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CK2 Dev Diary #84 - Renovating Russia

Greetings!

Today we’re going back into the cartographer’s office to view the latest maps of the vast lands that lie just before the eternal steppes, where the Volga flows - the land of the proud Rus’. The Russian lands have always felt rather underdeveloped in CK2 compared to their size, even very important sites such as Kiev or Novgorod have been occupied by massive Counties that hardly give the area justice. As the area is one which lies in between the lords of feudal western europe, the Roman remnants in Byzantium and the relentless nomads of the steppes we thought it much too interesting to not develop further.

As Russia is quite big, we’ve broken the images up into three parts. These pictures are all from the year 769, so if something isn’t named as you expect it to be (i.e. Novgorod being named Ilmen) that’s the reason why.

Starting off with the north:
RussiaDD_North.png

As you can see, the definition has increased rather significantly. Historicity has also been improved, as the new borders are all based on sources from between the years ~600 to ~1300 (From proto-slavic tribes migrating in the area to the dissolution of the Kievan Rus' by internal strife and the Mongol hordes) with a focus on the 700-1100 timespan.

Now the south:
RussiaDD_South.png

Of primary note is that Kiev is now split up, and no longer one single humongous County. Those of you with sharp eyes might also notice that there is a new nomadic nation up by Radimichia and Severia - the Burtas clan, which is Turkic.

And as a bonus, Wallachia:
RussiaDD_Wallachia.png

As Bessarabia was so interconnected with the Kievan and Crimean lands, it felt right to also give the kingdom of Wallachia a facelift.

And now for the De Jure maps, as they have been requested in every previous map Dev Diary so far!

Duchies:
RussiaDD_769DeJureDuchies.png


Kingdoms:
RussiaDD_769DeJureKingdoms.png


You may notice that the old Rus’ kingdom is gone, replaced with the much more historical kingdoms of Novgorod and Vladimir. There are also several new smaller kingdoms, such as Galicia-Volhynia and Chernigov which both provide new opportunities and new risks, depending on if you’re playing in the Tribal era or Feudal era.

Empires:
RussiaDD_769DeJureEmpires.png

There was no doubt that the Tartarian empire was too big, that’s why when we had to add to it (the Kingdom of Perm is now part of it instead of Russia) we felt the need to break it up. In the south you can now see an empire of the Pontic Steppe - closely representing the Khazarian sphere of influence at its height.

Here’s a screenshot of how the 867 setup will look:
RussiaDD_867.png

And here’s 1066:
RussiaDD_1066.png

The major thing in this date is that after Yaroslav the Wise's death in 1054, his land in the Kievan Rus was divided between his 5 sons. Internal strife erupted quickly after between the sons and other relatives (like the prince of Polotsk), hurting the stability of the state.

That's why although the Kievan Rus' still existed as somewhat centralized around the Grand Prince of Kiev, at least for a while, unity wasn't the key word to describe the state. We've reflected that by keeping the different duchies independent but still tributaries to Kiev - until civil war starts again when brothers, sons, and cousins start pushing for their claims...

Changelog:
Code:
- Map Update to Russia
   - Major overhaul of the whole russian sphere
    - All major & minor rivers reshaped
    - e_russia is now created through 5 kingdoms (Ruthenia, Novgorod, Vladimir, Chernigov & Galicia-Volhynia)
    - 3 new kingdoms : Vladimir, Chernigov, Galicia-Volhynia
    - k_rus renamed from "Rus" to "Novgorod"
    - 4 new duchies (Cherven Cities, Karachev, Novosil, Murom)
    - 37 new provinces added to the general area
    - A few titular russian-tribes-themed duchies added for earlier startdates

Note that from now on, CK2 Dev Diaries will take place on Fridays rather than Mondays!
 
Or Ottoman empire. Ottomans taking the throne by force is not different from generals taking the throne by force. Religion can't be the reason either because the ERE was Orthodox, nicht Hellenic-Roman.
It is a bit "out of topic " but its an interesting point . The fact that the Ottoman Empire is called successor of the Eastern Roman Empire is solely based on the possession of Constantinople. The sultans appropriated the title of Caesar ("kaysar") only for the prestige it represented not because they sincerely believed to be the successors of Rome and it was quickly abandoned. In "Empires" of Burbank and Cooper, it is clearly demonstrated that this proclaimed continuity was purely fake both from the point of view of institutions and culturally and by the geopolitical priorities of the Ottomans. The Turks are an Altaic people, not a Latin people like the Spaniards / Italians / French etc .... nor a Hellenic people like the Greeks or the Copts. The Turks were seen as strangers by the Byzantines, which is very different from an usurpation by a general or even from the way they perceived the Latins and, after the fall of Constantinople , they were never recognized as heirs of Rome by other powers. Religion is important because the Byzantine Empire was Christian in its institutions; the emperor was the "vicar of Christ" who theoretically had to extend the Christian oikoumene, which corresponded in the late roman ideology to the Roman world. And to say that the Roman Empire was not Christian is to forget that from the IVth century the empire has only Christian emperors except Julian, it is to forget that the Western Empire was Catholic at its disappearance.
 
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That would be a perfect opportunity to educate people that Rus=Ruthenia=Rusia=/=Russia.
History of the term suggests Россия (which gave Russia) is just a back-borrowing of the term Rus, which became basically Ῥωσία in Greek. Territories change, but the word goes the same. (And this really reminds me of the Kajaani/Kainuu thing, which was mentioned by, I think, a dozen Finns by now, but even more strange.) Again, we could go all political, but there's an easier way. You see, we have Italian, French and German culture on the map, when they all (especially Italian) are far from being single during the CKII timeline, so Russian just goes the same way. It is no more restricted to modern Russia than German to modern Germany and no less encompassing together potentially different things than Italian in Italy.
And basically the same thing goes for country. Not to mention, however, also the fact that the empire was not actually created during the CKII timeframe, so it would be as althistory as Scandinavian Empire so who cares what's the name?
 
it would be as althistory as Scandinavian Empire so who cares what's the name?
Because there is a difference between alt history and making stuff up. Alternate history explores the potential of history, how things could have gone in a timeline that branched off from ours at a specified moment, obeying the laws of logic as we know them. I personally think Rusia would be rejected by most as a typo, but still, their point is not invalid.
 
Nothing would stop us then, logically, for having Russia centuries earlier. That was the name that the later empire adopted by Peter the Great's will, after all.
Yep, there is nothing illogical about some state with the territory and style of Russia forming a couple centuries earlier. But here people are exploring what would be the most likely name such a state would have adopted. Russia isn't excluded by default; people are just arguing that e.g. Rusia would be a more plausible name, therefore more realistic.
 
e.g. Rusia would be a more plausible name, therefore more realistic.
If we re-eally would want to be realistic we would have to admit that most likely both names would be circulating along with some other spellings (and pronunciations) and other names entirely. Including Sarmatia, Bysantium, Rome and Lithuania (I - AM - NOT - KIDDING).
 
Yep, there is nothing illogical about some state with the territory and style of Russia forming a couple centuries earlier. But here people are exploring what would be the most likely name such a state would have adopted. Russia isn't excluded by default; people are just arguing that e.g. Rusia would be a more plausible name, therefore more realistic.
It is just a different spelling. It means or implies the same thing - claim to the Rus region.

I mean, Kiev itself shouldn't be called Kiev/Kyiv as well, if go there - the original name is neither modern Russian Kiev nor modern Ukrainian Kyiv. It would be something in the middle, like Kyev.

Personally I am not a fan of Russia or Rusia, no matter how it is spelled. Something like "Empire of Rus" in English sounds much better.
 
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I don't think they made one for CK2, but they made one for EU4
well that'd be why I never knew. If I had to list the currently supported PDS games in order of should always exist with an active dev team down to why is this still even supported die already,
  • CKii - i think this game is so likable for myself is because it is relatable in that we are playing an actual person with a family and not acting as some god overseer to a random country so it is more personal. and you have so many choices, esp with all the amazing expansions and the super cool game settings/customization window that ALL PDS games should have. But what it really boils down to with this game is, i'll just play one more year turning into so many stolen early morning hours!
  • HoI IV - when in the mood for painting of the maps look no further than this. also has been evolving RP side with alternative history which I enjoy
  • Stellaris - pre launch 4x hype still outshines everything this game was suppose to be but isn't & well we shall not talk about the nail in the coffin FTL change
  • EU 4 - I really did put quite a few hours into it (even used the ckii save converter dlc) trying to like it but I think it's just a super boring game lacking personal investment
What is your list ranking of the current PDS games that have active dev teams?
 
The Difference here is, that the Ottomans conquered the Empire and proclaimed themselves the new Rome while the Byzantines, or however you call them, have a continuing existence. Yes, they lost the city of Rome and the western half of the Empire. But it’s still the Roman Empire. And Religion doesn’t matter at all.
Actually rome has pretty much ceased to exist a fair few times. Sorry but Thure is right the ottoman take over is no diffrent from dozens of others.
 
Actually rome has pretty much ceased to exist a fair few times. Sorry but Thure is right the ottoman take over is no diffrent from dozens of others.

I'm of this opinion. It wasn't just a flashy title for Mehmet, it was his life goal. He said, "There are three Roman Empires- the first is pagan, the second is Christian, and the third shall be Muslim."

To Mehmet, it was the natural progression of things. He went through all the proper ceremonies to become the emperor, and it was the main reason for his desire to conquer Constantinople. Furthermore, the Byzantine Empire's remnants in Achaea started calling itself "The Despotate of Morea", having reduced themselves to a kingdom at the same time that Mehmet had himself crowned as the next emperor by the Ecumenical Patriarch. This is to say nothing of the actual continuity that existed between the Late Byzantines and the Early Ottomans, though of course the Late Ottomans were much different- as different as the Late Byzantines were from Justinian.

You can argue the title went to the Kingdom of Greece after its liberation from the Ottomans, considering that the monarchs styled themselves using Byzantine continuity. Think of it like in EU4 where Greek rebels release Byzantium, instead of Greece. Or, if you'd prefer, think of it in CK2 mechanics:

Mehmet is descended from distinct lines of Byzantine imperial nobility, with both Komnenid and Palaiologid blood in him. View this, then, as his having a weak claim, since it's a couple generations old by then. However, the title is already contested with the Empire of Trebizond claiming its equal legitimacy, thus enabling Mehmet to press his claim. He does so, captures Constantinople, and enforces his demands. At this point, he either wins the title in the war, or uses the "usurp title" function after doing a simple Muslim County Conquest CB. Because he already has Khaganate of Ottoman as his primary title from the "Settle as Iqta" decision his family took centuries ago, he acquires The Byzantine Empire as a secondary imperial title, one that holds all his de jure land (which is why he took it), but he likes Ottoman map color better.

Fastforward to the 19th century, the Russians press the strong claim of the Greek rebel leader, who used the plot "Forge a claim on Byzantine Empire", and had like 2000% plot power from all the Christians in the Ottoman Balkans, and so his plot succeeded with a 90% chance of victory. The Russians press his claim, or act as allies, but mostly send money instead of troops (although the following Russo-Turkish war could be them joining), and the Greek rebels win. Greece reclaims the title of Byzantine Empire, while the Ottomans still hold onto Khaganate of Ottoman. Because they no longer hold the de jure empire, all of their lands start to rebel and by the end of the century they've mostly lost the de jure Byzantine territory.
 
Actually rome has pretty much ceased to exist a fair few times. Sorry but Thure is right the ottoman take over is no diffrent from dozens of others.

It is different, Rome fell and it passed to Constantinople as the eastern empire continued to survive. Constantinople endured all the way until the fourth crusade when it fell, the Empire of Nikea kept it going as or the Empire of Trebizond if you prefer as they were both direct successors of the same culture, religion, government system and heritage etc. Constantinople was retaken by a direct successor which restored the empire although in reality it didn't need restoring as Nikea was Byzantium after the Fourth Crusade.

After Constantinople fell for the last time and Morea and Tribezond also fell then the Roman Empire final died for good, The Ottomans had no claim and were no the Third Rome. If it can indeed be considered to still exist then it either did so via the Russians (quite stretch) or via the Holy Roman Empire due to the Pope's role in it's creation and occasional Byzantine recognition of the HRE as the Western Empire at times in it's long history.

Both empires are now gone either way.
 
It is different, Rome fell and it passed to Constantinople as the eastern empire continued to survive. Constantinople endured all the way until the fourth crusade when it fell, the Empire of Nikea kept it going as or the Empire of Trebizond if you prefer as they were both direct successors of the same culture, religion, government system and heritage etc. Constantinople was retaken by a direct successor which restored the empire although in reality it didn't need restoring as Nikea was Byzantium after the Fourth Crusade.

After Constantinople fell for the last time and Morea and Tribezond also fell then the Roman Empire final died for good, The Ottomans had no claim and were no the Third Rome. If it can indeed be considered to still exist then it either did so via the Russians (quite stretch) or via the Holy Roman Empire due to the Pope's role in it's creation and occasional Byzantine recognition of the HRE as the Western Empire at times in it's long history.

Both empires are now gone either way.
Rome effectively ceased to be at other times, the crisis of the third century for an example, heck the civil wars during caesar's lifetime sort of counts too.
 
Wrong, Rome still existed during the Crisis of the Third Century. The civil wars were also just that civil wars.
No rome was fundamentally divided and no one could say who the true Rome was, that means it did not exist until one faction was victorious.

Rome ceased to be that very early on. Didn't end the Roman Empire at all.
It remerged.