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CK2 Dev Diary #84 - Renovating Russia

Greetings!

Today we’re going back into the cartographer’s office to view the latest maps of the vast lands that lie just before the eternal steppes, where the Volga flows - the land of the proud Rus’. The Russian lands have always felt rather underdeveloped in CK2 compared to their size, even very important sites such as Kiev or Novgorod have been occupied by massive Counties that hardly give the area justice. As the area is one which lies in between the lords of feudal western europe, the Roman remnants in Byzantium and the relentless nomads of the steppes we thought it much too interesting to not develop further.

As Russia is quite big, we’ve broken the images up into three parts. These pictures are all from the year 769, so if something isn’t named as you expect it to be (i.e. Novgorod being named Ilmen) that’s the reason why.

Starting off with the north:
RussiaDD_North.png

As you can see, the definition has increased rather significantly. Historicity has also been improved, as the new borders are all based on sources from between the years ~600 to ~1300 (From proto-slavic tribes migrating in the area to the dissolution of the Kievan Rus' by internal strife and the Mongol hordes) with a focus on the 700-1100 timespan.

Now the south:
RussiaDD_South.png

Of primary note is that Kiev is now split up, and no longer one single humongous County. Those of you with sharp eyes might also notice that there is a new nomadic nation up by Radimichia and Severia - the Burtas clan, which is Turkic.

And as a bonus, Wallachia:
RussiaDD_Wallachia.png

As Bessarabia was so interconnected with the Kievan and Crimean lands, it felt right to also give the kingdom of Wallachia a facelift.

And now for the De Jure maps, as they have been requested in every previous map Dev Diary so far!

Duchies:
RussiaDD_769DeJureDuchies.png


Kingdoms:
RussiaDD_769DeJureKingdoms.png


You may notice that the old Rus’ kingdom is gone, replaced with the much more historical kingdoms of Novgorod and Vladimir. There are also several new smaller kingdoms, such as Galicia-Volhynia and Chernigov which both provide new opportunities and new risks, depending on if you’re playing in the Tribal era or Feudal era.

Empires:
RussiaDD_769DeJureEmpires.png

There was no doubt that the Tartarian empire was too big, that’s why when we had to add to it (the Kingdom of Perm is now part of it instead of Russia) we felt the need to break it up. In the south you can now see an empire of the Pontic Steppe - closely representing the Khazarian sphere of influence at its height.

Here’s a screenshot of how the 867 setup will look:
RussiaDD_867.png

And here’s 1066:
RussiaDD_1066.png

The major thing in this date is that after Yaroslav the Wise's death in 1054, his land in the Kievan Rus was divided between his 5 sons. Internal strife erupted quickly after between the sons and other relatives (like the prince of Polotsk), hurting the stability of the state.

That's why although the Kievan Rus' still existed as somewhat centralized around the Grand Prince of Kiev, at least for a while, unity wasn't the key word to describe the state. We've reflected that by keeping the different duchies independent but still tributaries to Kiev - until civil war starts again when brothers, sons, and cousins start pushing for their claims...

Changelog:
Code:
- Map Update to Russia
   - Major overhaul of the whole russian sphere
    - All major & minor rivers reshaped
    - e_russia is now created through 5 kingdoms (Ruthenia, Novgorod, Vladimir, Chernigov & Galicia-Volhynia)
    - 3 new kingdoms : Vladimir, Chernigov, Galicia-Volhynia
    - k_rus renamed from "Rus" to "Novgorod"
    - 4 new duchies (Cherven Cities, Karachev, Novosil, Murom)
    - 37 new provinces added to the general area
    - A few titular russian-tribes-themed duchies added for earlier startdates

Note that from now on, CK2 Dev Diaries will take place on Fridays rather than Mondays!
 
Let's be honest though, Pontic Steppe is even worse. Not that it matters much since you can just name your empire whatever you like, but eh.


I stand partly corrected, but it was also the name of the general region (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythia). The name "Pontic Steppe" just hurts my eyes, I'd rather call it Pontia but Scythia atleast has some historical context.
Either way, no biggie.

I'm of the opinion that it should just be called Khazaria. I don't disagree with you that Pontic Steppe is a poor option. I just think substituting it with Sarmatia or Scythia would be just as bad if not worse.

Khazaria is at least period appropriate and they ruled over an Empire-sized realm
 
Duchy of Sarkel still looks kind of big.

We limited the Russian reshaping and definition improvement to Russia itself. Some VERY MINOR tweaks to the steppes-close-to-russia 's provinces borders have been made, but it's really not much. Thus why Sarkel (and some other provinces, let's be honest) are still a big blobby in the Steppes

Not a big fan of the border between Ruthenia and Chernigov aesthetically, but if it's historic, it's historic

It's somewhat historical, as much as it could be, basically. It's a bit of an odd shape at first but it makes sense and I think if you give it a bit of time, you won't mind that much.
And if you really have a problem with it, it's up to you to savagely conquer away and reshape these DeJure borders ! Bwahaha !

Volga Bulgaria is in an even stranger position now that it's in the middle of three empires than it was when it was in the middle of two

There's no easy answer for that region unfortunately :/
We could probably make a "Volga Bulgaria" empire stretching from Bolghar to the northern playable coast, but it wouldn't be great gameplay-wise, so... eh...
The question is not closed though, we might think of something nice to do there, who knows.

Galicia-Volhynia be shortened to just Volhynia

Would be weird to be honest, the whole reason it became influencial enough to rise to prominence was because the two principalities joined together.
It'd be a bit like like saying "The Polish Commonwealth" or "The Lithuanian Commonwealth" instead of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, if you see what I mean.
Plus, long names like that are more pimp when you have a big territory :cool:

but will we see any new cultures to accompany these map changes?

Nope. That's also why we kept the Burtas as Turkic as, like in other cases, they weren't exactly what we had in stores, so we kind of gave them something close enough to their language and/or customs and/or overlords etc... In the little info I found about the Burtas, it seemed like they fell more into the Turkic culture for what we have. And RageaiR thoght it was fun to have some random turks there and then :D


Arthur
 
The frustration I've always had with Russia is that if you want to be the Republic of Novgorod you can't have your capital in Novgorod. In bookmarks where Novgorod is a republic, it's unplayable for the same reason. The coastal capital requirement is sad!
Lol this kinda reads like a Donald Trump tweet.
 
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Nope. That's also why we kept the Burtas as Turkic as, like in other cases, they weren't exactly what we had in stores, so we kind of gave them something close enough to their language and/or customs and/or overlords etc... In the little info I found about the Burtas, it seemed like they fell more into the Turkic culture for what we have. And RageaiR thoght it was fun to have some random turks there and then :D
angry mordvin girl.png
 
To start, I studied Northern-European history in uni. Why are the Livonians (even more similar to the Estonians than the Finns in the CK 2 time frame) lumped into k_Lithuania and not k_Estonia? And why is k_Estonia is lumped into the Balto-Slavic Wendish empire? You already fixed this mistake as it just didn't make any sense to lump Finnic Suomenusko natives of Northern-Europe together with the Balto-Slavs. It has no historical basis. The Livonian areas being out of k_Estonia in the CK2 time frame is like having Northern-Finns and Southern-Finns in different kingdoms. I could also bring the comparison of Karelian areas being in k_Finland but Livonians are way closer to the Estonians during that time period than Karelians are to Finns. You're re-implementing a mistake that you created during the release of CK 2, it was already fixed as there were dozens of threads about in the main forum, suggestion forum and even the bug forum.

I got hyped about hearing that the region is getting a rework as it is an interesting area to play in during the crusades period and now with the new patch, they're just going to throw the previous changes, which were logical and made a lot of sense, to the trash.

You're making a massive rework in the area and after the patch I have to make a mod in 10 minutes to just change the De_Jure situation in the text file to a sensible and logical situation. I hope this is not true and the De_Jure setup you have on the map is just something that has remained from the previous older versions of CK2 as it was patched to make more sense about a year ago. It such an easy thing to change and improve historical accuracy and overall make the game seem logical.
 
Hi guys! What about changing name of "Pontic Steppe" to Sarmatia and adding new achievment for creating Empire of Sarmatia as Pole? :p
 
To start, I studied Northern-European history in uni. Why are the Livonians (even more similar to the Estonians than the Finns in the CK 2 time frame) lumped into k_Lithuania and not k_Estonia? And why is k_Estonia is lumped into the Balto-Slavic Wendish empire? You already fixed this mistake as it just didn't make any sense to lump Finnic Suomenusko natives of Northern-Europe together with the Balto-Slavs. It has no historical basis. The Livonian areas being out of k_Estonia in the CK2 time frame is like having Northern-Finns and Southern-Finns in different kingdoms. I could also bring the comparison of Karelian areas being in k_Finland but Livonians are way closer to the Estonians during that time period than Karelians are to Finns. You're re-implementing a mistake that you created during the release of CK 2, it was already fixed as there were dozens of threads about in the main forum, suggestion forum and even the bug forum.

I got hyped about hearing that the region is getting a rework as it is an interesting area to play in during the crusades period and now with the new patch, they're just going to throw the previous changes, which were logical and made a lot of sense, to the trash.

You're making a massive rework in the area and after the patch I have to make a mod in 10 minutes to just change the De_Jure situation in the text file to a sensible and logical situation. I hope this is not true and the De_Jure setup you have on the map is just something that has remained from the previous older versions of CK2 as it was patched to make more sense about a year ago. It such an easy thing to change and improve historical accuracy and overall make the game seem logical.
Maybe there should be a de jure Uralic Empire consisting of Perm, Finland, Estonia and Sápmi. That way We can deal with Volga Bulgaria and it would balance out the de jure makeup of the region. The only problem could be with Scandinavia, as it would be somewhat smaller. OTOH, even with the new patch Sápmi and Finland are smaller in the amount of provinces.
 
I'm of the opinion that it should just be called Khazaria. I don't disagree with you that Pontic Steppe is a poor option. I just think substituting it with Sarmatia or Scythia would be just as bad if not worse.

Khazaria is at least period appropriate and they ruled over an Empire-sized realm
Khazaria is a good bet since Khazaria really was only semi-nomadic.

We limited the Russian reshaping and definition improvement to Russia itself. Some VERY MINOR tweaks to the steppes-close-to-russia 's provinces borders have been made, but it's really not much. Thus why Sarkel (and some other provinces, let's be honest) are still a big blobby in the Steppes
You should probably have gone all the way up to the volga don portage.

There's no easy answer for that region unfortunately :/
We could probably make a "Volga Bulgaria" empire stretching from Bolghar to the northern playable coast, but it wouldn't be great gameplay-wise, so... eh...
The question is not closed though, we might think of something nice to do there, who knows.
Why not? if you are afraid it'll get created to easily then just add some extra creation conditions.
No, if you read the geography section of the article it says that the whole orange area is regions that have been called Scythia.
Actually the picture text of that picture says the orange area is not Scythian but Iranian speaking tribes but thanks for playing.
68.JPG
"Approximate extent of Scythia within the area of distribution of Eastern Iranian languages (shown in orange) in the 1st century BC"
the eastern iranian languages are in orange and only the srea around the text scythia is scythian. And it's in the first century before Christ, more than 800 years before the earliest start of Ck2.

Maybe there should be a de jure Uralic Empire consisting of Perm, Finland, Estonia and Sápmi. That way We can deal with Volga Bulgaria and it would balance out the de jure makeup of the region. The only problem could be with Scandinavia, as it would be somewhat smaller. OTOH, even with the new patch Sápmi and Finland are smaller in the amount of provinces.
It would make scandinavia even easier to form.
 
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Actually the picture text of that picture says the orange area is not Scythian but Iranian speaking tribes but thanks for playing.
View attachment 371158
"Approximate extent of Scythia within the area of distribution of Eastern Iranian languages (shown in orange) in the 1st century BC"
the eastern iranian languages are in orange and only the srea around the text scythia is scythian. And it's in the first century before Christ, more than 800 years before the earliest start of Ck2.

Can't you read the actual article as well though?

The region known to classical authors as Scythia included:

 
What cultures are Tivertsi Ushytsia and Olvia? I know it's a bit in the periphery, but I'm kind of hoping for Vlach. Doing a proper culture Wallachia game from 769 is very difficult.

Also, is there any particular reason that in the code CK2 Russian culture is called russian_culture as opposed to EU4 where it's just called russian? When I turn off the custom nations flag after converting (as you should), every formable tag can form except for Russia because it has arcane culture requirements that no culture in CK2 meets. I'll probably just edit the Russia decision to include russian_culture, but I was just wondering what the reasoning for CK2's being different was.