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CK2 Dev Diary #53: Time to pay Tribute

Greetings!

Today I’d like to talk to you about a part of the game that we’ve chosen to overhaul and improve - the Tributary system! Introduced in Horse Lords, the ‘Make Tributary’ CB allowed you to go to war with a neighboring realm to make them pay you 40% of their income until the death of your current character. It was quite a simple system that didn’t always fit the intended purpose very well, so we decided to make it more advanced and capable of diverse use!

Tributaries can now come in a lot of flavors, as they are entirely definable in a new ‘tributary_types’ file. You define a name and then you set the parameters for how you would like the Tributary to work. You are able to customize a lot of things, for example; the various tribute percentages, if the Tributary should be set free on death or if the Suzerain must defend the Tributary in wars.

With this new system we have lots of ideas on where we could add new types of Tributaries, i.e. Permanent Tributaries or Nomad Tributaries. If you have any ideas for a type of Tributary (and when it would make sense to have it/when to gain access to the CB) feel free to post a suggestion in this thread!

To demonstrate, here’s the script for an example Tributary type:

Code:
example = {                                # name used for that type of tributary. "default" is the standard type, replacing the old tributaries, and "none" is reserved and should not be used
    tributary_name = TRIBUTARY_DEFAULT_NAME        # localization string used for tributaries of that type (ie "Tributary" for the default type, "Permanent Tributary" for the Permanent type, etc)
    tributary_plural = TRIBUTARY_DEFAULT_PLURAL    # localization string used for tributaries of that type, when there is more than one (ie "Tributaries" for the default type, "Permanent Tributaries" for the Permanent type, etc)
    suzerain_name = SUZERAIN_DEFAULT_NAME        # localization string used for suzerains of that tributary type (ie "Suzerain" for the default type, "Permanent Suzerain" for the Permanent type, etc)
    tribute_name = TRIBUTARY_DEFAULT_TRIBUTE    # localization string used for "paying $TRIBUTE$" for that tributary type
    breaks_at_suzerain_death = yes        # yes/no value determining if the tributary relationship is dissolved when the suzerain dies.
    breaks_at_tributary_death = no         # yes/no value determining if the tributary relationship is dissolved when the tributary dies
    suzerain_must_defend = no             # yes/no value determining if the suzerain is forced to accept calls to arms from tributary in defensive wars (wars were the tributary is the defender)
                                        # if they decline anyway, they will lose the tributary and an amount of prestige defined in defines.lua, called SUZERAIN_DEFENDER_CALL_DECLINE_COST
    tributary_can_be_summoned = yes     # yes/no value determining if the suzerain can calls the tributaries to war (as tribal vassals / allies)   
    tributary_must_defend = yes            # yes/no value determining if the tributaries are forced to accept defensive calls to arms
    tributaries_can_infight = yes        # yes/no value determining if the tributaries can fight against each others, if both tributaries are of the same type
                                        # if tributaries are of different types, they will always be allowed to fight each other, even if they have the same suzerain
    suzerain_can_join_infighting = yes    # yes/no value determining if the suzerain can join a tributary in a war against another
    tributaries_can_unite = no             # yes/no value determining if, when trying to break, the tributaries can band together against the suzerain, à la major revolt
    breaks_on_realm_change=yes            # yes/no value determining if the tributary relationship is dissolved when the tributary's titles change realms
    cbs_against_suzerain = {            # list of CBs tributaries can use against their suzerain
        free_tributary_cb
    }
    income_tribute_percentage = {        # how much of their monthly income the tributary must pay to their suzerain.
                                        # THIS IS ONLY EVALUATED WHEN THE TRIBUTARY RELATIONSHIP IS FORMED
                                        # and is not reevaluated afterwards
                                        # this value is an MTTH and should compute a value between 0 and 1, inclusive
                                        # in case the total is less than 0, it will be counted as 0
                                        # in case the total is more than 1, it will be counted as 1
                                        # current scope is the tributary, FROM is the suzerain
        value = 0.10
        additive_modifier = {
            value = 0.05
            FROM = {
                is_merchant_republic = yes
            }
        }
    }
    reinforce_tribute_percentage = {    # How much of the tributary's reinforcement rate will go to the suzerain's instead.
                                        # THIS IS ONLY EVALUATED WHEN THE TRIBUTARY RELATIONSHIP IS FORMED
                                        # and is not reevaluated afterwards
                                        # this value is an MTTH and should compute a value between 0 and 1, inclusive
                                        # in case the total is less than 0, it will be counted as 0
                                        # in case the total is more than 1, it will be counted as 1
                                        # current scope is the tributary, FROM is the suzerain

                                        # this is applied by subtracting the percentage, as is, from the tributary's reinforcement rate
                                        # and adding a scaled (based on demesne size= version of the percentage to the suzerain
                                        # So, for example, the tributary loses 10% of reinforcement rate, but the suzerain gains 10% * (tributary's demesne size) / (suzerain's demesne size)
        value = 0.10
        additive_modifier = {
            value = 0.05
            FROM = {
                is_merchant_republic = yes
            }
        }
    }
    prestige_to_suzerain = {            # how much of prestige the suzerain gains every month per tributary (of that type) he holds
                                        # this value is an MTTH and the raw value will be added to the suzerain's prestige every month.
                                        # current scope is the suzerain, FROM is the tributary
        value = 0
    }
    prestige_to_tributary = {            # how much prestige the tributary gains every month
                                        # this value is an MTTH and the raw value will be added to the tributary's prestige every month.
                                        # to make them lose prestige, return a negative value
                                        # current scope is the tributary, FROM is the suzerain
        value = 0
    }
    piety_to_suzerain = {                # how much of piety the suzerain gains every month per tributary (of that type) he holds
                                        # this value is an MTTH and the raw value will be added to the suzerain's piety every month.
                                        # current scope is the suzerain, FROM is the tributary
        value = 0
    }
    piety_to_tributary = {                # how much of piety a tributary gains every month
                                        # this value is an MTTH and the raw value will be added to the tributary's piety every month.
                                        # to make them lose piety, return a negative value
                                        # current scope is the tributary, FROM is the suzerain
        value = 0
    }
}

I’d also like to expand upon something we touched upon in the last DD; the new ‘unjust conquest’ CB (now renamed to Border Dispute). When declaring a Border Dispute over a County you first and foremost have to pay an upfront cost of Piety and Gold scaled to your tier (in the case of Pagans, prestige is used), but you also take an opinion hit from both your religious head (if you have one) as well as any landed characters of the targeted religious group in both your realm and the one you’re attacking. Note that these opinion modifiers stack! This makes the border Dispute CB dangerous to use on characters of your own religion, especially if you have a religious head capable of excommunicating you. You will primarily want to use this CB to expand early on when drawing the ire of your co-religionists is worth the risk, or against characters not of your religion.

Border_dispute_tooltip.png

Example is of an Irish Count wanting to conquer another Irish Count.


Note that Muslims, Nomads and in certain cases Pagans do not have access to this CB, as their current CB’s are already superior. It is also possible to turn the CB off entirely by using Game Rules.
Border_dispute_GR.png


Note that we’ve also decided to leave Fabricate Claim as it is right now.
 
I understand why a border dispute would cost opinion, piety or prestige, but why would it cost gold?
Because the game needs more gold sinks. Think of it as you forcing some border skirmishes, like cattle raids that you can then use as "justification" for your aggression.
 
With this new system we have lots of ideas on where we could add new types of Tributaries, i.e. Permanent Tributaries or Nomad Tributaries. If you have any ideas for a type of Tributary (and when it would make sense to have it/when to gain access to the CB) feel free to post a suggestion in this thread!

In a previous DD - three weeks ago, I think - you guys mentioned the potential introduction of a "Forced Vassalization" CB. What if, using some modifications to the tributary system, it worked like this instead:

1. Realm makes neighbor into tributary.
2. After neighbor has been tributary for certain threshold of years (maybe 20-30), the suzerain realm has the opportunity to "Offer" Vassalization...
3. The tributary realm can accept or decline based on a number of factors: its opinion of the suzerain, its military might, its other allies, etc. If it declines, a Forced Vassalization war breaks out.
4. If the suzerain wins, the tributary realm is vassalized... and if the rulers are the same rank, then the tributary's highest title is destroyed for this happen. However, if the tributary wins, their realm is freed from the suzerain.

IMO, having something like this would make for a more dynamic, interesting CB than a simple button press.
 
Note that we’ve also decided to leave Fabricate Claim as it is right now.
For me - this isn't good way. This action should have few changes, if we get new CB.

New CB - is great! In addition, I suggest you increase the growth of infamy from this CB. This should make it difficult to abuse this and others CB.
Btw - holy war should be rework. Now is too strong compared to others.
 
I would like to see a mechanic where long term tributaries of the same religion and bordering you could become your direct vassal. A bit in lieu to the de jure drift but then a vassal drift. It should only occur when the tributary hasn't been disputed over multiple rule transfers.

I think this would add another dimension to diplomatic and expansion options and still be in theme of the game.
 
With the ideas flying around here, the realization of a formerly proposed change of the vassal-liege-system would be nigh. At long last William the Conqueror could be a sovereign king while still paying tribute to France and the Holy Roman Empire could be represented much better, as well. Of course, it should be possible to demand de-jure counties from your vassals, but the AI should be mostly discouraged from it, as it should be happy with the income it gets via the tributary. Of course that wouldn't be a perfect fit, as William the Conqueror didn't pay tax for all of England, but only his french estates, swearing vassalage to the french monarch still. But it'd be closer to a more realistic system (if tributaries allowed for levies, which I think they won't).
 
I'm imagining a "Protectorate" type of tributary. Small amount of tax as tribute (~20%) but a much larger levy tribute (~50%). Suzerain is obligated to join in all defensive wars of their Tributes. Tributes should be able to join in any war the Suzerain is in, but should not be forced to (I'm not certain that there is a way to make that distinction right now...)
 
Finally someone mentions this! I had no idea if people are using it...
I can't speak for most but I use it all the time. It's one of those things that just makes sense and leaves me scratching my head as to why it's not in the base game.
 
The new Tributary changes are simply amazing! Perharps we can get a Game Rule with different options regarding tribute size/tribute end conditons/mutual defense agreement?

I like how Border Dispute gives warmongering Christians some way to expand while also forcing them to think twice before using it.

I dislike the "Fabricate Claim" job due a number of reasons already given by the devs (see last dev diary's comments), but if no other option had come it seems we are stuck with its randomness a little longer.
 
Because the game needs more gold sinks. Think of it as you forcing some border skirmishes, like cattle raids that you can then use as "justification" for your aggression.

The game may need more gold sinks, but not necessary for the early years, when you are likely to declare a border dispute.

You can justify a gold cost for pretty much anything if you try hard enough. But does it make sense for a new player that some wars cost gold and others don't?
There must be smarter solutions that don't add more complexity to a game already pretty complex.
 
I agree with the other posters interested in a game rule to turn off the (current functionality) of Fabricate Claim... the issue I see with that however is what to do with the Councilor-Job in it's place, and the awkwardness of having the job to different things based on a game rule.

My proposed reconciliation is for there to be alternative flavorful options that pops up when your Diplomat successfully fabricates the claim (to preserve the job itself even if the specific -press fabricated claim- is disabled). It could include things like using the false claim as pressure for forcing a marriage (to "contain" the claim back within their dynasty), or other odd diplomatic scenarios that have yet to be fleshed out in the game.

It could even be an interesting place to hook some of the special/less-general tributary types introduced or made moddable by the updates outlined in this DD, for ones which need more justification / gated behind more than just point and declare.
 
I cannot read all the posts right now so sorry if the suggestion has been already mentioned:

I was thinking about a mild version of a tributary that is basically a forced NAP but with that exception that you do not get any money, nor the tributary accepts your calls to arms but you get some expanded diplomation, like being able to marry with the nobility of the tributary realm even if they are of different religion and you get asked for permission every time when the tributary wants to go to war or change succession laws. Or maybe even every law. On the top of that, after some time and with quite rare MTTH you could get a cb to disassembly the tributaries empire title. A tributary type only for Christians, maybe?
 
It's somhow ridiculous that if a king tier wins a tributary war against an empire tier the later still calls himself an Emperor.

So if an Emperor loses in that case the Empire should be destroyed. King tier vassals set free and he keeps all his duke and count vassals.

If this is to harsh at least call him king and take all the boni while of empire tier while he is a tributary.
 
Will there be a diplomatic action for demanding tribute, like in CK2+?
Seconded. Please have an option both to ask for tribute and to offer tribute. It could be similar to the Offer vassalization and Swear fealty actions, but characters asked for tribute would not take title rank or de jure relation into account, but only relative power and distance between realms. Characters who are offered tribute would always accept unless they are planning to conquer you in the immediate future.