CK2 Dev Diary #52: Rhythm is a Lancer

[Hyle]

Would it be possible to add a game rule to allow switching sides during wars (particularly internal ones)? It was a fantastic feature back in the early game, as you could see a rebellion gaining strength and swap sides, or try and get out before the monarch destroyed you entirely. Add in the possibility to win allies by favours, and it would make wars much more fluid (and historical- there's no way to really replicate Miles of Gloucester switching sides halfway through the Anarchy, for example).

 

[Aotrs Commander]

Surely the unpredictability is a penalty in itself?

I think the theory would be that it is a penalty, but it the unpredictability is not a GOOD penalty.

 

[Rashie]

Does this game actually need no cb wars? The game already has plenty of ways to start a war and get claims, and ck2 is not about hyperblobbing in the same vein as eu4 either.

 

[majorlupa]

A Siege Events Game Rule? Doable...

Thanks, means a lot. At this moment I can simply remove commander of the siege and I will lose no army, compared to huge losses I can take sieging tiny forts.

 

[Fishman786]

I think the theory would be that it is a penalty, but it the unpredictability is not a GOOD penalty.

I think it's a much better penalty than a boring prestige hit. Claim fabrication is very powerful but comes with distinct strategic disadvantages, there's a real choice to be made there. With a prestige hit you just wait until the prestige counter ticks up and then strike. It's not as if you're normally very short on prestige, it's a resource that tends to pile up before being spent all at once.

 

[RhaegarTelcontarTargaryen]

Can I make a suggestion about sieges, to be more precise about the events that kill of troops. One thing, in general, not just about siege, that pisses me of are the events with one single outcome. The other thing is, if I have an army of 15 000, bandits attacking it would have to be very numerous and bold indeed to kill of 5%, or even 1% of that troop number... or an organiser leading the army, would probably have siegeing forces arranged in a neat fashion.. my idea is to have either a siege that will go on quicker, but with a possibility of such events, or to have a slower siege, but well organised, with 'patrols' and orderly camp which enables no bandits or sudden diseases. Furthermore, it could be improved by having no bandits at all if number of troops is higher than a certain number, but it could increase the possibility of a disease, since it's easier to have epidemic in a camp of 20 000, than in a camp of 1 000 people. organiser leader skill could also reduce the chance of a disease or bandit attack...

 

[Loc_n_lol]

Ideally, I’d also like to replace the “Fabricate Claim” job with something else (maybe something to do with foreign embassies and arranging marriages, or something to do with Laws. Suggestions are welcome!) However, we might decide leave it there as it is (it does still have some uses.)

Interesting. If I could make a suggestion : in my game I've modded that job so that it takes a shorter amount of time and always targets the highest tier of title applicable, but it cannot fabricate claims out of thin air, instead it only turns existing weak claims into strong claims, allowing you to press them without having to wait for the stars to align.

I've also modded in events to spread claims more liberally around the family tree on the death of a ruler/claimant and removed the conditions for vassalisation when pressing other people's claims, so overall it's much easier to declare war on whoever you want, but you require a valid reason, even if it's only a thinly veiled excuse.


Also, when it comes to unifying a title that does not yet exist, such as Ireland, maybe the "become king" ambition could give you a CB to start a county conquest on any title in that dejure kingdom ?

 

[Heiliges Thüringens Reich]

Don't remove Fabricating Claims! Or at least give us a new tool to claim duchies/kingdoms (this one with the ambition)

 

[Rip Off Productions]

Don't remove Fabricating Claims! Or at least give us a new tool to claim duchies/kingdoms (this one with the ambition)

I don't think they're remove claim fabrication yet, but are giving an alternative CB so you don't have to wait several years for RNG to give you one.

 

[Orctavius]

First off, we’re going to deemphasize the “Fabricate Claim” job by giving all playable entities (including Christians) a form of “Unjustified War” Casus Belli that will allow you to seize a single County for an upfront cost of Piety, Prestige or Gold (depending on your Religion and Government Form.) Ideally, I’d also like to replace the “Fabricate Claim” job with something else (maybe something to do with foreign embassies and arranging marriages, or something to do with Laws. Suggestions are welcome!) However, we might decide leave it there as it is (it does still have some uses.)

I really dislike this idea. Relative stability is one of the defining features of playing in a Christian realm. Restricted warfare isn't a drawback. It's a feature that makes the playing Christians interesting. Allowing unjustified wars will fundamentally change the flavor of the game, and not for the better.

 

[Heiliges Thüringens Reich]

I don't think they're remove claim fabrication yet, but are giving an alternative CB so you don't have to wait several years for RNG to give you one.

But the new cb is just county-worthy. Fabricating Claims can give you duchy-worthy claims (if he's good enough) or king-worthy claims (if he's good enough and you have the ambition 'Become King of X')

 

[Carmichael]

More freedom is better I think personnally.
People always could declare war, the problem is the backlash against that. If you declare war without justification, people will react to keep the status quo.
I like the score cost, but I think this new unjustified casus belli should also affect the opinion of nearby rulers at least, if not the clergy. After all, declaring with no justification would mean that anybody could be under threat of conquest, and so the fact of using it should have some backlash with those under threat.

 

[loup99]

I'm not opposed to the existence of a new unjustified war CB, but I think it should be a bit like an attack without CB in EU4, destabilising the realm significantly with additional penalties that are similar to truce-breaking.

 

[Asiak]

First off, we’re going to deemphasize the “Fabricate Claim” job by giving all playable entities (including Christians) a form of “Unjustified War” Casus Belli that will allow you to seize a single County for an upfront cost of Piety, Prestige or Gold (depending on your
Religion and Government Form.)

So at last the unjustified war comes to CK2. I don't disagree with it but I do worry what its effect will be, and how the engine will run with it. I feel like the medieval period is chaotic enough to where it will fit in. I just worry that the engine will take this and run with it over and over again, it is going to have to be carefully AI weighted I think.

Ideally, I’d also like to replace the “Fabricate Claim” job with something else (maybe something to do with foreign embassies and arranging marriages, or something to do with Laws. Suggestions are welcome!) However, we might decide leave it there as it is (it does still have some uses.)

This I disagree with.

I think that criticism towards the “Fabricate Claim” job is valid, it could be better but only to a point.

I really don't think it should be replaced wholesale because it does serve its purpose certain places.

And as to why it should be modified / replaced the purpose of that I would also question. It shouldn't become the primary method of advancement or war in this game, it should not be as heavily relied on as in EU4.

To me one of the beauties of this game is that you have to make your own war. That advancement is really a mixture of de-jure wars, holy wars, fabricating a claim or two, and trying to line up the cards and advance through marriage or by getting claims bred in.

To me the fabricate claim serves very good purposes. In the beginning of the game every single small count can save up for and fabricate a claim on other counties in his or de-jure duchy to form the first steps to advancing up the latter in both rank and lands.

At the ducal or king level it provides easy advancement sometimes.

And at the emperor level it is actually a matter of utility that sometimes if a player wants to avoid using another CB or doesn't have one on a single county that the player might want or need.

Honestly I find the current ability to be kind of essential sometimes.

I could not see how embassies would work in this game though it sounds interesting.

As for involving arrange marriages maaaaaaybe. But in the beginning of some earlier start dates that would not be useable as there are no females.

Honestly this makes me just want a dowry system of some kind matched with a negotiation of some sort. Maybe a girl would bring a single barony or two or even a county or a duchy in a larger empire.

Next, we’re adding a Game Rule for Siege Assaults. The options are “Unlimited”, which works like before, “On”, which disables Assaults against Holdings at Fort Level 6 or above, and “Off”, which disables Assaults entirely. We’re currently playing around with these changes, so the exact rules for the “On” setting might change. On a related note, the time it takes to siege down Holdings is also being tweaked, to make it quicker overall but also making the Fort Level matter more.

I really didn't think that assaults were OP, I would describe them first as potentially risky per certain numbers.

While changing them I would simply say to keep in mind how much the AI does use them for better or worse. Sometimes they use them wisely with good numbers when they should (often as hordes). And sometimes they use them less wisely and that both of these instances add to emergent storylines because I have been saved by larger foes assaulting when they shouldn't.

The AI does assault so this will have butterfly effects far and wide.

 

[iron0037]

AFAIK the whole point of fort holdings is to NOT build them in provinces you already control.

Well then forbid the action so that the intention is clear.

 

[Zylathas]

What about the following new option for Chancellors:

Fabrication: Allows you to fabricate various documents. Claims if outside of your empire, inside your empire either a claim on the corresponding province or various religious documents. These would allow you to appoint a bishop once, or get a free divorce. If you get caught doing this you will get excommunicated or have a similar penalty for other religions.

 

[keytium]

I'm not opposed to the existence of a new unjustified war CB, but I think it should be a bit like an attack without CB in EU4, destabilising the realm significantly with additional penalties that are similar to truce-breaking.

I very much agree with this idea. A small tyranny hit for example would destablize the realm without making unjustified wars prohibitively expensive. Prestige penalty just aren't meaningful in most situations.

If the realm you are attacking with this new CB is the same religion then it might be reasonable to give them a bonus with their vassals similar to the defending against infidels bonus. This would represent the way that the attack is not seen as a legitimate use of force.

 

[Tavior]

What about the following new option for Chancellors:

Fabrication: Allows you to fabricate various documents. Claims if outside of your empire, inside your empire either a claim on the corresponding province or various religious documents. These would allow you to appoint a bishop once, or get a free divorce. If you get caught doing this you will get excommunicated or have a similar penalty for other religions.

I don't think this will solve the original problem of waiting "forever" for fabricate job to complete. You are only adding more thing to wait forever instead of solving the waiting part.

 

[Tazzoz21]

Just off the cuff, my first thoughts:

• Please do not remove the Fabricate Claim-option... or at least give us a game-rule option (On, off, etc). The unpredictability is what gives it, IMHO, spice.
• More CB's are welcome, but I don't know about the Unjustified one... Especially how the AI will handle that. I'd say there should be severe penalties for using this particular CB. OTOH, if you keep it limited to county-level, then it would be reasonably minor in the larger state of gaming.
• OTOOH, if you allow D, K or even E-level Unjust Wars... I must admit, my finger would be itching, but for the sake of fairness, the penalties for using must scale accordingly. You could have a field day coming up with penalties, besides the obligatory prestige, piety and/or money penalties!
• For example, if I lose an Unjust war for a Kingdom, you are required to give hostage your heir. Or, every Duke in that Kingdom gets a claim on your primary title. Or, you lose all YOUR claims, regardless. Or, if you win a Unjust war for an Empire, all "new" vassals get a strong claim on the Empire-title. Or, only King-level vassals are allowed on your council.
• But whatever you do, please beware of how the AI will handle it.
• Good luck!

 

[Norman666]

First off, we’re going to deemphasize the “Fabricate Claim” job by giving all playable entities (including Christians) a form of “Unjustified War” Casus Belli that will allow you to seize a single County for an upfront cost of Piety, Prestige or Gold (depending on your Religion and Government Form.)

This idea would only work in a historic idea if it was used by christians only against other religions, as it was used, for example, in the reconquista, where the iberian kings would only capture a single province in a war against the moors, not the whole duchy like in a holy war (would be a pretty cool idea to swap the two, as the massive sunni aliance that happens when you attack a sunni emir in iberia didn't really happen in reality)

Also, there is already the conquest cb for some religions that seems like a better option 100% of the times if you have the choice, will you have the two being a thing at the same time or will you change the conquest cb?