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CK2 Dev Diary #84 - Renovating Russia

Greetings!

Today we’re going back into the cartographer’s office to view the latest maps of the vast lands that lie just before the eternal steppes, where the Volga flows - the land of the proud Rus’. The Russian lands have always felt rather underdeveloped in CK2 compared to their size, even very important sites such as Kiev or Novgorod have been occupied by massive Counties that hardly give the area justice. As the area is one which lies in between the lords of feudal western europe, the Roman remnants in Byzantium and the relentless nomads of the steppes we thought it much too interesting to not develop further.

As Russia is quite big, we’ve broken the images up into three parts. These pictures are all from the year 769, so if something isn’t named as you expect it to be (i.e. Novgorod being named Ilmen) that’s the reason why.

Starting off with the north:
RussiaDD_North.png

As you can see, the definition has increased rather significantly. Historicity has also been improved, as the new borders are all based on sources from between the years ~600 to ~1300 (From proto-slavic tribes migrating in the area to the dissolution of the Kievan Rus' by internal strife and the Mongol hordes) with a focus on the 700-1100 timespan.

Now the south:
RussiaDD_South.png

Of primary note is that Kiev is now split up, and no longer one single humongous County. Those of you with sharp eyes might also notice that there is a new nomadic nation up by Radimichia and Severia - the Burtas clan, which is Turkic.

And as a bonus, Wallachia:
RussiaDD_Wallachia.png

As Bessarabia was so interconnected with the Kievan and Crimean lands, it felt right to also give the kingdom of Wallachia a facelift.

And now for the De Jure maps, as they have been requested in every previous map Dev Diary so far!

Duchies:
RussiaDD_769DeJureDuchies.png


Kingdoms:
RussiaDD_769DeJureKingdoms.png


You may notice that the old Rus’ kingdom is gone, replaced with the much more historical kingdoms of Novgorod and Vladimir. There are also several new smaller kingdoms, such as Galicia-Volhynia and Chernigov which both provide new opportunities and new risks, depending on if you’re playing in the Tribal era or Feudal era.

Empires:
RussiaDD_769DeJureEmpires.png

There was no doubt that the Tartarian empire was too big, that’s why when we had to add to it (the Kingdom of Perm is now part of it instead of Russia) we felt the need to break it up. In the south you can now see an empire of the Pontic Steppe - closely representing the Khazarian sphere of influence at its height.

Here’s a screenshot of how the 867 setup will look:
RussiaDD_867.png

And here’s 1066:
RussiaDD_1066.png

The major thing in this date is that after Yaroslav the Wise's death in 1054, his land in the Kievan Rus was divided between his 5 sons. Internal strife erupted quickly after between the sons and other relatives (like the prince of Polotsk), hurting the stability of the state.

That's why although the Kievan Rus' still existed as somewhat centralized around the Grand Prince of Kiev, at least for a while, unity wasn't the key word to describe the state. We've reflected that by keeping the different duchies independent but still tributaries to Kiev - until civil war starts again when brothers, sons, and cousins start pushing for their claims...

Changelog:
Code:
- Map Update to Russia
   - Major overhaul of the whole russian sphere
    - All major & minor rivers reshaped
    - e_russia is now created through 5 kingdoms (Ruthenia, Novgorod, Vladimir, Chernigov & Galicia-Volhynia)
    - 3 new kingdoms : Vladimir, Chernigov, Galicia-Volhynia
    - k_rus renamed from "Rus" to "Novgorod"
    - 4 new duchies (Cherven Cities, Karachev, Novosil, Murom)
    - 37 new provinces added to the general area
    - A few titular russian-tribes-themed duchies added for earlier startdates

Note that from now on, CK2 Dev Diaries will take place on Fridays rather than Mondays!
 
I hope that one day you guys will update on the pagan reformation mechanics too. It would be really cool to be able to choose whether the religious head would be one of the priests of the holy sites when the religion gets reformed (christian style) or the reformer themself ( caliph style). And that the newly reformed religion could also split in two or more pieces when it spreads further than what could historically be considered their homeland, ie. reformed norse spreading to west african or just even slavic lands
 
There are already four diaries for new map, and all of them focus on Eastern Europe...

Well, I wonder if West Africa can also be renovated. (After all they are also reformable pagans)

I too really hope that West Africa gets expanded upon or renovated or something because the area is definitely interesting in its own way but it's still way too small to keep you interested for long.
 
For me, the cut off point between the Middle Ages and the Renaissance would be the emergence of cannon in warfare which isn't represented in CK2. It''s no accident that the last bookmark for CK2 is 1337 - the start of the Hundred Years War and the emergence of cannon (and Jean Bureau)

The Italian Renaissance is said to be distinct from the general Renaissance. For me, I consider the Renaissance to be 1500-1600, before that is the Middle Ages and afterward is "Modern" or "Baroque" or "Colonial" or whatever you wish to call it. Of course, the Renaissance is "Early Modern" anyways, but regardless. More meaningful dates can be pinned anywhere from the end of the 100 Years War to the Columbian Expedition, but I generally would say the 16th century is "definitive" Renaissance- aka "Medieval with guns"
 
Does that mean we get another dev diary this Friday? :)
Hello everyone!

Unfortunately no Development Diary this Friday 25th of May ( you guys are greedy, but we're happy to see you are hyped for the next one already ;)), We'll see you guys next week!
 
What about the achievement "Russkaya Pravda"? Will it now require you to form the empire of Russia? Also, its description could use an update as it is pretty misleading right now.

Yes! The "Rysskaya Pravda" achievement will require you guys to form the Empire of Russia!
 
Hello everyone!

Unfortunately no Development Diary this Friday 25th of May ( you guys are greedy, but we're happy to see you are hyped for the next one already ;)), We'll see you guys next week!

But but... you can't just name drop an expansion and not post a dev diary on it.... plus now we need to wait two weeks :(
 
But but... you can't just name drop an expansion and not post a dev diary on it.... plus now we need to wait two weeks :(
Oh but this very development diary is linked to Holy Fury! These reworks of the Russian area will be released together with the expansion! ;)
Fret not! Soon enough we'll have more astonishing features to share with you all!
 
That's a shame. The split started occuring during this era after the fall of Kiev to the Mongols between Western Russian (Заходноруська мова/Заходноруській язик/Руська мова/Руській язик) which became modern Ukrainian and Belarusian, and Eastern Russian (Восточнорусский язык/Русский язык) which became the modern Russian Language. I understand that you are busy people, but it's rather a shame that Western Rus' cultures that became heavily influenced by Polish and Lithuanian cultures are still not represented ingame. It's quite logical for the split to occur within Rus', as it represents the diversion between Moscovite Rus' and Kieven Rus' that started with the fall to the Mongols and the subjugation by the Golden Horde, the Lithuanians and the Poles. A shame.

Differences between russians were too insignificant. So there is no need to split russian culture. There were no ukrainians or others until 17th century.
 
For me, the cut off point between the Middle Ages and the Renaissance would be the emergence of cannon in warfare which isn't represented in CK2. It''s no accident that the last bookmark for CK2 is 1337 - the start of the Hundred Years War and the emergence of cannon (and Jean Bureau)


For me it’s 1453 with the fall of Constantinople. This way the middle ages start with the fall of Rome and end with the fall of Rome.
 
For me it’s 1453 with the fall of Constantinople. This way the middle ages start with the fall of Rome and end with the fall of Rome.
Me too. Gotta love bookends.
 
For me it’s 1453 with the fall of Constantinople. This way the middle ages start with the fall of Rome and end with the fall of Rome.
I'd push it a little bit further, myself. Not necessarily with regard to the strict definition of the medieval age, but rather the era which the game embodies, I'd put it closer to 1492, with the close of the Reconquista in Spain, the discovery of the New World, the death of Lorenzo de' Medici, and puts us past the falls of Trebizond and Theodoro, the reign of Vlad the Impaler, and the Wars of the Roses.

Cannon warfare isn't represented, to be certain, but the game's warfare in general tends to be more of a general representation than an absolute recreation: you could tell me that cannons actually are in the game's armies, and I'd probably take your word for it.
 
More or less both. The problem is the effort-effect ratio of cultures in CK2 currently. Basically, updating our current culture base, even locally of course, would take quite a long time for not enough gameplay value behind : bear in mind that CK2's use of cultures isn't too extensive. What you need to realize if you haven't try to mod that before, is that updating existing cultures takes a really long time for what it is, and I know flavour and historicity is very good, but we have to kind of juggle with priorities.

If we're talking about fixing the culture of some specific characters to another culture that we already have (say we have a king of France of Han culture for seemingly no reason), feel free to make a post about that in the Bug Forums of course. But replacing old cultures with new ones is very time consuming for not enough "reward". I also want to point out that this is something we actually discussed possibly doing in the expansion for some places (just so you guys know that we're actually talking about these things :D), but y'know, is like I said above, have to juggle with priorities. We sadly haven't found a way to have infinite time, budget and people yet, ha ha !

On a sidenote, since we're talking about that and you mentioned research, I've also noticed that it can be very tricky for some places, especially when you go back to earlier bookmarks (goddamn 769...) with a lot of conflicting information in certain cases. When I was researching proto-russian tribes locations before Rurik's fun trip, let's just say I couldn't rely on awesome Roman maps with the names and exact locations of every bit of land with people, if you see what I mean. I remember from the Baltics Dev Diary (and some of our Beta Testers) discussions about cultures of some tribes between Prussia and Estonia and yeah, there was a lot of "these guys were kinda lithuanians but also kinda prussians, GLHF bruv".

All quite interesting to research though :D


Arthur

I think there is no point in persuading you about (immersive) "reward", but when I had read this post, I thought... It is a bad idea to make that "reward"? I mean, tweaking those culture to add specific bonuses so they wouldn't be just a plain value (Though I personally don't mind no bonuses, I really do like all those different cultures), perhaps it's worth for another DLC. xD
 
There are already four diaries for new map, and all of them focus on Eastern Europe...

Well, I wonder if West Africa can also be renovated. (After all they are also reformable pagans)

doubt it, paradox seems to have a major hate towards the Africans, I Dont even know why mali was put in the game, its been implemented so bad, and those god awful portraits with the face paint.
 
I'd push it a little bit further, myself. Not necessarily with regard to the strict definition of the medieval age, but rather the era which the game embodies, I'd put it closer to 1492, with the close of the Reconquista in Spain, the discovery of the New World, the death of Lorenzo de' Medici, and puts us past the falls of Trebizond and Theodoro, the reign of Vlad the Impaler, and the Wars of the Roses.

Cannon warfare isn't represented, to be certain, but the game's warfare in general tends to be more of a general representation than an absolute recreation: you could tell me that cannons actually are in the game's armies, and I'd probably take your word for it.

A cannon technology might just make sieges faster. Something the game needs anyway since sieges in the end take forever.
 
Not to mention "Slovene" was the actual self-name of all Slavs at that time,
Actually, whether you have Slov or Slav depends on Slavic dialect.
Except it's wrong Ingria is fennougric not Russian.
Still ruled by the same Norse konungs as Novgorod.
Rename "Russia" to "Rusia". There is a big difference between adjectives "русский" (russian) and "руський
" (rusian or rusyn).
Difficult question, as русский is most likely to be used in both meanings. And, quoting myself, "not to mention the many people reporting a typo: one s in Russia(n)".
, as no need to some insane landgrabs in a middle of nowhere to be able to form an Empire
While somewhat true, Novgorod did gradually extend its influence there.

On a sidenote, has the Ugra/Yugra issue been addressed?
Odessa? What? Isn't this name from Ekaterina II times?
Old Greek region. But yes, the modern city was founded then.
Maybe d_severia should be part of k_ruthenia? It would be more esthetic.
Welcome to medieval Rus [2]. It was nothing close to aesthetics.
What is the culture of the burtas?
Turkic as stated several pages ago. Historically, different theories compete (the main three being Volga-Ugric, Alan=Iranian and Turkic).
As a Pole, first time i saw the name"Galicia-volhynia" was in EUIV. Every historian i met, every history teacher i had, every schoolbook i've read used the name "Red Rus"
Probably some part of Poland-Russia debate. Official Russian name is "Галицко-Волынское княжество".
6) Russian duchies:
Too deep a division given the standard situation elsewhere. Always do consider the gameplay, too. These "duchies" are quite county-like, same goes for your bizarre stack of kingdoms (duchy-like).
I thought Russians spell it the same as Poles, which would be "Grodno".
Now we do, but it's a relatively late influence, isn't it? Polnoglasie, all those things...

Did he create a custom empire instead of e_russia?
No more than Charlemagne controlling France or Britain controlling Aquitaine (de facto if not de jure). You can have some territories outside the de jure title creating it.
"Tsar" in Russian even though comes from "Caesar" through Bulgarian (or whatever), does not strictly mean "Emperor". It has a more generic meaning of "Supreme Ruler".
However, Ivan IV did have an attitude for NOT calling themselves король and considering царь an equivalent to Emperor therefore higher than Kings.
I hope that one day you guys will update on the pagan reformation mechanics too.
Already part of the Holy Fury DLC, isn't it?