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CK2 Dev Diary #88 - A Faith In My Own Image

Greetings!

Bit of a sneaky DevDiary today - this Friday (when we usually post Dev Diaries) is the time for Midsummer celebrations here in Sweden, so we wouldn't be able to answer your questions! Tomorrow we'll be busy eating pickled herring and getting rained on, but today we're here for you!

By now it’s hardly a secret that the two main focuses for the Holy Fury expansion are going to be Catholicism as well as Paganism. Playing as a Catholic is core to the game, with a grounded set of rules for you to adhere to (and abuse). Playing a Pagan, in contrast, is a more visceral and instantly gratifying experience - with a strong emphasis on dynamism compared to the more rigid christian faiths. Before going any further, it’s worth noting that the Pagan religious group will be unlocked and playable with Holy Fury.

With Holy Fury, reforming a Pagan faith is no longer a one-click type of deal. Instead you’ll be able to tailor the new religion to become exactly what you want it to be through the new Reformation interface:
ReformationDD_ReformView.png


You will be able to open and preview this screen at any point while playing an unreformed pagan, allowing you to plan ahead what type of features you want to pick. We’ve also taken this opportunity to make the Bön religion reformable, to provide equal opportunity to the eastern Pagans.
ReformationDD_FeaturePicker.png


There are three different types of ‘slots’ to be filled in, the Nature, Doctrine and Leadership of the religion. The default selection will be thematically chosen depending on what faith you’re reforming - though there’s nothing stopping you from picking wildly divergent features, such as a Pacifistic Nature for the Germanic religion.

While most features will be available to all pagan religions, they will all have one unique doctrine that only they can pick. This is to enhance the differences between the various unreformed pagan faiths. The Germanic special feature will, for example, contain Seafaring and Prepared Invasions - something the other religions must spend two doctrine slots to get.

The possibilities with reformation are near endless, you’ll be able to make a religion that suits your specific needs. For example, if you’re surrounded by other religions (very common if playing Zun or Bön for example) the Cosmopolitan Nature would be advised, as then you can intermarry with your neighbors to create non-aggression pacts. If you’re tired of the Abrahamic religions and their incessant Crusades, you can adopt a Warmongering Nature combined with a Bloodthirsty Gods doctrine to really show them what you think of their weak rituals.

As there’s too many features for us to bring up right now, I’ll save them for a future Dev Diary. Worth noting is that several of the Doctrines you can choose will contain special events and decisions tied to them, so even if you’ve already played a game once where you reform a Pagan faith - you might just want to play another one, to see what could have been different.

To round off, here’s a few of our favorite reformation setups from us in the Dev Team:

ReformationDD_ReformViewRageair.png

Starting off with my own choice, I’m all about creating chaos - and there’s no greater way to achieve that than to promote not only close-kin marriage, but also harems on top of that! Once during a multiplayer with the Dev Team I managed to reform the religion most of us was playing into something similar to this. They were confused when their children started marrying each other, to say the least!

ReformationDD_ReformViewSnowcrystal.png

@Snow Crystal I like playing tall, so I like boosts that let me control who the Heir is, as well as making sure the heir is as popular as possible. I can't stand having a Religious Head that tells me what to do, and think Autocephalous is pretty cool. I don't really care about spreading my faith outside of my borders - if anything, I’d prefer everything outside my borders to be heathenous, so that I get more of a challenge!

ReformationDD_ReformViewSilfae.jpg

@Silfae Usually upon reforming, my dynasty ends up alone against a world of infidels. The quickest way to spread the faith when in those circumstances is through military action, hence the need for a Warmongering Nature. Picking the Astrology Doctrine unlocks the Zodiac traits for my characters, giving them various attribute boosts, while Haruspicy can help me influence the morale of my armies (for better or worse). Furthermore, since Astrology and Haruspicy are synergistic Doctrines, by combining them I gain access to additional perks that would have otherwise been out of reach for me... as well as ending up with an extremely superstitious religion.

ReformationDD-CJ.JPG

@Tuscany One of my favorite reformation combinations is mixing 'Bloodthirsty Gods’ and ‘Haruspicy'. Being able to sacrifice people to your gods and get rewarded for it is great fun, and when combined with Haruspicy (the art of reading an animal's entrails to predict the future) you can even cut apart your prisoners and see whether you will be lucky in future wars. Of course I pick ‘Temporal’ to allow me to rule over all of this as the conduit between god and man, and ‘Peaceful’ because non-violence is obviously the best strategy.
 
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It is hardly about desires, it is about preservation of knowledge about rites. And Hellenic faith is pretty well documented. Whether you like it or not, paganism is alive and kicking even nowadays, only in small communities and mostly blended into some forms of New Age.

It's more reanimated than alive. And yes, we have a lot of documentations about it, just as we have a lot of documentations about dinosaurs.
 
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The problem with this topic is that it is heavily biased. It is like some people agreed in their own company that an ancient religion, semi existing in the game, is a bad idea and so objectivity is being usurped. It is like the China all over again. Some people want it, some people get angry that the topic is being discussed. So, guess what, dont discuss it. Prometheus_1 comes with his idea, encounters no interest from neither side, the topic goes dead. You guys have only yourselves to blame. If you believe the topic shouldnt be discussed, dont discuss it first instead of trying to shut the mouths different-minded people.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't mind having a discussion about the Hellenics if someone brings it up (though I rather doubt the discussion will result in them being added to the game), and I am not "trying to shut the mouths of different-minded people". I am trying to provide arguments for the addition of the Hellenics being unlikely at best, however, and I'd say going "You're just being opposed to it for the sake of opposing it!"/"Your argument [that the devs have spoken out against supporting the Hellenics] doesn't matter/makes no sense!"/etc. instead of trying to acutally provide counterarguments to my arguments (and the arguments raised by others who've argued against the Hellenics in various ways) is "trying to shut the mouths of different-minded people".

Respect goes both ways, and to have a discussion implies discussing the matter at hand and the arguments (from either side) arising during the discussion, not that the first speaker's position on the matter is sacrosanct and that only assent or silence is allowed from the opposition.
 
So. People in remote, Alpine mountain villages made food sacrifices to Frau Perchta until the 19th century. Does that mean Tirol should be given a newly implemented Germanic-Celtic Pagan religion in all of the start dates? O have a chance to have some woodswoman show up at the court of whoever holds it and give them an opportunity to, for whatever reason, convert to it?
 
Yeah, Ancient Religions mod is great and I am definitely looking forward to try it after it is going to be made compatible with Holy Fury.

The problem with this topic is that it is heavily biased. It is like some people agreed in their own company that an ancient religion, semi existing in the game, is a bad idea and so objectivity is being usurped. It is like the China all over again. Some people want it, some people get angry that the topic is being discussed. So, guess what, dont discuss it. Prometheus_1 comes with his idea, encounters no interest from neither side, the topic goes dead. You guys have only yourselves to blame. If you believe the topic shouldnt be discussed, dont discuss it first instead of trying to shut the mouths different-minded people.

While I appreciate that you think I'm just wandering around looking for opinions to shut up, the fact of the matter is this rubbish about the Mani peninsula has been brought up over and over again. If it's ignored they'll simply scream louder. We provided evidence that it was irrelevant in the game only for you and Prometheus_1 to go "Yeah.. but.. but what if we added Hellenic Paganism..."

The pro-Hellenism people have been running in circles and are the physical manifestation of whataboutism.

Anti-Hellenics: "The dev's said they wouldn't expand upon Hellenism, and even reiterated this point a few weeks ago."

Pro-Hellenics: "SHOW PROOF!"

Anti-Hellenics: *shows proof*

Pro-Hellenics: "WHAT ABOUT MANI PENINSULA!!!11!!11"
 
'Paganism' nowadays is of a revivalist kind: they do, of course, claim a direct continuation from past religious systems, but of course they would do that. It does not mean that there has been some sort of secret small communities carrying a religious tradition in a continuous chain of transmission. This is a typical argument in all revivalist circles, but in almost all cases easy to disprove while impossible to prove. In the case of ancient Greco-Roman cults, such a transmission is particularly unlikely, since these cults were public, communal, and generally civic-minded. For the worship of the Olympian gods, one needed a sedentary, preferably urban community with sanctuaries and common myths. The popular religiosity related to it, on the other hand, had such tenuous theology associated with it, that there was in many ways nothing to transmit. Not surprisingly, worship of natural sites, nymphs, rivers, and a few local heroes was much more typical to Greco-Roman popular religiosity; the urban elites would hardly have recognised this as belonging to the same praxis.
Yeah, sure, but the discontinuity hardly matters here. The faith, any faith really, CAN be revived. In this particular case it has been proven in reality quite recently.
I agree that continuation of a faith requires a community because religion is mostly about providing uniformity to a society. However, given enough authority you can take any society and introduce it to any set of rules.

I don't think there's any attempt at shutting people's mouths, really. But there may be a bit of frustration around in how difficult it is to try and make a repeatedly-made point stick. There's awfully lot of repeated assertions of 'historically proven' Maniot Hellenism being bandied about, when in fact it has not been historically proven.
There is always tension when an individual tends to have a different point of view than the majority. Have you seen 12 Angry Men? A brilliant movie about this kind of dynamics.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't mind having a discussion about the Hellenics if someone brings it up (though I rather doubt the discussion will result in them being added to the game), and I am not "trying to shut the mouths of different-minded people". I am trying to provide arguments for the addition of the Hellenics being unlikely at best, however, and I'd say going "You're just being opposed to it for the sake of opposing it!"/"Your argument [that the devs have spoken out against supporting the Hellenics] doesn't matter/makes no sense!"/etc. instead of trying to acutally provide counterarguments to my arguments (and the arguments raised by others who've argued against the Hellenics in various ways) is "trying to shut the mouths of different-minded people".
Well, there is only one argument for adding playable Hellenists - diversity of playthroughs, or simply speaking: fun. They are half way into the game, Holy Fury provides very interesting opportunities of reforming faiths, so yeah - it is closer than ever at this point. The Hellenist faction is relatively small on the forum but so are their demands.
However, I myself would prefer blessing heresies with the Holy Fury reformation mechanics.

Respect goes both ways, and to have a discussion implies discussing the matter at hand and the arguments (from either side) arising during the discussion, not that the first speaker's position on the matter is sacrosanct and that only assent or silence is allowed from the opposition.
Sure. It is only that people by default treat each other like A-holes, not this forum specifically, and in certain circumstances emotions arise to the point when it is hard to be polite to each other. The CK2 forum is so far the most polite I have seen EVER, though. Sometimes it takes only as much as a peek into the EU or Stellaris forum to see the difference.
And sometimes those people come here talking about dinosaurs :)

So. People in remote, Alpine mountain villages made food sacrifices to Frau Perchta until the 19th century. Does that mean Tirol should be given a newly implemented Germanic-Celtic Pagan religion in all of the start dates? O have a chance to have some woodswoman show up at the court of whoever holds it and give them an opportunity to, for whatever reason, convert to it?
Well, given a certain number of people willing to try a scenario like that, sure. Adjusting start dates would be, of course, a waste of time but implementing some events giving a possibility to convert is at least as justified as adding the Aztecs invasion.

While I appreciate that you think I'm just wandering around looking for opinions to shut up, the fact of the matter is this rubbish about the Mani peninsula has been brought up over and over again. If it's ignored they'll simply scream louder. We provided evidence that it was irrelevant in the game only for you and Prometheus_1 to go "Yeah.. but.. but what if we added Hellenic Paganism..."

The pro-Hellenism people have been running in circles and are the physical manifestation of whataboutism.

Anti-Hellenics: "The dev's said they wouldn't expand upon Hellenism, and even reiterated this point a few weeks ago."

Pro-Hellenics: "SHOW PROOF!"

Anti-Hellenics: *shows proof*

Pro-Hellenics: "WHAT ABOUT MANI PENINSULA!!!11!!11"
Well, adding Hellenists should be considered as a semi-fantasy opportunity. We all know that the religion was as good as dead.
My bet is that if you guys wont push so hard for providing historical evidence (in a matter that doesnt really require that), you wouldnt hear about the Mani as often.
Also, it is not like there is much to back the stand of not implementing the Hellenists. It cant be, really.
 
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I have the feeling that the discussion about the hellenistic faith has had enought room in this discussion about the expansion. It would be nice if you want to discuss it further to do it in a seperate topic that people can ignore if they are not interested in this discussion, which I have a fealing are quite a lot of people. Also after having a look at the discussion it feels like everything in arguments was brought to the table on both sides and the oppinions are deep entrenched so further discussion seems to not bring any productive result. Exept that you can agree to disagree.
 
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This is one of the combinations I've had a lot of fun with, it gives you the ability to expand both by sending missionaries to convert others as well as by declaring a Great Holy War as the religions head.
And on top of that you can keep open who is valid for your succession and specifically decide which out of any of your children has the right to inherit your glorious realm.
 
View attachment 384016

This is one of the combinations I've had a lot of fun with, it gives you the ability to expand both by sending missionaries to convert others as well as by declaring a Great Holy War as the religions head.
And on top of that you can keep open who is valid for your succession and specifically decide which out of any of your children has the right to inherit your glorious realm.
Ooooh, shiny!

So Proselytizing means you can send missionaries, Meritocracy gives the ability to choose heirs, Equality puts in default absolute cognatic, and Temporal Leadership is like the Fylkir or Caliph in the current game?
 
View attachment 384016

This is one of the combinations I've had a lot of fun with, it gives you the ability to expand both by sending missionaries to convert others as well as by declaring a Great Holy War as the religions head.
And on top of that you can keep open who is valid for your succession and specifically decide which out of any of your children has the right to inherit your glorious realm.
Nice.

Is there any chance to get a more full list of natures and doctrines?
 
Now that would just be spoiling it all ;)
Eh.
I have to try...

On a different note, there was a discussion I was in about whether changing a religion to be (broadly) monotheist, dualist, or polytheist as part of a reformation, and having this in the reformation screen would be worthwhile. Is this a possibility (as it has no real rule impact for most purposes)?

Is naming the religion during the reformation possible?
 
Nice.

Is there any chance to get a more full list of natures and doctrines?
For natures, I see:
Proselytizing
Unyielding
Cosmopolitan
Warmongering
Peaceful
Dogmatic

For doctrines:
Survivors of Ukko
Astrology
Divine Marriage
Polygamy
Meritocracy
Equality
Stability
Haruspicy
Bloodthirsty Gods

I'm going to bet there are also 5 more "unique" doctrines (I count 6 unreformed pagan religions and assume Survivors of Ukko is a unique one. Didn't we see a "sons of perun" or something in a different place?). That leaves us with 1 to 4 more general ones.
 
I just noticed there's a randomizing button...that's going to result in some real bizarre contradictory cobbling-together of various ill-suited ideologies into a single Frankensteinian whole (sort of like real-life religion).
 
I just noticed there's a randomizing button...that's going to result in some real bizarre contradictory cobbling-together of various ill-suited ideologies into a single Frankensteinian whole (sort of like real-life religion).
You randomised it, see if you like the look of it, and then tweak it.
 
You randomised it, see if you like the look of it, and then tweak it.

I just think it might be fun to hit randomize once and then go with whatever crazy messed-up religion it generates. Adds some spice to life! And that spice is Bloodthirsty Meritocracy! "How many sacrifices can you make to satiate almighty Perkele? Winner gets to be the next God-King, any takers?"
 
View attachment 384016

This is one of the combinations I've had a lot of fun with, it gives you the ability to expand both by sending missionaries to convert others as well as by declaring a Great Holy War as the religions head.
And on top of that you can keep open who is valid for your succession and specifically decide which out of any of your children has the right to inherit your glorious realm.


Oooooh "Equality" :D