• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

CK2 Dev Diary #50: A Reason for War

Greetings!

The weather is slowly recovering from the chaotic mixture of snow/rain/hail/sun that has plagued the Swedish April and work is starting on the next, yet undisclosed, expansion! The next expansion is going to have a specific theme which most features will be focused around (we can unfortunately not go into any detail in this DD), though we also want to add some features that can be of use regardless of who or where you choose to play. One of these is planned to be a ‘Casus Belli Expansion’, where we want to add new and oft-requested CBs to the game. The Focus is going to be on CBs that enhance the early and late game (as well as a few more roleplay-focused CBs). While this is by no means a final list, it’s what we’ve made so far:


Forced Vassalization
This is a CB that can be used against neighboring realms to force them to become your vassal. To avoid making it too powerful it’s quite heavily limited, only realms that are of a lower tier, under 30 realm size and where the ruler is of either your culture group or religion are valid targets. It also has a direct cost (prestige). For example; this can allow England to, with time, extend ‘protection’ to the smaller Welsh and Irish realms.


De Jure Duchy Claim
This CB was added to try to avoid situations where massive realms would fight over one single county, essentially destroying their armies for near no gain. Players often think these types of wars aren’t worth fighting, and do not usually declare them themselves - instead they turn to Holy Wars or invite duchy claimants to expand in a more meaningful way. This CB provides interesting opportunity for conquest at the point where you form your first Kingdom or Empire. Any vassals present in conquered lands are preserved, and this CB also comes with a prestige cost.


Ducal County Conquest
At the very start of a game you might be stuck waiting for fabricated claims a very, very long time if you’re unlucky. This CB is available to Count and Duke tier characters, and allows you to go to war over any County that are part of a Duchy you hold land in, as long as the Duchy has no holder. The CB has a cost of prestige and gold, making it similar to a fabricated claim (as that’s essentially what it is). As an example, this gives count-tier characters in Ireland and the HRE an alternate way to claim a Duke-tier title, presuming that you can save up enough prestige and money.


Great Conquest
Unless you are playing as a Muslim, Nomad or Tribal-cultured ruler (who have access to invasions) you have no real way to expand in a meaningful way when you are playing as the ruler of a very large realm. While we still want expansion to be difficult, we also want to give players more static opportunities to expand. This CB is available to very powerful realms (at least 200 realm size) and can be used to claim an entire Kingdom from another character. Though the catch is that you have to fight someone that is as strong or stronger than you are, and using the CB itself costs a massive amount of prestige and piety.


Free Hostages
A long-requested CB, this allows you to go to war against a character in order to free any kidnapped concubines or wives, and release certain characters from prison (i.e. friends and dynastants). Rescued characters will, most often, be moved back to your court. It will also take hostages in turn, imprisoning a random close member of the target’s family!

It’s currently not possible to attack anyone who holds a close dynastic member in their prison (i.e. your child), is this something you’d like to see changed specifically for use with this CB? Otherwise it'll be of use primarily for freeing concubines (something that has been requested for a long time!).


Note that these CBs are by no means finished, and are currently being tested internally. Feel free to comment and feedback on them though, and also feel free to tell us what CBs you would like to see added!
 
Some of those resources could be conserved, even if the entire process is stopped. They're just transferred to the vassals instead of the ruler.
I should have specified - of course the gold is transferred, but any prestige or piety you might have lost in the process due to quarreling, being discredited, extorting your subjects, etc would ultimately be lost if the process is brought to a halt.

I think such a chain of events could be a lot of fun, and it sounds like there's plenty of room for intrigue.
 
Last edited:
I should have specified - of course the gold is transferred, but any prestige or piety you might have lost in the process due to quarreling, being discredited, extorting your subjects, etc would ultimately be lost if the process is brought to a halt.

I think such a chain of events could be a lot of fun, and it sounds like there's plenty of room for intrigue.
It depends on the events. Vassals demanding important leadership positions in the war or demanding favors/minor titles would get the prestige associated with granting that favor. Prestige paid for extortion, like you said, would be lost.
 
I have some thoughts around the Great Conquest CB. Instead of turning prestige into a direct currency, the Great Conquest CB should be connected to a series of events. You don't use the CB directly right away, but prepare the war in advance like you would Prepare Invasion as Norse, for example. Then, you would have 2 years for example to rally support among your vassals and prepare how to integrate the kingdom into your pire. Since you need to fight someone at least as strong as you, and failure is very expensive for the entire realm, it's not given that your vassals will support you right away.

Instead of just saying "this CB costs 5000 prestige and 5000 gold because we said so", there could be events where you would lose prestige and gold as you try to convince your vassals to support you in the war. It's also excellent for the game's roleplaying component instead of this terribly inorganic mana system. To get a vassal's support, opinion is vital, recently having built a war chest or not being in debt would give you more support, and so on. Of course, the target or rivals could attempt to sabotage your political campaign, possibly even cancelling or completely interrupting the war preparations without giving you any refunds you've spent up until that point. I'm no historian myself, so I don't know how realistic this would be, but at least this it's more logical than using ruler mana
That sounds way more realistic to me than just pressing a button. Though I'm no historian either.

Your suggestion does remind me though of how a Danish king was murdered because the Franks were mad at him and about to invade. Can't remember his name though---thought it was Godfred, but wiki claims that he already was at war with Charlemagne when he was killed by a bodyguard (his successor made peace ASAP). Might also have been a king who was threatened by the HRE.

The point is that I don't see your suggestion as too different from those instances. You could then also have some CB against specific rulers you don't like---like with how the Franks/Germans were about to invade us before that king, whose name I've forgotten, was murdered and the invasion then blown off.
 
That sounds way more realistic to me than just pressing a button. Though I'm no historian either.

Your suggestion does remind me though of how a Danish king was murdered because the Franks were mad at him and about to invade. Can't remember his name though---thought it was Godfred, but wiki claims that he already was at war with Charlemagne when he was killed by a bodyguard (his successor made peace ASAP). Might also have been a king who was threatened by the HRE.

The point is that I don't see your suggestion as too different from those instances. You could then also have some CB against specific rulers you don't like---like with how the Franks/Germans were about to invade us before that king, whose name I've forgotten, was murdered and the invasion then blown off.
I made a more comprehensive post here, suggestions and input are appreciated

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/revamped-great-conquest-cb.1023970/
 
Prestige is mana now? If you made wars expensive and less desirable you wouldn't need mana-mechanics.

Free Hostages CB makes no sense. You do realise purpose of the hostages? In many cases hostages were the only thing maintaining the truce. If one would go to war for their release, their host would have no reason to keep them alive.
There should be an event that fires after your opponent decides to kill the hostages, where you have the option between calling off the war or turning it into a war of revenge.
 
The free hostages CB should be fought with your levies only and without calling vassals and should be an army fight only. You can only siege the hold where the hostage is because it's the only objective of the war. You could also free your liege's to increase your relation or get a favor.
A good idea wild be a Revenge CB where you avenge the death of a parent
Also consider a hostage exchange. This could be used to free any hostage, even if not your relatives, but to send them to their families, increasing relations.
 
The free hostages CB should be fought with your levies only and without calling vassals and should be an army fight only. You can only siege the hold where the hostage is because it's the only objective of the war. You could also free your liege's to increase your relation or get a favor.
A good idea wild be a Revenge CB where you avenge the death of a parent
Also consider a hostage exchange. This could be used to free any hostage, even if not your relatives, but to send them to their families, increasing relations.

I really fail to see why this should be the case. A strong ruler should most certainly get his vassals into the war in order to protect the kin of the ruler. There was, to my knowledge, no or Little differentiation between private and public in the Medieval ages when it comes to the ruling classes in most of the World, and I doubt that they would feel bound to only attack holdings with the hostage. Its not like people in the Middle Ages practiced any great set of restrains when it came to their targets in most wars. Given how this seems to not be used to expand realms I don't see how it would be historical or game balancing to implement such restrictions for the "free hostage" CB.

The idea of a hostage exchange is something which I would think could be a good addition.
 
Its not like people in the Middle Ages practiced any great set of restrains when it came to their targets in most wars.
With the exception of tribals, there was strict legalese about keeping hostages. Especially if they were captured in a war. Hostageship was a contract that was agreed to and validated by both parties: the hostage stays safe, as long as their kin do not attack. If their kin attacks, the hostage-keeper is legally obligated to execute the hostage.

I don't remember who, but historically there were several cases where a young child had been taken as a hostage. And the ruler who was holding them grew fond of them, and raised them like a foster child. But then the hostage contract was broken, and they had no choice but to execute the hostage.

The whole point to taking hostages (instead of executing them on capture) is to stop their kin from attacking you. Making it into a casus belli is completely ass-backwards.

However, if a hostage dies, that should be a valid casus belli.
 
Last edited:
With the exception of tribals, there was strict legalese about keeping hostages. Especially if they were captured in a war. Hostageship was a contract that was agreed to and validated by both parties: the hostage stays safe, as long as their kin do not attack. If their kin attacks, the hostage-keeper is legally obligated to execute the hostage.

I don't remember who, but historically there were several cases where a young child had been taken as a hostage. And the ruler who was holding them grew fond of them, and raised them like a foster child. But then the hostage contract was broken, and they had no choice but to execute the hostage.

The whole point to taking hostages (instead of executing them on capture) is to stop their kin from attacking you. Making it into a casus belli is completely ass-backwards.

However, if a hostage dies, that should be a valid casus belli.

Exactly, not to mention that as rulers they had a moral duty to act to do the best for the realm. And that is not to go to war to save some woman or some family member.

They are probably going to include this as a casus belli, but I think there should be a harsh penalty to vassal opinion and a hefty penalty to prestige, and a risk of the hostage being harmed and killed.
 
Greetings!

The weather is slowly recovering from the chaotic mixture of snow/rain/hail/sun that has plagued the Swedish April and work is starting on the next, yet undisclosed, expansion! The next expansion is going to have a specific theme which most features will be focused around (we can unfortunately not go into any detail in this DD), though we also want to add some features that can be of use regardless of who or where you choose to play. One of these is planned to be a ‘Casus Belli Expansion’, where we want to add new and oft-requested CBs to the game. The Focus is going to be on CBs that enhance the early and late game (as well as a few more roleplay-focused CBs). While this is by no means a final list, it’s what we’ve made so far:


Forced Vassalization
This is a CB that can be used against neighboring realms to force them to become your vassal. To avoid making it too powerful it’s quite heavily limited, only realms that are of a lower tier, under 30 realm size and where the ruler is of either your culture group or religion are valid targets. It also has a direct cost (prestige). For example; this can allow England to, with time, extend ‘protection’ to the smaller Welsh and Irish realms.


De Jure Duchy Claim
This CB was added to try to avoid situations where massive realms would fight over one single county, essentially destroying their armies for near no gain. Players often think these types of wars aren’t worth fighting, and do not usually declare them themselves - instead they turn to Holy Wars or invite duchy claimants to expand in a more meaningful way. This CB provides interesting opportunity for conquest at the point where you form your first Kingdom or Empire. Any vassals present in conquered lands are preserved, and this CB also comes with a prestige cost.


Ducal County Conquest
At the very start of a game you might be stuck waiting for fabricated claims a very, very long time if you’re unlucky. This CB is available to Count and Duke tier characters, and allows you to go to war over any County that are part of a Duchy you hold land in, as long as the Duchy has no holder. The CB has a cost of prestige and gold, making it similar to a fabricated claim (as that’s essentially what it is). As an example, this gives count-tier characters in Ireland and the HRE an alternate way to claim a Duke-tier title, presuming that you can save up enough prestige and money.


Great Conquest
Unless you are playing as a Muslim, Nomad or Tribal-cultured ruler (who have access to invasions) you have no real way to expand in a meaningful way when you are playing as the ruler of a very large realm. While we still want expansion to be difficult, we also want to give players more static opportunities to expand. This CB is available to very powerful realms (at least 200 realm size) and can be used to claim an entire Kingdom from another character. Though the catch is that you have to fight someone that is as strong or stronger than you are, and using the CB itself costs a massive amount of prestige and piety.


Free Hostages
A long-requested CB, this allows you to go to war against a character in order to free any kidnapped concubines or wives, and release certain characters from prison (i.e. friends and dynastants). Rescued characters will, most often, be moved back to your court. It will also take hostages in turn, imprisoning a random close member of the target’s family!

It’s currently not possible to attack anyone who holds a close dynastic member in their prison (i.e. your child), is this something you’d like to see changed specifically for use with this CB? Otherwise it'll be of use primarily for freeing concubines (something that has been requested for a long time!).


Note that these CBs are by no means finished, and are currently being tested internally. Feel free to comment and feedback on them though, and also feel free to tell us what CBs you would like to see added!

Sorry if this point has already been mentioned, but the free hostages CB only makes sense if you can ask politely first. Right now there is lot of limitations on when the "ransom prisoner" diplomatic option is available. For example you cannot ask someone to free your brother if his liege was not you.

Speaking of family based CBs, I think it would a nice addition to allow characters to join any wars a close kin is fighting regardless of any other considerations (maybe it needs a bit more refinement, but the main idea is good I think ).
 
Hmm I prefer to replace a CB that lets you go to war to free hostages. Instead Freeing a hostage could be a special decision. Whether or not the rescue attempt succeeds, you could then go to war.

Still not sold on the 'quid pro quo' when you not only succeed at rescuing your relative, but also take your opponent's family member hostage. I think it should be a separate action with its own cost and risk.
 
Free Hostages CB makes no sense. You do realise purpose of the hostages? In many cases hostages were the only thing maintaining the truce. If one would go to war for their release, their host would have no reason to keep them alive.
Yeah this, if I get DOW on for this stupid reason I'm just going to execute them
 
i think you should use CB to free "any" hostage you want, especialy if it your close relative. if i have to chose between liberating my own belowed son/daughter or concubine (which if needed i can make from random courtier), situation is clear.
but situation is interesing if i have idiotic son i hate, but my wife want to librate (just idea for event), so i will love that after sucesfully rescue him, he wull have fatal "acident" during road to safety, or during rescue attempt (caused by my loayal soldier).
 
I think it would be great if the attempted rescue of hostages could be used as a soft deterrent rather than I can or cannot perform this action. In essence waging a rescue war becomes a measure of risk.

Logic could go something like this.

1. I start a war to rescue hostage/s (bonus points if family members close to the hostage, may be in or against the attempted rescue depending on their "type")
2. Oponent (AI in most cases) decides whether to use the hostage as a deterrent. Factors that affect this decision could involve perceived value of the hostage/s (in terms of trait & relationship to attacker).
3. If defender wishes to try and stop the war they can sue for peace. New options can include offering to:
a. release a hostage
b. not harm a hostage
c. not kill a hostage
4.The options offered by the defender can revolve around, personality traits, perceived value of hostage, and perception of whether the attacker may accept. (i.e. a crazy/sadistic defender may choose to send a threat knowing that it will be denied as a justifiable excuse to maim some prisoners).
5. Attacker chooses to either accept the threat or ignore it and press onwards with the attack. (Ai logic may again be reflected in character traits, and also whether the defender character (not player) is known to actually go thru with threats. (i.e. a known coward may not proceed with the threat, whereas an experienced war veteran might have no qualms about one more death on their hands)
6. If the Attacker accepts the threat, the war ends with a white peace (or in some circumstances if the defending nation is big enough, or the ruler crazy enough, they may even ask for reparations for the "inconvenience"/prevent further incursions
7. If the attacker does not accept the threat, the defender may or may not go thru with the threat, incurring lesser penalties amongst fellow countrymen due to the incoming threat
8. If the hostage is killed/maimed the following things can happen to reflect the outcome of the risk taken. -
a. some characters may rally behind the attacker to "take justice"
b. other characters may gain huge negative opinion points towards the attacker, for being impetuous and reckless (not fit to lead).
The greater the value of the character (i.e. your only heir, or extremely popular and beloved royal consort/sibling will have a greater concubine than a concubine or lover, or a hated sibling or consort), the greater the opinion split.
In some cases it could lead to a nation rupturing
9. A successful rescue on the other hand can lead to major opinion points accross the board.

This could add a little more grey to the system, and make going to war to relieve hostage a risk/reward situation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.