizond and Armeniacon de jure to the kingdom of Trebizond.

ck2_updated_de_jure.png



Last, and definitely not least. Let’s take a look at Hungary and the Danube. The first thing I did was to redraw parts of the Danube to make it more accurate (as we all know, the old Danube was not quite where it was supposed to be). It now flows much closer to its actual location. The counties along the river have been adjusted accordingly. Pecs, for example, is now located on the correct side of it. The rest of Hungary has also been adjusted so that the kingdom is placed within the Carpathians.

Instead of taking my word for it, you can see for yourself in the screenshot below, in which you can see the updated coast of Croatia as well.

ck2_danube_new.png


ck2_danube_old.png


Does this make the map perfect? No. But I do think it’s a step in the right direction and an improvement over the previous one.

Let me know what you think!

- The Ural mountains are now impassable
- Removed the duplicate island of Kolguyev, in the Barents Sea
- The most northern part of the Onega is now properly filled with water
- The mountains in southern Abyssinia no longer stretches onto the frame of the map
- Fixed an issue in the lower part of the river Don, where the river bed would go above water level
- Removed a bunch of trees that were placed in major rivers
- The terrain around lake Balkhash has been smoothed, to avoid sharp/rough edges
- The terrain around lake Baikal has also been smoothed, no longer will the steep cliffs surround the lake
- The Indus and the Ganges have both been cleaned up:
- The terrain now matches the actual river
- Smaller rivers no longer flow so far into the major rivers
- The borders of the rivers has been made smoother to avoid sharp/rough edges
- The Danube has been redrawn, to better represent its actual location (!)
- The county of Constantinople is now only located on the western side of the Bosphorus, merging the eastern side into the county of Nikaea, connected with a strait
- The duchies of Samos and Cibyrrhaeot are now de jure part of the kingdom of Anatolia, rather than Greece
- The duchies of Trebizond and Armeniacon is now de jure part of the kingdom of Trebizond, rather than Anatolia
- Removed the kingdom of Taurica
- The duchy of Crimea is now de jure kingdom of Khazaria
- The duchy of Cherson is now de jure kingdom of Khazaria
- The coastal counties of Croatia and Serbia have been adjusted and moved slightly to better represent their actual locations
- The eastern counties of Hungary and the surrounding area has been moved and adjusted in order to properly place the kingdom within the Carpathian mountains
- Changed the name of b_mirabel to "Majdal Yaba"
- b_mirabel will be named "Mirabel" if ruled by most European cultures
- b_mirabel will be named "Antipatris" if ruled by Byzantine cultures
- The county of Tobruk is now only located along the coast
- Moved the northern part of c_dalarna to c_herjedalen
- Moved k_venice to de jure e_italy
 
My only map complain is, that on the de jure map, there should be the Empire of Prussia somewhere between Germania/HRE and Russia ;) (Better being anachronistic then entirely made up.)

This wouldn't even be anachronistic... There was never an Empire of Prussia.
And actually... I prefer entirely made up with a plausible base more than anachronistic ones which don't fit into the era at all...
 
I have a larely theoretical question. How hard would it break the engine, if we apply the game's map to a globe, instead of a rectangle?

Is that possible? Or would it break the game in new and interesting ways?

If we did that, then we could make the wold accurate. We'd no longer need to stretch the world map.
We could still restrict the camera, if necessary. Otherwise it could revolve freely around the world.
 
I have a larely theoretical question. How hard would it break the engine, if we apply the game's map to a globe, instead of a rectangle?

Is that possible? Or would it break the game in new and interesting ways?

If we did that, then we could make the wold accurate. We'd no longer need to stretch the world map.
We could still restrict the camera, if necessary. Otherwise it could revolve freely around the world.

It would be desirable to distort the game map anyway for gameplay considerations - reduce the relative size of seas, and 'wasteland' areas like the Sahara desert and some provinces eg Venice would be too small.
 
I have a larely theoretical question. How hard would it break the engine, if we apply the game's map to a globe, instead of a rectangle?

Is that possible? Or would it break the game in new and interesting ways?

If we did that, then we could make the wold accurate. We'd no longer need to stretch the world map.
We could still restrict the camera, if necessary. Otherwise it could revolve freely around the world.

Almost certainly very, very much.
 
My only map complain is, that on the de jure map, there should be the Empire of Prussia somewhere between Germania/HRE and Russia ;) (Better being anachronistic then entirely made up.)
Just make it a dynamic name for the wendish empire. I did that with the kingdom of Lithuania, it's called Kingdom of Pruthenia when held by a Prussian, Kingdom of Prussia when held by a German and some other I can't recall but all the cultures in the region who don't have a kingdom of their own in my mod have a dynamic name for the kingdom they do fall under.

I have a larely theoretical question. How hard would it break the engine, if we apply the game's map to a globe, instead of a rectangle?

Is that possible? Or would it break the game in new and interesting ways?

If we did that, then we could make the wold accurate. We'd no longer need to stretch the world map.
We could still restrict the camera, if necessary. Otherwise it could revolve freely around the world.
It would break Ck2, but it's definetely somethign they should consider for ck3. Also it would be a curved surface not a globe. And it would mostly solve the projection issues, you'd still get a projection error, but centered around the centre of your screen and based on your current zoom.

It would be desirable to distort the game map anyway for gameplay considerations - reduce the relative size of seas, and 'wasteland' areas like the Sahara desert and some provinces eg Venice would be too small.
Just scale up venice, that in no way affects projection since it has water around it. And as for wastleand jsut increase the scroll speed over them instead of makign them actually smaller. Messing with the projection messes with everything, if you tug it a bit in one place everything is distorted.

Almost certainly very, very much.
Almost certainly it would, or almost certainly it does?

I know its been almost a month since this dev diary, but did we ever get an explanation as to why de jure Taurica was removed?
Because it never existed, unlike Khazaria which did.
 
I have a larely theoretical question. How hard would it break the engine, if we apply the game's map to a globe, instead of a rectangle?

Is that possible? Or would it break the game in new and interesting ways?

If we did that, then we could make the wold accurate. We'd no longer need to stretch the world map.
We could still restrict the camera, if necessary. Otherwise it could revolve freely around the world.

How do you make a globe without the whole world?
1. You would have to add the whole world to CK2.
2. You would need to completelly redesign the map folder.
3. The question is... would it still work with a rectangular bmp to design the map?
4. If it doesn't work... you would destroy all mods out there in a VERY hard way because they would need to completelly redesign their maps...
5. Even if it works it would be a very hard rework for the modders because they would need to rework their map for a globe... Many maps are regionally limited. Like War of the Roses which is only Western and Central Europe... Would be hard to make this for a globe... which would force them to make the playable map smaller... or the whole map very very large to keep the playable map on the same size.
6. Do we really need a globe for a medieval game with only Eurasia in it?
7. Anyway... you would need to reorganize the whole map programming of the game... and anything which links to it. That would be an enormous work, especially for such a compley programmed game like CK2... I'm pretty sure it would take as much work as making a own game... and would cause a lot of trouble. You can't change the engine of an existing game that drastically.

Maybe for CK3... but in CK2 it's nearly impossible.
 
How do you make a globe without the whole world?
1. You would have to add the whole world to CK2.
2. You would need to completelly redesign the map folder.
3. The question is... would it still work with a rectangular bmp to design the map?
4. If it doesn't work... you would destroy all mods out there in a VERY hard way because they would need to completelly redesign their maps...
5. Even if it works it would be a very hard rework for the modders because they would need to rework their map for a globe... Many maps are regionally limited. Like War of the Roses which is only Western and Central Europe... Would be hard to make this for a globe... which would force them to make the playable map smaller... or the whole map very very large to keep the playable map on the same size.
6. Do we really need a globe for a medieval game with only Eurasia in it?
7. Anyway... you would need to reorganize the whole map programming of the game... and anything which links to it. That would be an enormous work, especially for such a compley programmed game like CK2... I'm pretty sure it would take as much work as making a own game... and would cause a lot of trouble. You can't change the engine of an existing game that drastically.

Maybe for CK3... but in CK2 it's nearly impossible.
1.No you wouldn't you just have curved surface with boundary conditions.
2.When they do ck3 I really hope they plan on doing that anyway, it's a bit odd that they didn't fully do it from ck1 to ck2.
3. No you'd face the projection problem in reverse trying to turn a flat surface into a spherical section.
4.Not to mention that it would make it much harder to make new mods since you'd have to find some other visual representation of the map. Still think it's worht it for ck3 though.
5. again curved surface and boundary conditions, section of a sphere not the entire thing.
6. Again no need for the entire thing, but yeah a curved surface would still be preferable. Eusasia is big and we're starting to see some really bad projection errors by now.
7. Indeed it would need a new generation of the game engine, but it's not like it hasn't been done before. Google earth does it, in a browser mind you.

Definitely for ck3, but for ck2 it is impossible.
 
We are not planning on moving on to globes instead of flat maps in our games anytime soon. It's an old idea that has been proposed considered and rejected several times. The exact reasons for rejecting I will leave to someone more in the know to explain.

TL;DR Don't expect google earth like PDS games anytime soon.
 
We are not planning on moving on to globes instead of flat maps in our games anytime soon. It's an old idea that has been proposed considered and rejected several times. The exact reasons for rejecting I will leave to someone more in the know to explain.

TL;DR Don't expect google earth like PDS games anytime soon.
A shame because your crappy projections are very much the biggest flaws in any of your games at the moment. Or well there are plenty but they often derive from things like that.
People colonizing in the wrong place in eu4 for an example is a direct effect of the projection being messed up.
 
We are not planning on moving on to globes instead of flat maps in our games anytime soon. It's an old idea that has been proposed considered and rejected several times. The exact reasons for rejecting I will leave to someone more in the know to explain.

TL;DR Don't expect google earth like PDS games anytime soon.
And that's fine!
 
We are not planning on moving on to globes instead of flat maps in our games anytime soon. It's an old idea that has been proposed considered and rejected several times. The exact reasons for rejecting I will leave to someone more in the know to explain.

TL;DR Don't expect google earth like PDS games anytime soon.
GLOBES?!

I'd hope not. I still haven't forgiven Paradox for dragging us away from the superior 2D maps.
 
Almost certainly it would, or almost certainly it does?

To have a proper globe projection would almost certainly necessitate a large number of changes in the code, and not easy changes either. Especially if you want a real sphereical projection, not just a cylinder wrapped on a sphere or something like that.
 
To have a proper globe projection would almost certainly necessitate a large number of changes in the code, and not easy changes either. Especially if you want a real sphereical projection, not just a cylinder wrapped on a sphere or something like that.
Yes so? I mean sure it can't be done with CK2, but it really should be the norm for later Paradox games.
 
Last, and definitely not least. Let’s take a look at Hungary and the Danube. The first thing I did was to redraw parts of the Danube to make it more accurate (as we all know, the old Danube was not quite where it was supposed to be). It now flows much closer to its actual location. The counties along the river have been adjusted accordingly. Pecs, for example, is now located on the correct side of it. The rest of Hungary has also been adjusted so that the kingdom is placed within the Carpathians.

Instead of taking my word for it, you can see for yourself in the screenshot below, in which you can see the updated coast of Croatia as well.

index.php

Nice touch. Hungary is at least recognizable. This could be hard job for a foreigner.
If I ever come back to CK2 it would be easier to mod my Balkan & Hungary again. I made a topic with an uploaded mod pack earlier. (Normal map didn't work for me so I still needed to play with that bizarre shape of river Duna.)
You might consider adding lake Balaton - it's quite a remarkable characteristic of the maps about the Carpathian basin.
Another funny stuff is Székesfehérvár province. Székesfehérvár is in reality the modern name of the main city of county Fejér. :D
You may pay attention the distance between the Duna and Tisza rivers. It should be broader, check some maps. The Tisza flows from the Carpathians and not from the plains. The same with river Olt and the river Maros should be more to the north.
This part of the map is hard because the original map put the Carpathian mountains too to the north.
Good work!
 
Last edited: