• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

CK2 Dev Diary #88 - A Faith In My Own Image

Greetings!

Bit of a sneaky DevDiary today - this Friday (when we usually post Dev Diaries) is the time for Midsummer celebrations here in Sweden, so we wouldn't be able to answer your questions! Tomorrow we'll be busy eating pickled herring and getting rained on, but today we're here for you!

By now it’s hardly a secret that the two main focuses for the Holy Fury expansion are going to be Catholicism as well as Paganism. Playing as a Catholic is core to the game, with a grounded set of rules for you to adhere to (and abuse). Playing a Pagan, in contrast, is a more visceral and instantly gratifying experience - with a strong emphasis on dynamism compared to the more rigid christian faiths. Before going any further, it’s worth noting that the Pagan religious group will be unlocked and playable with Holy Fury.

With Holy Fury, reforming a Pagan faith is no longer a one-click type of deal. Instead you’ll be able to tailor the new religion to become exactly what you want it to be through the new Reformation interface:
ReformationDD_ReformView.png


You will be able to open and preview this screen at any point while playing an unreformed pagan, allowing you to plan ahead what type of features you want to pick. We’ve also taken this opportunity to make the Bön religion reformable, to provide equal opportunity to the eastern Pagans.
ReformationDD_FeaturePicker.png


There are three different types of ‘slots’ to be filled in, the Nature, Doctrine and Leadership of the religion. The default selection will be thematically chosen depending on what faith you’re reforming - though there’s nothing stopping you from picking wildly divergent features, such as a Pacifistic Nature for the Germanic religion.

While most features will be available to all pagan religions, they will all have one unique doctrine that only they can pick. This is to enhance the differences between the various unreformed pagan faiths. The Germanic special feature will, for example, contain Seafaring and Prepared Invasions - something the other religions must spend two doctrine slots to get.

The possibilities with reformation are near endless, you’ll be able to make a religion that suits your specific needs. For example, if you’re surrounded by other religions (very common if playing Zun or Bön for example) the Cosmopolitan Nature would be advised, as then you can intermarry with your neighbors to create non-aggression pacts. If you’re tired of the Abrahamic religions and their incessant Crusades, you can adopt a Warmongering Nature combined with a Bloodthirsty Gods doctrine to really show them what you think of their weak rituals.

As there’s too many features for us to bring up right now, I’ll save them for a future Dev Diary. Worth noting is that several of the Doctrines you can choose will contain special events and decisions tied to them, so even if you’ve already played a game once where you reform a Pagan faith - you might just want to play another one, to see what could have been different.

To round off, here’s a few of our favorite reformation setups from us in the Dev Team:

ReformationDD_ReformViewRageair.png

Starting off with my own choice, I’m all about creating chaos - and there’s no greater way to achieve that than to promote not only close-kin marriage, but also harems on top of that! Once during a multiplayer with the Dev Team I managed to reform the religion most of us was playing into something similar to this. They were confused when their children started marrying each other, to say the least!

ReformationDD_ReformViewSnowcrystal.png

@Snow Crystal I like playing tall, so I like boosts that let me control who the Heir is, as well as making sure the heir is as popular as possible. I can't stand having a Religious Head that tells me what to do, and think Autocephalous is pretty cool. I don't really care about spreading my faith outside of my borders - if anything, I’d prefer everything outside my borders to be heathenous, so that I get more of a challenge!

ReformationDD_ReformViewSilfae.jpg

@Silfae Usually upon reforming, my dynasty ends up alone against a world of infidels. The quickest way to spread the faith when in those circumstances is through military action, hence the need for a Warmongering Nature. Picking the Astrology Doctrine unlocks the Zodiac traits for my characters, giving them various attribute boosts, while Haruspicy can help me influence the morale of my armies (for better or worse). Furthermore, since Astrology and Haruspicy are synergistic Doctrines, by combining them I gain access to additional perks that would have otherwise been out of reach for me... as well as ending up with an extremely superstitious religion.

ReformationDD-CJ.JPG

@Tuscany One of my favorite reformation combinations is mixing 'Bloodthirsty Gods’ and ‘Haruspicy'. Being able to sacrifice people to your gods and get rewarded for it is great fun, and when combined with Haruspicy (the art of reading an animal's entrails to predict the future) you can even cut apart your prisoners and see whether you will be lucky in future wars. Of course I pick ‘Temporal’ to allow me to rule over all of this as the conduit between god and man, and ‘Peaceful’ because non-violence is obviously the best strategy.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Well i could imagine "Brotherhood" might be the name of a new Religious Order or Society :D

Liberty meanwhile... This is feudalism, my friend, or an Aristocratic Republic, we'll have none of that "Liberty" stuff here :-|

A different concept of liberty. No liberty for theasses. Liberty for noblemen. They are free in their domaine and are not fond of central government.

Also some might say burghers of some cities were free.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtluft_macht_frei
 
A different concept of liberty. No liberty for theasses. Liberty for noblemen. They are free in their domaine and are not fond of central government.

Also some might say burghers of some cities were free.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtluft_macht_frei

I know, I was making a joke ;) My suggestion of a Religious Order/Society just called "Brotherhood" wasn't serious either...

You know as in "Liberty? We better get rid of that right away before the peasants get funny ideas..."
 
I know, I was making a joke ;) My suggestion of a Religious Order/Society just called "Brotherhood" wasn't serious either...

You know as in "Liberty? We better get rid of that right away before the peasants get funny ideas..."
Or just point out to them that whilst they're free to leave, that also makes them free to starve, freeze, or get eaten by wolves.

If they can find unclaimed land they're free to set up there, and free to defend themselves against bandits, fire, and wild animals....

Or they could pay a small amount in taxes to someone who is then free to arrange protection against these threats. ;)

And thus "feudalism"...
 
I'm slowly starting to wonder whether 2 doctrines will be enough to make a reasonably complex faith. It seems the current/standard ones might have more? (depending on how complex the doctrines are, that is)
Hopefully it will be possible to mod it up to 3 or something.
 
I know, I was making a joke ;) My suggestion of a Religious Order/Society just called "Brotherhood" wasn't serious either...

You know as in "Liberty? We better get rid of that right away before the peasants get funny ideas..."

I’m many, I’m peasant, I’m not funny, I don’t get humer ;)
 
Greetings!

Bit of a sneaky DevDiary today - this Friday (when we usually post Dev Diaries) is the time for Midsummer celebrations here in Sweden, so we wouldn't be able to answer your questions! Tomorrow we'll be busy eating pickled herring and getting rained on, but today we're here for you!

By now it’s hardly a secret that the two main focuses for the Holy Fury expansion are going to be Catholicism as well as Paganism. Playing as a Catholic is core to the game, with a grounded set of rules for you to adhere to (and abuse). Playing a Pagan, in contrast, is a more visceral and instantly gratifying experience - with a strong emphasis on dynamism compared to the more rigid christian faiths. Before going any further, it’s worth noting that the Pagan religious group will be unlocked and playable with Holy Fury.

With Holy Fury, reforming a Pagan faith is no longer a one-click type of deal. Instead you’ll be able to tailor the new religion to become exactly what you want it to be through the new Reformation interface:
View attachment 381841

You will be able to open and preview this screen at any point while playing an unreformed pagan, allowing you to plan ahead what type of features you want to pick. We’ve also taken this opportunity to make the Bön religion reformable, to provide equal opportunity to the eastern Pagans.
View attachment 381840

There are three different types of ‘slots’ to be filled in, the Nature, Doctrine and Leadership of the religion. The default selection will be thematically chosen depending on what faith you’re reforming - though there’s nothing stopping you from picking wildly divergent features, such as a Pacifistic Nature for the Germanic religion.

While most features will be available to all pagan religions, they will all have one unique doctrine that only they can pick. This is to enhance the differences between the various unreformed pagan faiths. The Germanic special feature will, for example, contain Seafaring and Prepared Invasions - something the other religions must spend two doctrine slots to get.

The possibilities with reformation are near endless, you’ll be able to make a religion that suits your specific needs. For example, if you’re surrounded by other religions (very common if playing Zun or Bön for example) the Cosmopolitan Nature would be advised, as then you can intermarry with your neighbors to create non-aggression pacts. If you’re tired of the Abrahamic religions and their incessant Crusades, you can adopt a Warmongering Nature combined with a Bloodthirsty Gods doctrine to really show them what you think of their weak rituals.

As there’s too many features for us to bring up right now, I’ll save them for a future Dev Diary. Worth noting is that several of the Doctrines you can choose will contain special events and decisions tied to them, so even if you’ve already played a game once where you reform a Pagan faith - you might just want to play another one, to see what could have been different.

To round off, here’s a few of our favorite reformation setups from us in the Dev Team:

View attachment 381844
Starting off with my own choice, I’m all about creating chaos - and there’s no greater way to achieve that than to promote not only close-kin marriage, but also harems on top of that! Once during a multiplayer with the Dev Team I managed to reform the religion most of us was playing into something similar to this. They were confused when their children started marrying each other, to say the least!

View attachment 381843
@Snow Crystal I like playing tall, so I like boosts that let me control who the Heir is, as well as making sure the heir is as popular as possible. I can't stand having a Religious Head that tells me what to do, and think Autocephalous is pretty cool. I don't really care about spreading my faith outside of my borders - if anything, I’d prefer everything outside my borders to be heathenous, so that I get more of a challenge!

View attachment 381839
@Silfae Usually upon reforming, my dynasty ends up alone against a world of infidels. The quickest way to spread the faith when in those circumstances is through military action, hence the need for a Warmongering Nature. Picking the Astrology Doctrine unlocks the Zodiac traits for my characters, giving them various attribute boosts, while Haruspicy can help me influence the morale of my armies (for better or worse). Furthermore, since Astrology and Haruspicy are synergistic Doctrines, by combining them I gain access to additional perks that would have otherwise been out of reach for me... as well as ending up with an extremely superstitious religion.

View attachment 381842
@Tuscany One of my favorite reformation combinations is mixing 'Bloodthirsty Gods’ and ‘Haruspicy'. Being able to sacrifice people to your gods and get rewarded for it is great fun, and when combined with Haruspicy (the art of reading an animal's entrails to predict the future) you can even cut apart your prisoners and see whether you will be lucky in future wars. Of course I pick ‘Temporal’ to allow me to rule over all of this as the conduit between god and man, and ‘Peaceful’ because non-violence is obviously the best strategy.
What about same-sex stuff? Will we be able to allow homosexuality as a non-taboo or not?
 
That's an interesting thought. Among several altaic cultures (the xiongu in particular), same-sex relationships, among men, at least, were regarded more or less as normal. To a degree, the Chinese peoples looked them in the same way.

With the Indo-Europeans (Slavics, Germans, Baltics) the thing is much more tricky. It's recorded that several Germanic tribes practiced homosexuality. The Herules are the most notorious, as the Roman writings record that their men usually had same-sex coitus (and sex with male animals, though this is debated) with much more frequency than with their women.

Citing Procopius:

"They are still, however, faithless toward them [the Romans], and since they are given to avarice, they are eager to do violence to their neighbours, feeling no shame at such conduct. And they mate in an unholy manner, especially men with asses, and they are the basest of all men and utterly abandoned rascals."

So a same-sex thing would have more sense in a Pagan european, religion than in a Christian one. Still, Byzantines had their Adelphopoieses, despite this being nominally a siblinghood union.
 
A very important question for me regarding Pagan Reformation:
Are the prerequisites to reform the same as before?

It is totally boring to conquer all of scandinavia over and over again every time you play a norse.... And makes it almost impossible to stay norse successfully as Jorvik.

I don't think that the new mechanics alone make that part of the game any more interesting.
 
A very important question for me regarding Pagan Reformation:
Are the prerequisites to reform the same as before?

It is totally boring to conquer all of scandinavia over and over again every time you play a norse.... And makes it almost impossible to stay norse successfully as Jorvik.

I don't think that the new mechanics alone make that part of the game any more interesting.

I agree that having to conquer a whole chunk of Scandinavia just to reform is a pain in the neck. I always regard that part as the "unpleasant prelude" to the proper game that starts when I conquer England (or some other place) as a reformed Norse.
However what I like to do afterwards is granting the Scandinavian Kingdoms independence under second/third/fourth/fifth etc born sons that way you isntantly get some Pagan countries to interact with.
 
I agree that having to conquer a whole chunk of Scandinavia just to reform is a pain in the neck. I always regard that part as the "unpleasant prelude" to the proper game that starts when I conquer England (or some other place) as a reformed Norse.
However what I like to do afterwards is granting the Scandinavian Kingdoms independence under second/third/fourth/fifth etc born sons that way you isntantly get some Pagan countries to interact with.
I mean really you just play as the Jorviks and just use your event troops to snipe the single-counties that require reformation. You need what, three? All three of them are county provinces on the coast, and you get a free CB to do so.
 
I mean really you just play as the Jorviks and just use your event troops to snipe the single-counties that require reformation. You need what, three? All three of them are county provinces on the coast, and you get a free CB to do so.
You don't get a CB. Only CB you have is Subjugate. Once per Lifetime. So you would need 3 generations. As Svipjod, Denmark or Norgre it's somewhat more easy, but as Viking in England it's quiet a pain.
Especially since AI loves to go Christian, you have to be really fast to conquer enough sites before MR is screwed, while you also expand your base in England and fight off revolt after revolt... I mean, i love playing vikings, but atm, it's the same game again and again. A more flexible way to reform would be nice to stop that railroading...
 
So far if I have this right its

Nature: Peaceful, Unyielding, Cosmopolitan, Warmongering, Dogmatic, Proselytizing
Doctrine: Bloodthirsty Gods, Astrology, Haruspicy, Stability, Meritocracy, Divine Marriage, Polygamy
Leadership: Autocephalous, Temporal, Hieorcratic

Now i really want to know the differences between each category. So much modding potential...the few conversion mods Ive tried all had religion that were barebones and badly need some content to set themselves apart. This couldnt have come at a better time.
 
So far if I have this right its

Nature: Peaceful, Unyielding, Cosmopolitan, Warmongering, Dogmatic, Proselytizing
Doctrine: Bloodthirsty Gods, Astrology, Haruspicy, Stability, Meritocracy, Divine Marriage, Polygamy
Leadership: Autocephalous, Temporal, Hieorcratic

Now i really want to know the differences between each category. So much modding potential...the few conversion mods Ive tried all had religion that were barebones and badly need some content to set themselves apart. This couldnt have come at a better time.

A lot more than that have been seen since this Dev Diary was released. Snow Crystal has been nice enough to show off some of them now and again.

You can see the whole list here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/holy-fury-reformation-doctrine-list.1115209/
 
What about same-sex stuff? Will we be able to allow homosexuality as a non-taboo or not?

I think a fun addition would be a doctrine that allows same-sex marriage not as we understand it, but a political version. Some kind of arrangement that allows 2 men (or women) to tie together their holding (since this is a dynastic game, there should be some way for the marriage to produce an heir). Maybe the marriage allows an adopted heir to inherit. Or thinking more outside the box, 2 men could share a wife and thus the paternity of the kids would be unknown.

There’s actually a lot of potential for fun game mechanics. It’d require some work, so I don’t blame the devs for not just popping it in. But as a reformed pagan mechanic, it’d be cool if they added it.
 
However what I like to do afterwards is granting the Scandinavian Kingdoms independence under second/third/fourth/fifth etc born sons that way you isntantly get some Pagan countries to interact with.

This sort of thing always makes me wish you could play as one of your other heirs under gavelkind, just to destroy the empire you just built.
 
This sort of thing always makes me wish you could play as one of your other heirs under gavelkind, just to destroy the empire you just built.
+

Well, that's why I don't create the EMpirre of Scandinavia at that point. I just stay as the Super-King of "Sweden" while actually owning Sweden, Norway, Denmark and, depending on the playthrough Finnland and Nordarike.
Then, after I've reformed and went Feudal, I use the combined power of that super-kingdom to conquer enough of England to create k_england. I make England my primary title and only now I create the various Scandinavian kingdoms and portion them off to my sons.

It's always fun to see how my danasty fares in those places. I remember one playthrough where the Finnish branch just kept dying out and k_Finnland defaulted back to the main line again and again and again. Sweden was immediately lost to elective and I think by the end Norway was the only scandinavian kingdom with my dynasty left and that only after several revolutions where they lost and regained the throne.
It was fun.