• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

CK2 Dev Diary #88 - A Faith In My Own Image

Greetings!

Bit of a sneaky DevDiary today - this Friday (when we usually post Dev Diaries) is the time for Midsummer celebrations here in Sweden, so we wouldn't be able to answer your questions! Tomorrow we'll be busy eating pickled herring and getting rained on, but today we're here for you!

By now it’s hardly a secret that the two main focuses for the Holy Fury expansion are going to be Catholicism as well as Paganism. Playing as a Catholic is core to the game, with a grounded set of rules for you to adhere to (and abuse). Playing a Pagan, in contrast, is a more visceral and instantly gratifying experience - with a strong emphasis on dynamism compared to the more rigid christian faiths. Before going any further, it’s worth noting that the Pagan religious group will be unlocked and playable with Holy Fury.

With Holy Fury, reforming a Pagan faith is no longer a one-click type of deal. Instead you’ll be able to tailor the new religion to become exactly what you want it to be through the new Reformation interface:
ReformationDD_ReformView.png


You will be able to open and preview this screen at any point while playing an unreformed pagan, allowing you to plan ahead what type of features you want to pick. We’ve also taken this opportunity to make the Bön religion reformable, to provide equal opportunity to the eastern Pagans.
ReformationDD_FeaturePicker.png


There are three different types of ‘slots’ to be filled in, the Nature, Doctrine and Leadership of the religion. The default selection will be thematically chosen depending on what faith you’re reforming - though there’s nothing stopping you from picking wildly divergent features, such as a Pacifistic Nature for the Germanic religion.

While most features will be available to all pagan religions, they will all have one unique doctrine that only they can pick. This is to enhance the differences between the various unreformed pagan faiths. The Germanic special feature will, for example, contain Seafaring and Prepared Invasions - something the other religions must spend two doctrine slots to get.

The possibilities with reformation are near endless, you’ll be able to make a religion that suits your specific needs. For example, if you’re surrounded by other religions (very common if playing Zun or Bön for example) the Cosmopolitan Nature would be advised, as then you can intermarry with your neighbors to create non-aggression pacts. If you’re tired of the Abrahamic religions and their incessant Crusades, you can adopt a Warmongering Nature combined with a Bloodthirsty Gods doctrine to really show them what you think of their weak rituals.

As there’s too many features for us to bring up right now, I’ll save them for a future Dev Diary. Worth noting is that several of the Doctrines you can choose will contain special events and decisions tied to them, so even if you’ve already played a game once where you reform a Pagan faith - you might just want to play another one, to see what could have been different.

To round off, here’s a few of our favorite reformation setups from us in the Dev Team:

ReformationDD_ReformViewRageair.png

Starting off with my own choice, I’m all about creating chaos - and there’s no greater way to achieve that than to promote not only close-kin marriage, but also harems on top of that! Once during a multiplayer with the Dev Team I managed to reform the religion most of us was playing into something similar to this. They were confused when their children started marrying each other, to say the least!

ReformationDD_ReformViewSnowcrystal.png

@Snow Crystal I like playing tall, so I like boosts that let me control who the Heir is, as well as making sure the heir is as popular as possible. I can't stand having a Religious Head that tells me what to do, and think Autocephalous is pretty cool. I don't really care about spreading my faith outside of my borders - if anything, I’d prefer everything outside my borders to be heathenous, so that I get more of a challenge!

ReformationDD_ReformViewSilfae.jpg

@Silfae Usually upon reforming, my dynasty ends up alone against a world of infidels. The quickest way to spread the faith when in those circumstances is through military action, hence the need for a Warmongering Nature. Picking the Astrology Doctrine unlocks the Zodiac traits for my characters, giving them various attribute boosts, while Haruspicy can help me influence the morale of my armies (for better or worse). Furthermore, since Astrology and Haruspicy are synergistic Doctrines, by combining them I gain access to additional perks that would have otherwise been out of reach for me... as well as ending up with an extremely superstitious religion.

ReformationDD-CJ.JPG

@Tuscany One of my favorite reformation combinations is mixing 'Bloodthirsty Gods’ and ‘Haruspicy'. Being able to sacrifice people to your gods and get rewarded for it is great fun, and when combined with Haruspicy (the art of reading an animal's entrails to predict the future) you can even cut apart your prisoners and see whether you will be lucky in future wars. Of course I pick ‘Temporal’ to allow me to rule over all of this as the conduit between god and man, and ‘Peaceful’ because non-violence is obviously the best strategy.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Also if anyone is interested we just did a bit of an estimate and it seems like there are around 3000 possible combinations. Our maths might be a bit off though as some doctrines exclude others but either way its quite a few! :)

Edited to be a more accurate number because our programmer can't math.
That would mean that most likely there are 12 doctrines.. When you try to solve math equation [6*x*(x-1)*4] then the closest value of x is 12. With 12 as an answer, answer to the equation is 3168. Keeping in mind that few doctrines exclude others, answer also could be x aka number of doctrines =13.
 
That would mean that most likely there are 12 doctrines.. When you try to solve math equation [6*x*(x-1)*4] then the closest value of x is 12. With 12 as an answer, answer to the equation is 3168. Keeping in mind that few doctrines exclude others, answer also could be x aka number of doctrines =13.
You are ordering the doctrines, meaning that the way you do it, Survivors of Ukko + Astrology is different from Astrology + Survivors of Ukko

I think using combinations would solve this problem, which would give us 6 * 78 (pick two doctrines among 13) * 4 = 1872.

With the same number of Nature and Leadership, you'd need 16 doctrines to have 6 * 120 * 4 = 2880.
With 17 doctrines we'd have 6 * 136 * 4 = 3264.

If some combinations are not permitted then we'd be pretty close to 3000, assuming we have 6 nature and 4 leaderships
 
Still think its silly that the ability to sail up and down rivers is restricted by religion.

Sounds like someone hasn't been praying hard enough to the River God lately! Fortunately my "Riverine" Doctrine will change all that once I reform...
 
My hypotheses
Code:
Nature
Unyielding: Resistance to conversion, defensive bonus
Proselytizing: Bonus to conversion, GHW, attacking own faith loses piety
Dogmatic: +Moral authority, GHW, no outside faith marriage, attacking own faith loses piety (Islam)
Cosmopolitan: Intermarriage, GHW, malus to conversion, -Moral authority
Warmongering: CB against neighbours, loses prestige if at peace for too long (Germanic)
Peaceful: Piety bonus when not at war, opinion bonus with vassals when at peace, demesne limit+ (Jain)

Doctrine
Survivors of Ukko: Special doctrine (Suomonesko)
Astrology: Zodiack, Hermetics?
Divine Marriage: Close-kin marriage (Zoroastrianism)
Polygame: Multiples wives (Islam)
Meritocracy: Can chose heir (Buddhist)
Stability: Increases prosperity
Haruspicy: Scrying
Bloodthirsty Gods: Sacrifices, Great Blot (Aztec, Germanic)

Leadership
Autocephalous: Like Orthodox, Coptics
Temporal: Fylkir, reforming ruler becomes religion ruler
Hierocratic: Papacy?

I bet that Zodiac will give your characters a trait depending on what month they were born, e.g. capricorns get +1 martial, and pisces +1 diplomacy, or something like that.
 
How much will the unreformed part of the religion influence the reformed one? I saw the bit about the unique doctrine for every faith but how about things like Runestones, raiding, concubinage, events, etc?
 
Could it be possible to have generic heresies (e.g. "Lokiism" and just arbitrary names like that ) which copy the settings for the parent religion but randomize one or two of the slots? Would be a cool feature, especially since reformed faiths shine with their absence of heresies right now!
 
How much will the unreformed part of the religion influence the reformed one? I saw the bit about the unique doctrine for every faith but how about things like Runestones, raiding, concubinage, events, etc?
Minor flavor that is tied specifically to a religion, such as the Zunist Feast, is always retained, main features can be overridden depending on choice (as I mentioned above, if, for example, the original religion is Warmongering and you reform it to be Peaceful, it will not obtain the features of Peaceful on top of its warlike bonuses, but instead lose one thing for the other.
 
This is great! Nice surprise on a Thursday too.

For others to see, I made a list a while ago of many of the differences that exist currently between religions ingame, pagan (unreformed and reformed) or non-pagan. Many of these may end up being customisable in the new reformation mechanics for pagans. I'm sure that there's some things here that won't be used, and others included that I didn't think of.
  • Elected head of religion / Generated head of religion / Secular head of religion
  • College of cardinals
  • Investiture
  • Autocephaly
  • Excommunication
  • Antipopes
  • Papal favours
  • Priests being able to inherit
  • Patriarchal (no female temple holders)
  • Feminist (no penalty to female ruler/heir)
  • Ordering to take the vows, and related traits
  • Short reign penalty length, or if there is one
  • Divorces (and how they are gotten)
  • Pilgrimage, and related traits
  • Missionaries
  • Piety gain for having theocratic vassals
  • Access to Societies (Monastic societies, hermetics, Devil worshippers, warriors lodges...)
    --------------------------
  • Resistance to conversion
  • Vassals never try to convert provinces unless they are zealous (Judaism)
  • Decadence
  • Polygamy
  • Being able to hold castle and temple holdings without penalty
  • Using piety for law changes
  • Prohibited uncle/niece or aunt/nephew marriage
  • Opinion penalties among brothers / half-brothers
    --------------------------
  • Concubinage
  • Raiding
  • River travel
  • Unique traits (Viking, Ravager, Sea King/Queen, Shieldmaiden, Berserker, Saoshyant, Saoshyant Descendent, Sayyid, Mirza)
  • Heir designation
  • Access/restriction to succession laws (Ultimogeniture for Zunists, limitation to gavelkind for pagans, etc)
  • Intermarrying with other faiths
  • Prestige loss when at peace, or piety gain when at peace.
  • Piety loss when at war with same faith.
  • Opinion modifiers (bonus to One-Eyed, Shieldmaiden, etc)
  • Offensive/defense pagans
  • Defensive pagan features - Ancestor worship, patron deities, summon devout warriors
  • Combat/attrition bonuses (Hindus get extra morale, Tengris ignore pagan attrition, etc)
  • Levy/Garrison/Retinue bonuses (offensive pagans get levy big bonuses, Germanics an extra retinue one, Tengri get Light cav bonuses, defensives get garrison bonuses, etc). These can change or be removed with reformation.
    --------------------------
  • Divine blood
  • Human sacrifice
  • Great Blot
  • Runestones
  • Sky burial
  • Festivals / Passover / Ramadan / etc
  • Caste systems
  • Court Gurus
  • Reject negative traits
  • Sects (for Dharmic religions, and Mutazilite / Ashari for Sunni)
  • Stat bonuses (learning for Buddhists, stewardship for Taoists)
  • Vassal opinion bonuses (Jain)
  • Demesne limit bonuses (Jain)
  • Restricted carousing/hunting (for Muslims and Jains respectively, on most occasions)
    --------------------------
  • Holy wars (with variable cost of piety or no cost of piety, targeting county or duchy, variable truce time, vassalise or usurp)
  • Great holy wars
  • Subjugation
  • Coastal conquest
  • County conquest
  • Prepared/sanctioned/tribal invasions
I would imagine some of these will remain exclusive to certain religions - College of Cardinals / Papal Favour / Investiture for Catholics, and decadence for Muslims. Loads more examples

I'd also say concubines and raiding will remain a default option for all pagans, as well as county conquests and a few other things.

The thoughts of all the combinations given in the pictures alone look great! I wonder how many things will be always intrinsic, so to speak, with Germanics or Slavics or Aztecs, for example, regardless of how the religion is reformed. I'm sure there are a few things that will make all Zunists be still have the feeling of Zunism, so to speak, for all pagans.

Can't wait to see what the options will be.
You seem to have missed Divine Blood (and everything associated with it).
Also, the Messalian/Cathar "women can hold all council positions", which annoyingly hasn't been moddable so far.
 
Will the Aztec religion also benefit from this feature (special doctrines etc) or be pre-reformed or something? It's a bit dull playing with sunset invasion if the Aztec emperor immediately converts to Catholicism or another powerful proselytizing religion due to its reformation requirements being too strict.
 
Will it be possible to check this stuff when modding governments? So you could make the bloodthirsty reformed religions use a custom government for example?
Yes, religious features can be checked via triggers.
 
Will the Aztec religion also benefit from this feature (special doctrines etc) or be pre-reformed or something? It's a bit dull playing with sunset invasion if the Aztec emperor immediately converts to Catholicism or another powerful proselytizing religion due to its reformation requirements being too strict.
Yes, Aztec Reformation will use this new system if you own Holy Fury.
 
So you're finally working on fixing the bland sameness of the defensive pagans that has been a complaint since Old Gods released...and putting it behind a pay wall. Not cool...