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CK2 Dev Diary #88 - A Faith In My Own Image

Greetings!

Bit of a sneaky DevDiary today - this Friday (when we usually post Dev Diaries) is the time for Midsummer celebrations here in Sweden, so we wouldn't be able to answer your questions! Tomorrow we'll be busy eating pickled herring and getting rained on, but today we're here for you!

By now it’s hardly a secret that the two main focuses for the Holy Fury expansion are going to be Catholicism as well as Paganism. Playing as a Catholic is core to the game, with a grounded set of rules for you to adhere to (and abuse). Playing a Pagan, in contrast, is a more visceral and instantly gratifying experience - with a strong emphasis on dynamism compared to the more rigid christian faiths. Before going any further, it’s worth noting that the Pagan religious group will be unlocked and playable with Holy Fury.

With Holy Fury, reforming a Pagan faith is no longer a one-click type of deal. Instead you’ll be able to tailor the new religion to become exactly what you want it to be through the new Reformation interface:
ReformationDD_ReformView.png


You will be able to open and preview this screen at any point while playing an unreformed pagan, allowing you to plan ahead what type of features you want to pick. We’ve also taken this opportunity to make the Bön religion reformable, to provide equal opportunity to the eastern Pagans.
ReformationDD_FeaturePicker.png


There are three different types of ‘slots’ to be filled in, the Nature, Doctrine and Leadership of the religion. The default selection will be thematically chosen depending on what faith you’re reforming - though there’s nothing stopping you from picking wildly divergent features, such as a Pacifistic Nature for the Germanic religion.

While most features will be available to all pagan religions, they will all have one unique doctrine that only they can pick. This is to enhance the differences between the various unreformed pagan faiths. The Germanic special feature will, for example, contain Seafaring and Prepared Invasions - something the other religions must spend two doctrine slots to get.

The possibilities with reformation are near endless, you’ll be able to make a religion that suits your specific needs. For example, if you’re surrounded by other religions (very common if playing Zun or Bön for example) the Cosmopolitan Nature would be advised, as then you can intermarry with your neighbors to create non-aggression pacts. If you’re tired of the Abrahamic religions and their incessant Crusades, you can adopt a Warmongering Nature combined with a Bloodthirsty Gods doctrine to really show them what you think of their weak rituals.

As there’s too many features for us to bring up right now, I’ll save them for a future Dev Diary. Worth noting is that several of the Doctrines you can choose will contain special events and decisions tied to them, so even if you’ve already played a game once where you reform a Pagan faith - you might just want to play another one, to see what could have been different.

To round off, here’s a few of our favorite reformation setups from us in the Dev Team:

ReformationDD_ReformViewRageair.png

Starting off with my own choice, I’m all about creating chaos - and there’s no greater way to achieve that than to promote not only close-kin marriage, but also harems on top of that! Once during a multiplayer with the Dev Team I managed to reform the religion most of us was playing into something similar to this. They were confused when their children started marrying each other, to say the least!

ReformationDD_ReformViewSnowcrystal.png

@Snow Crystal I like playing tall, so I like boosts that let me control who the Heir is, as well as making sure the heir is as popular as possible. I can't stand having a Religious Head that tells me what to do, and think Autocephalous is pretty cool. I don't really care about spreading my faith outside of my borders - if anything, I’d prefer everything outside my borders to be heathenous, so that I get more of a challenge!

ReformationDD_ReformViewSilfae.jpg

@Silfae Usually upon reforming, my dynasty ends up alone against a world of infidels. The quickest way to spread the faith when in those circumstances is through military action, hence the need for a Warmongering Nature. Picking the Astrology Doctrine unlocks the Zodiac traits for my characters, giving them various attribute boosts, while Haruspicy can help me influence the morale of my armies (for better or worse). Furthermore, since Astrology and Haruspicy are synergistic Doctrines, by combining them I gain access to additional perks that would have otherwise been out of reach for me... as well as ending up with an extremely superstitious religion.

ReformationDD-CJ.JPG

@Tuscany One of my favorite reformation combinations is mixing 'Bloodthirsty Gods’ and ‘Haruspicy'. Being able to sacrifice people to your gods and get rewarded for it is great fun, and when combined with Haruspicy (the art of reading an animal's entrails to predict the future) you can even cut apart your prisoners and see whether you will be lucky in future wars. Of course I pick ‘Temporal’ to allow me to rule over all of this as the conduit between god and man, and ‘Peaceful’ because non-violence is obviously the best strategy.
 
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Atlantis ?? What are you talking about ...
Sorry but now you seem to trying to climb on slipery soap wet windows by totally neglecting facts.
I don't understand why you oppose the idea because it has no negative impact on anything and as a plus its an historical correction that adds gameplay flavour , the only logic reason why you should oppose , with nonexhistant issues is that you oppose simply for the sake of it .
Also you seem pretty much to ignore who the Mani were and were not semisavage tribals you are describing there....
the Mani peninsula is also not a quite small place Maniots were widespread in Laconia.

a Region that actually is already present in CK II
maxresdefault.jpg


And even if you do not want to make the whole region as paganism you can simply give it to the Barony of Mani and would be enough .
There are no issues and no reasons to oppose the idea.

The Maniots were present in Monemvasia, roughly equivalent to Laconia.

But they were in *part* of the left-hand peninsula of that county.
In that part of the peninsula, they then formed a portion of the population, and probably weren't dominant, since they're supposed to have been specifically in the inaccessible areas of that small peninsula.

So, we have them in maybe a fifth of a "county" of four slots, three of which are built at game start. They're not even certainly dominant in that less than one "barony" area.

You can't just give the barony over, since the people's religion is set at county level. If you mean make the barony Hellenic, well there's a problem. The local leadership was Orthodox Christian, not Hellene.
 
I don't really get why having Hellenism in the base (unmodded) game is such a big deal, as CK2+ and Ancient Religions Reborn have a really nice implementation of Hellenism.
Do you really care that much about getting SPQR as a Hellenic pagan?
 
Unless you work for PAradox and know things on it you shoulnt claim what Devs what and don't and why . Let them speak for themselves.
As for the Hellenic religion this request comes into the light of the new upcoming expansion that guess what? Focus on the pagan religions as well!

That's literally what they said after removing Hellenism from the generator. I didn't claim it. Also the reformation did not add Hellenist events, but general events. The problem would be hellenist specific events.
 
4 it takes zero effort to implement

I was going to write "Have you played Hellenism? It's basically empty, so they would have to put effort into giving it some gameplay/features."
...but then I remembered that with the new mechanic we'd be choosing the features for Hellenic..
Still I guess there'd still have to be code for the reformation (right now you can't reform it irrc), and some event texts and events. So there would have to be some effort put into it.

On that topic: We don't know how the random maps mechanic will work yet, if it randomizes county religion, then random maps could be a very good place for a viable form of Hellenism.

The reformer gets to pick one. Then yes the top lieges.
And how would you prevent those AI lieges from picking the same, repetitive features every single game?
Because with the AI you know they would fixate on something...
 
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@Prometheus1

OK.
Man up and tell me what you disagree with.

Your wiki links show the Mani peninsula as equivalent to the left hand peninsula of Monemvasia.

Are you disputing that?

Look at it's size compared to the whole province.

Now look at it in the 769 start, and notice the lack of barony slots.


Perhaps you're disagreeing that the "peoples" religion is county level?
Check it.

Or are you suggesting the holder of the castle there should be Hellene?
Give us some proof.


Or are you just "disagreeing" on general principle, and using it as a downvoting system for people who have a different opinion?
 
Unless you work for PAradox and know things on it you shoulnt claim what Devs what and don't and why . Let them speak for themselves.

I don't work for PDS, but I can use the search function. It is currently a bit broken, so I can't give you an extremely recent quote on the matter, but here's a quote from Groogy (I'll not @ him or quote him in such a fashion that he'll get alerted since he probably doesn't want to get dragged back into this particular argument again) from back when the Hellenics were removed from the Ruler Designer:

We didn't remove it solely because people kept asking us to fix the religion, its a stance from the dev team making it clear we do not provide support for any problems you might have while playing them, and through the time there's been a lot of issues, even CTD's and corrupt save games related to people playing Hellenic. Also you keep referring to us fixing stuff for Hellenic/Roman but most of these fixes have been fixed most of the time by piggy-back riding on something else (like the Italian units), it does not mean that we have been actively maintaining this Religion and Culture but rather they got lucky that something else affecting something closely aligned happened to help them out. But we will not directly fix something in the Hellenic religion and that is why it is wrong of us to keep the Religion in the Ruler Designer because it can break their games after they've invested several days worth of gameplay into it.

Let's say the religion is returned to the RD, we will still retain our policy of not actively supporting the religion, leading to even more issues and people continuing to be angry about bugs that will never be fixed. This route we've taken with disabling it in the RD makes it very clear we will not provide support, but we are keeping the religion in the game so people who wants to can take that extra step by cheating to play as it but in doing so is aware we will not help them out if something goes wrong. Think of it of how people would cheat their way into Generic Pagan before The Old Gods was released.

Source. Do not necro that thread!

I know Groogy isn't on the CK2 team right now, but the CK2 devs have paraphrased the "we will not provide support [for the Hellenic religion]" bit several times since that post was made (again, the search function is broken, so I can't easily locate those posts).

If you know of a recent dev post stating that they are prepared to provide support for the Hellenic religion, share it. If not, well, I'd say that the devs have spoken for themselves and are opposed to supporting the Hellenics. They hypothetically could have changed their minds, but unless they say so publicly we have no reason to believe that their position on the matter has changed.
 
Late to the thread and did not read all 19 pages but what do they mean by "Pagan religious group will be unlocked"? You can already play as a pagan.

Most likely will be similar to how you can play as the Bön religion if you own Jade Dragon, even if you don't own Old Gods.
 
Late to the thread and did not read all 19 pages but what do they mean by "Pagan religious group will be unlocked"? You can already play as a pagan.

You can only play as Pagan if you have Old Gods. If you don't have Old Gods you can't play as pagan. But if you buy Holy Fury you can play as Pagan even without Old Gods.
 
Really looking forward towards this great addition! After all, religion was the most important part of medieval life and should play a tremendous role in the game. Also it would be great if you could improve holy orders importance or implement some brand new knightly orders with new mechanics.
 
I don't work for PDS, but I can use the search function. It is currently a bit broken, so I can't give you an extremely recent quote on the matter, but here's a quote from Groogy (I'll not @ him or quote him in such a fashion that he'll get alerted since he probably doesn't want to get dragged back into this particular argument again) from back when the Hellenics were removed from the Ruler Designer:



Source. Do not necro that thread!

I know Groogy isn't on the CK2 team right now, but the CK2 devs have paraphrased the "we will not provide support [for the Hellenic religion]" bit several times since that post was made (again, the search function is broken, so I can't easily locate those posts).

If you know of a recent dev post stating that they are prepared to provide support for the Hellenic religion, share it. If not, well, I'd say that the devs have spoken for themselves and are opposed to supporting the Hellenics. They hypothetically could have changed their minds, but unless they say so publicly we have no reason to believe that their position on the matter has changed.
Seriously ?

This post is from Groogy, Jul 27, 2015

3 years ago and we are discussing on a new DLC that goes to revise paganism so I do not think its written in the stone that Paganism cannot be revises, which is just what's happening right now with the new dlc .
 
Seriously ?

This post is from Groogy, Jul 27, 2015

3 years ago and we are discussing on a new DLC that goes to revise paganism so I do not think its written in the stone that Paganism cannot be revises, which is just what's happening right now with the new dlc .

It still needs work and is not 'no effort' how you claim.
 
Seriously ?

This post is from Groogy, Jul 27, 2015

3 years ago and we are discussing on a new DLC that goes to revise paganism so I do not think its written in the stone that Paganism cannot be revises, which is just what's happening right now with the new dlc .

I did mention that the search functionality is a bit broken at the moment (you can't find anything between early April 2018 and mid-August 2015 when searching the forums, in case you hadn't noticed) and that I thus can't locate more recent dev posts on the subject with ease.

Still, I have provided a dev source for the "Playable Hellenics aren't happening" claim. You have provided zero dev sources supporting the opposite. Until you provide a source (which will have to be more recent than the one I provided, since the most recent dev statement on a subject presumably overrides previous contradictory statements), or the devs speak out in favour of supporting the Hellenics, the facts would not seem to support your position, and I'll take facts over wishful thinking any day.
 
I did mention that the search functionality is a bit broken at the moment (you can't find anything between early April 2018 and mid-August 2015 when searching the forums, in case you hadn't noticed) and that I thus can't locate more recent dev posts on the subject with ease.

Still, I have provided a dev source for the "Playable Hellenics aren't happening" claim. You have provided zero dev sources supporting the opposite. Until you provide a source (which will have to be more recent than the one I provided, since the most recent dev statement on a subject presumably overrides previous contradictory statements), or the devs speak out in favour of supporting the Hellenics, the facts would not seem to support your position, and I'll take facts over wishful thinking any day.
And so what? I don't have to I am requesting a feature in the next paganism revision dlc , you have provided 0 valid reasons for the hellenic religion not be included in the next dlc instead.


I am pretty sure that if I asked the same exact features of the DLC , you and the other opposing any addition to the game would have answered the same way , "this can't be done, Devs don't want, Game doesn't support..." and other lollable sentences.
 
Just take Romuvan Religion and pretend the u and the v aren't there and BOOM: Roman Religion.
Easy Peasy.

Anyhow, I'm pretty hyped to recreate my first semi-Working Empire(Prussian-Romuva-Wendish Empire, ranging from the Baltic Sea to the Mediterranean)
 
And so what? I don't have to I am requesting a feature in the next paganism revision dlc , you have provided 0 valid reasons for the hellenic religion not be included in the next dlc instead.


I am pretty sure that if I asked the same exact features of the DLC , you and the other opposing any addition to the game would have answered the same way , "this can't be done, Devs don't want, Game doesn't support..." and other lollable sentences.

You don't understand it, right? they don't want to work on events and features for Hellenism. You can't compare it to other features. It's not lollable, it logical.
 
And so what? I don't have to I am requesting a feature in the next paganism revision dlc , you have provided 0 valid reasons for the hellenic religion not be included in the next dlc instead.


I am pretty sure that if I asked the same exact features of the DLC , you and the other opposing any addition to the game would have answered the same way , "this can't be done, Devs don't want, Game doesn't support..." and other lollable sentences.

Reasons
1) There are no representative nobles or courtiers for this religion.
2) As your own links show, the Mani peninsula which you claim as the basis for it being on map is a fraction of the county it lies in, and so the province religion should be that of the dominant population - Orthodox, whether iconphile or iconoclast.
3) Even on the Mani peninsula, the religion that you insist as being Hellenic wasn't in sole control of the area, being present in isolated areas of the province.
4) Although likely to be based on it, the religion of the Maniots would not be that of Rome, or that of the larger Greek states.
5) Since the Greek church and state at the time used "Hellene" as we would use "pagan", or "heathen", it may not even have been related to the classical Hellenic faith.

Due to 1, 2, and 3, the religion is insufficiently present to be represented in game.
Due to 4 and 5, it is broadly unlikely that it is the same as the "Hellenic" faith in the history files.

6) There is nothing of use in the game files for it as a playable faith.
7) This means it would need rewriting entirely.
8) All of this will take time for writing, testing, checking, and integrating. Since Hellenic was previously associated with assorted game breaking bugs and crashes, these could resurface.


It isn't a case of opposing any addition to the game.

I'm very much in favour of meaningful additions to the game. However, previous responses from devs have indicated they don't think this *is* meaningful, and that they don't consider a couple of goatherds to be a large enough - or significant enough - population to represent.

My response to what we've seen so far for this coming DLC would have been along the lines of "that's interesting, but I don't know how you'd do it".

If I knew how to do it, I might have made a mod for it... **Just like there are already good mods for a wide variety of non-existent or statistically unrepresentative faiths to be included**.
 
@Tuscany One of my favorite reformation combinations is mixing 'Bloodthirsty Gods’ and ‘Haruspicy'. Being able to sacrifice people to your gods and get rewarded for it is great fun, and when combined with Haruspicy (the art of reading an animal's entrails to predict the future) you can even cut apart your prisoners and see whether you will be lucky in future wars. Of course I pick ‘Temporal’ to allow me to rule over all of this as the conduit between god and man, and ‘Peaceful’ because non-violence is obviously the best strategy.

If there's one thing pacifists are known for, it's gruesome human sacrifice.
 
And so what? I don't have to I am requesting a feature in the next paganism revision dlc , you have provided 0 valid reasons for the hellenic religion not be included in the next dlc instead.

You wanted the devs' position on the matter. I provided the best source for it I could find. It isn't invalidated just because it didn't support your position or because it is old (unless a more recent statement conflicts it; again, provide it, if it exists), and unless the person calling the shots (the Project Lead, most likely, though I suppose we could go higher) overrides the devs, the devs not being willing to/interested in doing something means it won't be done.

As for you supposedly not having to provide a source, unless you provide something considerably more substantial than the equivalent of "But I want Hellenics!" to counter my dev source, you've done nothing to refute the argument that the devs have come out against the idea, which, as mentioned above, means it won't be done without an order from above unless the devs have changed their minds (which, again, I have seen no indication of).

I am pretty sure that if I asked the same exact features of the DLC , you and the other opposing any addition to the game would have answered the same way , "this can't be done, Devs don't want, Game doesn't support..." and other lollable sentences.

I am not opposed to additions to the game in the general sense, and I think that goes for the rest of the people who have been arguing againt adding the Hellenics. There also hasn't been a dev comment (as far as I can recall; if you know of one, share it) in the past along the lines of "Yeah, no, we'll never do anything more about pagan reformations" (or the other features, as far as I can remember), so we'd probably not use the "The devs don't want to" argument there.

Regarding the "This can't be done!"/"The game doesn't support this!" arguments, I, at least, wouldn't have brought that up without the rather major "[...] with the current mechanics we have" caveat. I also haven't brought up any of those arguments here without some elaboration ("This can't be done without also bugfixing the Hellenics, which the devs have said they don't want to do!"/"The game doesn't support playable Hellenics as things currently stand, and the devs have said they aren't interested in supporting them!").


As for "lollable sentences", "I don't have to [provide sources to refute counterarguments because] I am requesting a featur!e" would seem to qualify more than "This dev statement says they aren't going to add the feature you want!".

Pot. Kettle. Black.