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CK2 Dev Diary #50: A Reason for War

Greetings!

The weather is slowly recovering from the chaotic mixture of snow/rain/hail/sun that has plagued the Swedish April and work is starting on the next, yet undisclosed, expansion! The next expansion is going to have a specific theme which most features will be focused around (we can unfortunately not go into any detail in this DD), though we also want to add some features that can be of use regardless of who or where you choose to play. One of these is planned to be a ‘Casus Belli Expansion’, where we want to add new and oft-requested CBs to the game. The Focus is going to be on CBs that enhance the early and late game (as well as a few more roleplay-focused CBs). While this is by no means a final list, it’s what we’ve made so far:


Forced Vassalization
This is a CB that can be used against neighboring realms to force them to become your vassal. To avoid making it too powerful it’s quite heavily limited, only realms that are of a lower tier, under 30 realm size and where the ruler is of either your culture group or religion are valid targets. It also has a direct cost (prestige). For example; this can allow England to, with time, extend ‘protection’ to the smaller Welsh and Irish realms.


De Jure Duchy Claim
This CB was added to try to avoid situations where massive realms would fight over one single county, essentially destroying their armies for near no gain. Players often think these types of wars aren’t worth fighting, and do not usually declare them themselves - instead they turn to Holy Wars or invite duchy claimants to expand in a more meaningful way. This CB provides interesting opportunity for conquest at the point where you form your first Kingdom or Empire. Any vassals present in conquered lands are preserved, and this CB also comes with a prestige cost.


Ducal County Conquest
At the very start of a game you might be stuck waiting for fabricated claims a very, very long time if you’re unlucky. This CB is available to Count and Duke tier characters, and allows you to go to war over any County that are part of a Duchy you hold land in, as long as the Duchy has no holder. The CB has a cost of prestige and gold, making it similar to a fabricated claim (as that’s essentially what it is). As an example, this gives count-tier characters in Ireland and the HRE an alternate way to claim a Duke-tier title, presuming that you can save up enough prestige and money.


Great Conquest
Unless you are playing as a Muslim, Nomad or Tribal-cultured ruler (who have access to invasions) you have no real way to expand in a meaningful way when you are playing as the ruler of a very large realm. While we still want expansion to be difficult, we also want to give players more static opportunities to expand. This CB is available to very powerful realms (at least 200 realm size) and can be used to claim an entire Kingdom from another character. Though the catch is that you have to fight someone that is as strong or stronger than you are, and using the CB itself costs a massive amount of prestige and piety.


Free Hostages
A long-requested CB, this allows you to go to war against a character in order to free any kidnapped concubines or wives, and release certain characters from prison (i.e. friends and dynastants). Rescued characters will, most often, be moved back to your court. It will also take hostages in turn, imprisoning a random close member of the target’s family!

It’s currently not possible to attack anyone who holds a close dynastic member in their prison (i.e. your child), is this something you’d like to see changed specifically for use with this CB? Otherwise it'll be of use primarily for freeing concubines (something that has been requested for a long time!).


Note that these CBs are by no means finished, and are currently being tested internally. Feel free to comment and feedback on them though, and also feel free to tell us what CBs you would like to see added!
 
On a more role playing tilt, I would like a personal retribution CB that allows you to declare war on a character that has murdered close family. If you win you get some gold and prestige plus the target is imprisoned. At the minute it sucks that people can do whatever they like to your family with little/no consequence.
 
Regarding kidnap claims:

I think the best method would be to make it possible to offer ransom always, as long as you have the money, even if the other side would refuse. Then if the other side does refuse, that's when you get this claim.

In that scenario, it should become possible to declare war on people who hold your close kin hostage. Then the defender has the option to release the prisoner to end the war. And, if that's possible to code, the most awesome thing would be if that when the prisoner dies during the war, the goal instead becomes to imprison their kidnapper.

My idea here is that war shouldn't be an alternative to ransom. But it should be a way to deal with people who refuse to ransom their captives. Meanwhile, there should be a real downside to killing your prisoners if they're the target of a war.
 
under 30 realm size

This CB is available to very powerful realms (at least 200 realm size)

I very much dislike those kind of limitations. I understand their purpose gameplay wise, but they don't make any sense otherwise and feel very much anti roleplay.
Wouldn't it be more sensible to tie those casus belli availabilities only to your rank or the amount of prestige you can muster to pay for the war declaration?
I feel the exact same for Norse prepared invasions, for which you never exactly know when or why you are eligible to them.
The reason why I play to CK2 instead of EU4 is the relative absence of arbitrary numbers sucking out the flavor and immersion.
 
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On a more role playing tilt, I would like a personal retribution CB that allows you to declare war on a character that has murdered close family. If you win you get some gold and prestige plus the target is imprisoned. At the minute it sucks that people can do whatever they like to your family with little/no consequence.

Plots need to be seriously fleshed out to make them a viable option for action that is less that all out war - not just, bribe enough people to get past 100% so the event fires.
 
Regarding kidnap claims:

I think the best method would be to make it possible to offer ransom always, as long as you have the money, even if the other side would refuse. Then if the other side does refuse, that's when you get this claim.

In that scenario, it should become possible to declare war on people who hold your close kin hostage. Then the defender has the option to release the prisoner to end the war. And, if that's possible to code, the most awesome thing would be if that when the prisoner dies during the war, the goal instead becomes to imprison their kidnapper.

My idea here is that war shouldn't be an alternative to ransom. But it should be a way to deal with people who refuse to ransom their captives. Meanwhile, there should be a real downside to killing your prisoners if they're the target of a war.

The captor should trigger the chain with a demand for ransom, and if the other party refuses then the captor should have the options of retaining the captive in prison or killing the captive, among other options that are culture specific, perhaps such as selling into slavery.
 
Prestige is mana now? If you made wars expensive and less desirable you wouldn't need mana-mechanics.

Free Hostages CB makes no sense. You do realise purpose of the hostages? In many cases hostages were the only thing maintaining the truce. If one would go to war for their release, their host would have no reason to keep them alive.

If in reality you were a medieval lord, and went to war to free a hostage (I'm sorry, but this is conceivable, even if you don't think it is), then the goal of that war is to liberate the hostage.

If that hostage is executed, then naturally it would become a war dedicated to revenge, where the goal is capturing the lord who executed them.

Which adds an interesting dynamic, but Paradox would need to represent this possibility. I.e. cruel or arbitrary rulers more likely to execute, and if this happens, the war CB changes from free hostage to take hostage (specifically, the lord who executed the prisoner). But it should indeed not start off with any intention of taking hostages.
 
Looks like a Warfare centric DLC. More battle RP events/traits please. I think a mapmode or something that tracks all the great battles of the world would be cool. Like epic once every 10-20 year throwdowns with massive numbers. Perhaps a way to commemorate those in game, showing who fought on what side, the leaders involved etc.. Maybe just for your own dynasty at least.

Anyways, looking forward to this one.
 
I'm definitely on the side of "let us declare war, but at a risk of having hostages executed".
It seems I don't see something important, because I don't think it is really possible to exchange hostages at all. (the only para-hostages being engaged characters). For me DD sounds like it would be 'liberate prisoners', not 'liberate hostages' wargoal.

One concern I have for that CB is if the target of the CB is killed by the defender. Will this end the war? To me, I think that that would be weird. "I was trying to free my stolen wife, but then you killed her so we're on good standing now!"
For me CB should automatically change to 'revenge'. Alternatively aggressor would get an event when he/she can either change cb to revenge, or stop war.
 
Free Hostages
A long-requested CB, this allows you to go to war against a character in order to free any kidnapped concubines or wives, and release certain characters from prison (i.e. friends and dynastants). Rescued characters will, most often, be moved back to your court. It will also take hostages in turn, imprisoning a random close member of the target’s family!

It’s currently not possible to attack anyone who holds a close dynastic member in their prison (i.e. your child), is this something you’d like to see changed specifically for use with this CB? Otherwise it'll be of use primarily for freeing concubines (something that has been requested for a long time!).

Note that these CBs are by no means finished, and are currently being tested internally. Feel free to comment and feedback on them though, and also feel free to tell us what CBs you would like to see added!

Yes, this is something I would like to see in my CB. If my son gets kidnapped by a viking and I have a big enough army then there's no reason why I wouldn't march in to rescue him. Rescuing close dynastic members should be allowed.

Also, I suggest adding an event where the person you rescue is grateful. If it's your spouse than you both fall in love, if it's your dynastat than you become friends.
 
I very much dislike those kind of limitations. I understand their purpose gameplay wise, but they don't make any sense otherwise and feel very much anti roleplay.
Wouldn't it be more sensible to tie those cassus belli availability only to your rank or the amount of prestige you can muster to pay for the war declaration?
I feel the exact same for Norse invasions, for which you never exactly know when or why you are eligible to them.
The reason why I play CK2 instead of EU4 is the relative absence of arbitrary numbers sucking out the flavor and immersion.
You truly speak words of wisdom, dear brother.

The powerful cbs can be also connected with prohibitive prestige cost. I would not mind paying ~500-1000 prestige for such a cb but making it cost 50% of your whole prestige would make it prohibitive enough. What is more, that would be a smile to both blobbers (who will save prestige and use possible exploits to war even harder than before) and rpg players who may find some mechanics base ground to play "tall" (CK2 is the best Pdx game to play tall, I believe), like the mentioned 50% cost or maybe an opinion penalty for each such a war? Would -10 domestic and -50 abroad be too harsh? In those circumstances I would rather be a swaggering duke than a bloodthirsty, heavily burdened emperor. Or would I?

I like the ideas for vengence cb or to stop plotters. They are much needed, I believe. Kidnapping every possible neighbouring ruler to read them poetry and tickle them really good sounds nice. Maybe I could allow myself to be tempted to pick some eyes out, so I would be the only two-eyed monarch in the neighbourhood.

Oh, btw, I came upon an idea for defensive pacts improvement. A middle-ground game rule which triggers the defensive pact's members participation in the war with small delay (like with the alliance call to war). That would make the wars similarly hard but would not cause the "I CANNOT MOVE" feeling. Personally, I would set this game rule as default.
 
Ducal County Conquest
At the very start of a game you might be stuck waiting for fabricated claims a very, very long time if you’re unlucky. This CB is available to Count and Duke tier characters, and allows you to go to war over any County that are part of a Duchy you hold land in, as long as the Duchy has no holder. The CB has a cost of prestige and gold, making it similar to a fabricated claim (as that’s essentially what it is). As an example, this gives count-tier characters in Ireland and the HRE an alternate way to claim a Duke-tier title, presuming that you can save up enough prestige and money.

I have mixed feelings about this one. It might make the early game too easy and cause a lot of internal wars.

It could be tied to an ambition or a plot, that would give you a strong duchy claim. That's the other thing - strong duchy claim should allow you to declare war for individual counties as well.
 
This makes me disappointed. It solidifies an anachronistic notion that wars were always huge mobilization of the entire realm. People disliked county and barony wars because they required a silly amount of mobilization. Rather then raising the rewards, you could have reduced the level of mobilization. You could have made it possible for limited wars that maybe the big kingdom wouldn't always win or consider worth the effort.

This is overall part of a long trend in CKII towards a realm that increasingly resembles an early modern nation state then a feudal kingdom. The characters matter less and less and the size of the demesne and the kingdom matters more and more. This is disappointing because it takes away from what makes CKII cool and distinctive in the first place: the character interactions.

I'm all for quality of life improvements and streamlining the game experience but some of the wrinkles that you are streamlining out are the flavor!
This got me interested in how such limits on a war could be properly constructed with CK2's mechanics. Perhaps using said CB could disallow raising any landed (non-mercenary) vassal troops, possibly excepting any (count?) vassals in the de jure duchy*. Hopefully, forcing the ruler to put their demesne troops on the line to take advantage, mercenaries notwithstanding.

*Maybe a diplomatic action could be required to call said vassals in, analogous to calling nomad khan vassals into a war, and that action could be to guarantee them possession of the duchy title and/or counties once the war were won, as if the vassal had claims that were being pressed.

I broadly agree with the above sentiment, though I'm not myself familiar with the historical details.
 
These new CBs sound great!

With respect to the hostages: as others have said, YES I want the ability to go to war to rescue close family or children but with the very possible risk that the hostages will be harmed if I do so, depending on the personality or political concerns of the ruler that holds the hostage.

In other words, possible but very risky.
 
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Are you guys planning/is it on the to do list to do something about the Pope relations with feudal lords?? As it stand right now the pope is only good for making him your vassal and requesting Crusades and cash, but by that time your already to powerful so it doesn't really matter. I really hope you guys do something with his relations. I can't tell you how many times I had an awesome guy with awesome traits with Zealous and the pope wouldn't grant me a claim on a guy who was deceitful and possessed Kingdom due to liking him more than me..Like wtf?! Lol
 
Interesting additions, though I have to admit I'm not sure I like the sound of ducal county conquest. It's already far too easy to go from Count to King as it is.
 
It’s currently not possible to attack anyone who holds a close dynastic member in their prison (i.e. your child), is this something you’d like to see changed specifically for use with this CB?

Do not remove this, pllllleeeeaassseee! I don't know how many players are smart enough to make use of this ability properly but this is an important tool when you're handling factions. A faction leader won't cut the crap at 30 opinion but he'll let you be the guardian of his children at 30 opinion and as long as you have his child he can't fire his faction against you allowing you to hold off a faction while you squeeze other faction members out or wait for your spymaster to get off his butt and do his job.
 
Greetings!

Free Hostages
A long-requested CB, this allows you to go to war against a character in order to free any kidnapped concubines or wives, and release certain characters from prison (i.e. friends and dynastants). Rescued characters will, most often, be moved back to your court. It will also take hostages in turn, imprisoning a random close member of the target’s family!

It’s currently not possible to attack anyone who holds a close dynastic member in their prison (i.e. your child), is this something you’d like to see changed specifically for use with this CB? Otherwise it'll be of use primarily for freeing concubines (something that has been requested for a long time!).

Yes, pretty please, let us go to war to try and free our close relative.
Yes, I understand that the one holding the prisoner could try and execute it at any time, thus making the CB invalid, but could we, in this case, keep the war going and if the one trying to free the now dead relative wins, he could take one extra prisoner? (Besides prestige and gold compensation from loser, of course)
 
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