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Well people, what do you know? I needed a break from the Stellaris crunch, so here’s an unscheduled dev diary! All the hubbub about Defensive Pacts and Shattered Retreats got me thinking about an old ambition I’ve had to improve the game set-up screens in order to allow players to customize their experience without having to resort to modding. The idea is inspired by games like Civilization and the Second Wave DLC for XCOM: Enemy Unknown, which allow players to change various advanced options and settings for a different experience in the game. I really like such options and typically make good use of them myself.
Now, of course there is such a thing as “the way the game was meant to be played”. That is, how the designers made the game and like to play it themselves. However, variety is the spice of life, and after 11 Crusader Kings II expansions things are not as clear-cut anymore. It’s actually pretty funny that I’ve been using a small personal mod for CK2 for awhile myself. There are some downsides to modding and using mods though:
It requires awareness that it’s possible, and where to find existing mods. The modding scene is a jungle.
It takes a modicum of extra effort and skill.
It might not feel quite legitimate (it can feel a bit like cheating) and you might not get any Achievements.
Mods typically do not have the same level of support as the base game. Many become fossilized or are otherwise problematic.
For these reasons especially, I think that adding a bunch of Paradox-approved, fully supported in-game rule variations is a good idea. Thus, when you start a new game, you are now presented with several interesting options. Most of them are simple flavor variations, but some are more fundamental and will disable Achievements in Ironman mode. Here’s the list of options we are currently showing in the new screen (still a work in progress though):
Sandbox vs Ironman
Shattered Retreats: On/Off
Defensive Pacts: On/Off
Gender Equality: Default/Historical/All/Players
Sunset Invasion: 13th Century/Random/Off
Mongol Invasion: Historical/Random/Off
Raiding: Historical/Unrestricted/None
Epidemics: Dynamic/Historical/Deadly
“Supernatural” Events: On/Off
Adventurers: Normal/Rare/None
Provincial Revolts: Normal/Rare/None
Regencies: On/Off
De Jure Drift: Default/Restricted/Off
Dynamic Kingdoms and Empires: On/Off
Diplomatic Range: On/Off
Red options disable Achievements.
Our new rule system is itself fully moddable, so that modders can use the same system with pretty much any options they might want!
I look forward to your thoughts and comments. Are there any rule variations you think we’ve missed, or that you would really like to see?
I was thinking about the game difficulty and think that it would be nice to have a rule determining characters (especially the player's) vitality. The rulers reaching their 80s more easily suit test/learning campaigns as well as some rpg approaches to the game.
E.g:
Global lifespan:
short (40/50) / normal / longer (80+)
Or that could be restricted only to player's character to create some crazy outcomes (think of gavelkind)
Another thing I was thinking about (and excuse me if that has been already proposed) is to enable counties de jure drifting. So
Drifting:
only kingdoms / kingdoms and duchies / kingdoms, duchies and counties
I think drifting counties could add tremendously to the variety of each gameplay. That could be extended to baronies as well but that would be extreme.
Well people, what do you know? I needed a break from the Stellaris crunch, so here’s an unscheduled dev diary! All the hubbub about Defensive Pacts and Shattered Retreats got me thinking about an old ambition I’ve had to improve the game set-up screens in order to allow players to customize their experience without having to resort to modding. The idea is inspired by games like Civilization and the Second Wave DLC for XCOM: Enemy Unknown, which allow players to change various advanced options and settings for a different experience in the game. I really like such options and typically make good use of them myself.
Now, of course there is such a thing as “the way the game was meant to be played”. That is, how the designers made the game and like to play it themselves. However, variety is the spice of life, and after 11 Crusader Kings II expansions things are not as clear-cut anymore. It’s actually pretty funny that I’ve been using a small personal mod for CK2 for awhile myself. There are some downsides to modding and using mods though:
It requires awareness that it’s possible, and where to find existing mods. The modding scene is a jungle.
It takes a modicum of extra effort and skill.
It might not feel quite legitimate (it can feel a bit like cheating) and you might not get any Achievements.
Mods typically do not have the same level of support as the base game. Many become fossilized or are otherwise problematic.
For these reasons especially, I think that adding a bunch of Paradox-approved, fully supported in-game rule variations is a good idea. Thus, when you start a new game, you are now presented with several interesting options. Most of them are simple flavor variations, but some are more fundamental and will disable Achievements in Ironman mode. Here’s the list of options we are currently showing in the new screen (still a work in progress though):
I suggested something analogous to this years ago for EU4, but nobody really commented (my miscommunication I guess). The way to supercharge this is to effectively make it possible for anyone to mod easily and safely. Forgive the presumption but I suggest:
1. Initially (for simplicity and safety) base it purely on moddability. Put "everything" nominally moddable into options submenus (not too onerous if you build in rigorous automated metadata-driven data quality - if you want an example send me a private email and I'll forward a sample bit of Java code showing some simple ways this can be done). Again for simplicity, one submenu per modabble file.
2. Make sure (for QA and for speed) that the mod/options menus are completely decoupled from the rest of the game (ie present at the beginning before game files are loaded), or even issued standalone.
3. Ensure (via your metadata) that numerical option choices are constrained so as, in effect, not to obviously "break" the game. Anything wishing to mod beyond that can, well, mod.
4. The results of the options choices are then written directly to what are now, in effect, modded files and the system then loads exactly as normal. Equally this can be built into standalone "modder" applications.
5. Modders would not be "out of a job", as it were: instead their work would be enhanced and facilitated; they could work faster and with much less danger of breaking anything.
6. The beauty of this approach is you effectively build a "metadata quality" API that can be reused not only across your entire product inventory, but also extended to other corporate IT functions (data import/export) if you're so inclined.
Please let us turn off Defensive pacts in iron-man mode or at least change threat so that it goes faster I love Iron man mode and going for the Achievements but threat takes so much fun out of the game for me.
I don't know if this was suggested before, since I scrolled through 14/27 pages of this thread, and decided not scroll through the last 13/27 pages... but how about an option to turn off the marriage AI for your family/dynasty so that they can't automatically get married without you approving or match making for them if they are a subject of your realm?
Dynasty Planning: Normal / Close Relatives Only / Dynasty / All
Normal would be like how it is right now, where if you send a family member to a different court, or you give them a title, then they can chose who they marry.
Close Relatives could be your immediate family only, such as children, brothers, sisters, first cousins, and uncle/aunts, and first nephews/nieces. If you have a higher title than them, then they can't automatically get married if they are your vassals or in one of your vassals court unless you approve of the marriage request, or make match make for them.
Dynasty would be everyone who has the same dynasty / last name no matter how far off removed they are as long as they hold a lower title than you in your realm.
All would be everyone that even remotely comes from your family... meaning for instance if you married of your daughter to a different dynasty or if you marry a son off matrilineally to a different dynasty in your realm (that you are the top liege of) and they have kids, you would still be able to control who their kids marry.
Also I know it has been suggested before but an option for inbreeding / incest / divine blood.
The idea, even if it makes sense, is just impossible when it comes to have a clear logic behind it.
For instance, you and your first brother are both kings, your second brother is in another country.
Should it be your first brother or you to decide how your second brother should marry ?
And that if you consider only the option of close relative, it's even worse when you go with a Dynaty and All option.
Because if there are 4 kingdoms rules by your dynasty, all with one of those 2 options. Who will be the one to make the decision ?
The idea, even if it makes sense, is just impossible when it comes to have a clear logic behind it.
For instance, you and your first brother are both kings, your second brother is in another country.
Should it be your first brother or you to decide how your second brother should marry ?
And that if you consider only the option of close relative, it's even worse when you go with a Dynaty and All option.
Because if there are 4 kingdoms rules by your dynasty, all with one of those 2 options. Who will be the one to make the decision ?
As I said multiple times (which I have highlighted in green in the quote below) they have to be a subject of your realm and lower title than you. If you and your brother are both Kings, it means that your brother is not in your realm anymore, he has his own realm. If you're an emperor, and he is a king... then you control who he marries given that he is vassal king of your empire, and everyone in your dynasty under him. If it is vice versa, then then you only control who is under you. If he is an independent kingdom, and not part of your empire, then you don't control who marries who in his kingdom.
I don't know if this was suggested before, since I scrolled through 14/27 pages of this thread, and decided not scroll through the last 13/27 pages... but how about an option to turn off the marriage AI for your family/dynasty so that they can't automatically get married without you approving or match making for them if they are a subject of your realm?
Dynasty Planning: Normal / Close Relatives Only / Dynasty / All
Normal would be like how it is right now, where if you send a family member to a different court, or you give them a title, then they can chose who they marry.
Close Relatives could be your immediate family only, such as children, brothers, sisters, first cousins, and uncle/aunts, and first nephews/nieces. If you have a higher title than them, then they can't automatically get married if they are your vassals or in one of your vassals court unless you approve of the marriage request, or make match make for them.
Dynasty would be everyone who has the same dynasty / last name no matter how far off removed they are as long as they hold a lower title than you in your realm.
All would be everyone that even remotely comes from your family... meaning for instance if you married of your daughter to a different dynasty or if you marry a son off matrilineally to a different dynasty in your realm (that you are the top liege of) and they have kids, you would still be able to control who their kids marry.
How this would work is if you're a count, then you can only control people who are in your court. If you're are a duke then you can control everyone who is lower than a duke ranked that is under your vassalage. If you're a king you control everyone that is lower than king ranked that is under your vassalage. Same with emperor, where you control everyone who is part of your empire that has a lower ranked then you. If you are emperor of Britain, and your brother is Emperor of France, you don't control or approve of who marries who in France, only in Britain.
In the case of multiplayer, if one player is lets say a duke in France, and another player is the king of France, and they are both of the same dynasty. Then whenever the duke player tries to arrange a marriage between one of your dynasty members under his control with someone else, then the player who is king gets a pop up asking whether he approves of the marriage or not. If the player who is king arranges a marriage, the duke player has no say in it since he is lower rank. Maybe possibly add in a casus belli for players who disapprove of certain marriages.
As I said multiple times (which I have highlighted in green in the quote below) they have to be a subject of your realm and lower title than you. If you and your brother are both Kings, it means that your brother is not in your realm anymore, he has his own realm. If you're an emperor, and he is a king... then you control who he marries given that he is vassal king of your empire, and everyone in your dynasty under him. If it is vice versa, then then you only control who is under you. If he is an independent kingdom, and not part of your empire, then you don't control who marries who in his kingdom.
How this would work is if you're a count, then you can only control people who are in your court. If you're are a duke then you can control everyone who is lower than a duke ranked that is under your vassalage. If you're a king you control everyone that is lower than king ranked that is under your vassalage. Same with emperor, where you control everyone who is part of your empire that has a lower ranked then you. If you are emperor of Britain, and your brother is Emperor of France, you don't control or approve of who marries who in France, only in Britain.
In the case of multiplayer, if one player is lets say a duke in France, and another player is the king of France, and they are both of the same dynasty. Then whenever the duke player tries to arrange a marriage between one of your dynasty members under his control with someone else, then the player who is king gets a pop up asking whether he approves of the marriage or not. If the player who is king arranges a marriage, the duke player has no say in it since he is lower rank. Maybe possibly add in a casus belli for players who disapprove of certain marriages.
With that last paragraph, enjoy being the duke who can only marry homosexual pox-ridden commoners, or is otherwise screwed with by the more powerful relative.
With that last paragraph, enjoy being the duke who can only marry homosexual pox-ridden commoners, or is otherwise screwed with by the more powerful relative.
I don't know if this was suggested before, since I scrolled through 14/27 pages of this thread, and decided not scroll through the last 13/27 pages... but how about an option to turn off the marriage AI for your family/dynasty so that they can't automatically get married without you approving or match making for them if they are a subject of your realm?
Dynasty Planning: Normal / Close Relatives Only / Dynasty / All
Secondly in multiplayer
1. You have the option to refuse to play with that setting on.
2. Don't marry or play someone who is blood related to another player.
3. As I suggested, add a casus belli in case you're being forced to marry a character that you don't want to marry or having a marriage turned down by your Dynasty head when your potential spouse's lord agrees.
It isn't all that hard to not get screwed over if you put a single bit of time thinking about it. You act like you're forced to play certain characters and have no agency of your own. You can always chose not to play a character that can easily be screwed over. Like someone from a different realm, or different dynasty.
Especially with the fact that any player can play as another player's vassal at the start of the game and get immediately screwed over if they chose to imprison you and execute you immediately.
Also that option teaches you 3 things in the game.
1. How to not make stupid decisions such play someone else underling.
2. If you for some reason make the stupid decision to play as someone else underling, don't play with untrustworthy players who will screw you over.
3. How to "Git Gud"... it adds a a competitive drive between players to dominate their realm and climb the political ladder quicker, otherwise you're at the complete mercy of a more powerful player who is the same dynasty as you since they can essentially destroy your line by refusing to let you marry anyone. (Which is exactly the purpose of the option, to prevent cadet branches.) So learn how to screw the other player over before they screw you over.
Basically I don't think allowing you to influence marriage of landed characters is actually possible. Even your courtiers will do it behind your back.
Forcing actions onto characters is a bad idea, because doing so can open up the use of exploits. For example if it was allowed, you could run gavelkind and force your sons and family members to never marry. Resulting in land always returning to your primary heir. Not to mention if you lost a war to a family member resulting in them becoming your liege. They might just not allow you to marry ever because of dislike.
There is too many ways for this to be exploited, resulting in basically cheating to get what you want. This isn't what rules are for.
Forcing actions onto characters is a bad idea, because doing so can open up the use of exploits. For example if it was allowed, you could run gavelkind and force your sons and family members to never marry. Resulting in land always returning to your primary heir. Not to mention if you lost a war to a family member resulting in them becoming your liege. They might just not allow you to marry ever because of dislike.
There is too many ways for this to be exploited, resulting in basically cheating to get what you want.
1. Its a single player game. So play it the way you want to play it.
2. Its an optional "option", meaning you don't have to play it that way if you don't want.
3. It is basically cheating, which is why you wouldn't get achievements for it. But its no different from any of the other options that disables achievements.
4. If you played this in multiplayer, its perfectly fair since any player can take advantage of it.
Also that is exactly the reason why I am asking for that option. Because I don't want for them to get married.
I think Doomdark would disagree if you read his first post in the thread. And the whole point of this thread was to give players the ability to play the game the way they wanted to without having to rely on third party mods.
Well people, what do you know? I needed a break from the Stellaris crunch, so here’s an unscheduled dev diary! All the hubbub about Defensive Pacts and Shattered Retreats got me thinking about an old ambition I’ve had to improve the game set-up screens in order to allow players to customize their experience without having to resort to modding. The idea is inspired by games like Civilization and the Second Wave DLC for XCOM: Enemy Unknown, which allow players to change various advanced options and settings for a different experience in the game. I really like such options and typically make good use of them myself.
Now, of course there is such a thing as “the way the game was meant to be played”. That is, how the designers made the game and like to play it themselves. However, variety is the spice of life, and after 11 Crusader Kings II expansions things are not as clear-cut anymore. It’s actually pretty funny that I’ve been using a small personal mod for CK2 for awhile myself. There are some downsides to modding and using mods though:
It requires awareness that it’s possible, and where to find existing mods. The modding scene is a jungle.
It takes a modicum of extra effort and skill.
It might not feel quite legitimate (it can feel a bit like cheating) and you might not get any Achievements.
Mods typically do not have the same level of support as the base game. Many become fossilized or are otherwise problematic.
For these reasons especially, I think that adding a bunch of Paradox-approved, fully supported in-game rule variations is a good idea. Thus, when you start a new game, you are now presented with several interesting options. Most of them are simple flavor variations, but some are more fundamental and will disable Achievements in Ironman mode. Here’s the list of options we are currently showing in the new screen (still a work in progress though):
Our new rule system is itself fully moddable, so that modders can use the same system with pretty much any options they might want!
I look forward to your thoughts and comments. Are there any rule variations you think we’ve missed, or that you would really like to see?
Also I am quite a capable modder myself, since I have modded quite a few things for a personal mod I use. But this is one of those things that is hard coded in which I can't mod out. Hence why it needs to be something they make available as vanilla game option, or add some modder support for it.
Trust me its quite possible and should be quite easy for them to do so. All they would have to do is add in a condition to see which setting is on before marriages happen.
The members of your court never get married unless you tell them to. Occasionally there is a random even where they marry behind your back, or have a lover which then activates an event asking for your approval of their marriage or to imprison them. As you can see, that is a entire separate event and its not built into the basic marriage AI mechanic itself.
As soon as the AI leaves your court, they are allowed to do everything that you basically can if they are landed. Usually the first thing they do is spam marriage requests, or marry that auto generated female courtier that they have in their court if no other females a present. Just to note, the number of automatically spawned female courtiers is based on how many wives your religion can have in the religion file. For instance if you lets say mod catholicism to allow polygamy, and you set the "max_wives" value to 1000. It will spawn 1000 female courtiers for you when the game starts.
So all that is needed is for them to add a condition tell the AI whether it should try to marry or not based on the setting. Then just treat/scope to any unmarried relatives in your realm as if they are someone in your court in the marriage screen.
Because they already have a system that detects who is related to you. Hence the little blood symbols that indicates you who is in your dynasty. They also already have a system that detects who is your brother/sister, cousins, uncles/aunts since there are already options in the religion files to allow you to marry anyone of those individually without having the "Divine Blood" option that allows you to marry anyone as you can see here.
You are also welcome to mod the game, this isn't a reason to add a change.
If you look at the opening post none of those options allow the level of exploiting you are requesting. It comes down to balance and this option would destroy any semblance of balance.
Also that is exactly the reason why I am asking for that option. Because I don't want for them to get married. And the whole point of this thread was to give players the ability to play the game the way they wanted to without having to rely on third party mods.
Yes, but not to allow you to straight out cheat the system, by providing loop holes to get around mechanics in the game. Which is what the marriage suggestion does.
Trust me its quite possible and should be quite easy for them to do so. All they would have to do is add in a condition to see which setting is on before marriages happen.
You're basing this assumption on having seen the source code? I doubt it would be easy, the entire marriage mechanic might need to be redesigned to allow what you are suggesting. Landed characters are not courtiers.
Also I am quite a capable modder myself, since I have modded quite a few things for a personal mod I use. But this is one of those things that is hard coded in which I can't mod out. Hence why it needs to be something they make available as vanilla game option, or add some modder support for it.
Modding support yes. Available in base game no. It is too exploitable I looked at the suggestion and seen 3 ways to exploit it immediately. I'm sure there are many more ways to use this to the players advantage.
As I already said, its not possible to mod the game to do this with what is available to mod.
Not to mention again, it would be an optional toggle able setting. I don't see why you oppose something, that would be possible via modding anyways if think its okay for them to add modder support for it.
Also I suggest you read Doomarks original post again. The whole point of this thread is to add toggle able basic settings change so that players don't have to rely on modding it themselves unless they want something super advance which this is not.
If you look at the opening post none of those options allow the level of exploiting you are requesting. It comes down to balance and this option would destroy any semblance of balance.
Yes, but not to allow you to straight out cheat the system, by providing loop holes to get around mechanics in the game. Which is what the marriage suggestion does.
I don't think you understand how game changing most of the already approved toggle able game settings are. My suggestion is no more broken or game changing than any of them. For instance the Gender Equality Laws, Diplomatic Range, Regencies, Raiding, Revolts would all be equally equivalent.
You're basing this assumption on having seen the source code? I doubt it would be easy, the entire marriage mechanic might need to be redesigned to allow what you are suggesting. Landed characters are not courtiers.
Have you ever modded this game and dugged through the files, or test how its actual mechanics work for yourself? I know I have. I have seen them take out stuff, or even simply just limit things behind dlcs with simply conditions checks that were previously available to everyone before certain DLCs. Not to mention as a person who understands how scripting works I know it is possible. It definitely isn't easy to do, but its not any more tedious or harder than any of the other settings they have already listed. Nor does it require any massive rework or game balancing.
I have modded my game before where I prevented everyone from getting married except for my religion. You wanna know what happened? Basically nothing out of the ordinary. The game still played out just like normal, the only thing different happened was there was no lasting dynasties. The titles would just be passed on to randomly generated courtiers, which is basically exactly how cities / temples work.
Modding support yes. Available in base game no. It is too exploitable I looked at the suggestion and seen 3 ways to exploit it immediately. I'm sure there are many more ways to use this to the players advantage.
I don't think you understand how game changing most of the already approved toggle able game settings are. My suggestion is no more broken or game changing than any of them. For instance the Gender Equality Laws, Diplomatic Range, Regencies, Raiding, Revolts would all be equally equivalent.
None of those options open up the ability to exploit a mechanic like gavelkind succession. Gender increase candidates, range decreases who you can talk to, regencies reverts to previous rules, raiding can already be done, revolts have no actual effect on any realm. The mechanics mentioned have minimal impact on the rest of the game.
It allows the circumvention of game mechanics like gavelkind succession. That is too exploitive to add into the game. Games require rules, they are there to stop exploits. It doesn't matter if it is single player or not. Would you demand Blizzard to make zerglings to have more attack skill as an in game option, because it is single player. Game rules exist for a reason, if you want to add something that exploits things in the way your suggesting, the only option will be mods. If it isn't available, then modability is what you request in this case. There are many new additions each patch opened up to modding. If it is something that has been requested for a long time and it's not released. Maybe it isn't easy to make it moddable, which probably means it isn't easy to rework the code.
None of those options open up the ability to exploit a mechanic like gavelkind succession. Gender increase candidates, range decreases who you can talk to, regencies reverts to previous rules, raiding can already be done, revolts have no actual effect on any realm. The mechanics mentioned have minimal impact on the rest of the game.
It allows the circumvention of game mechanics like gavelkind succession. That is too exploitive to add into the game. Games require rules, they are there to stop exploits. It doesn't matter if it is single player or not.
I don't think you're thinking any of these things through very clearly. Considering the fact that the Gender Equality laws allows you to completely circumvent the games normal flow of successions laws such as Agnatic succesion, and all the penalties the involve having crown authority laws and succession laws change. Not to mention the peace and approval rating to do so.
The regency settings allow you to rule with no penalties as a child, which completely goes against the whole point of having it and is originally there for balance.
Turning off raiding and revolts has great effects since it guarantees you realm stability without having to constantly waste time money and troops fighting annoyances that are meant to hinder you from getting too powerful.
There literally is nothing with my suggestion that messes up gravelkind succession in any more game breaking then simply switching to tanistry or elective succession. Not to mention the act of switching to tanistry requires a bunch of nonsense and penalties in game. And if you were to mod the game to start off as tanistry, it would require you to constantly edit the history and save files every single time you play a new character. Also currently there is no way for you mod the game to change default succession away from gravelkind for everyone without having to constantly do manual save game editing.
So yeah there is a lot more benefit to adding a simple toggle setting that lets you control/manipulate how gravelkind works, than the alternative, which changing how it is the default setting for thousands of characters except for a select few in the history files. Also not to mention one basic setting this, it would reduce lag because instead of having a dynasty of hundreds or thousands of characters, it would be limited to whatever you wanted it to be. Not to mention they would also need to add in actual modder support on how to prevent people from getting married. Which not only would be more work for them, but also completely defeating the purpose of this thread.
So to be honest you're just being silly at this point since you have not made a single logical argument here on why this shouldn't be added when Doomark specifically says the purpose of this thread is to add variation settings into the game, that can be fundamentally game changing, so that the average player doesn't have to constantly mod the game themselves. Its like you completely ignore the purpose of this thread simply because you have fears that people will play the game the way they want to instead your way.
Would you demand Blizzard to make zerglings to have more attack skill as an in game option, because it is single player. Game rules exist for a reason, if you want to add something that exploits things in the way your suggesting, the only option will be mods. If it isn't available, then modability is what you request in this case. There are many new additions each patch opened up to modding. If it is something that has been requested for a long time and it's not released. Maybe it isn't easy to make it moddable, which probably means it isn't easy to rework the code.
Considering the fact that Blizzard doesn't support any real modding whatsoever for Starcraft 1 / Brood Wars and everything being hard coded, I would say that is an extremely bad example. I use to make custom maps for Starcraft and it required basically hacks and various third party programs to do most of the advance map editing tricks.
But otherwise in a single player mode in both SC1/SC2, I could of easily opened up any single player maps and literally open up the map editor and change the stat values of the zergling to anything I wanted given that it doesn't exceed 9999.
Also the difference between this game and Starcraft is that this game is meant to be played primarily as a moddble single player games as of where Starcraft is not, hence the completely different approach to how module the game is. Not to mention in Starcraft the develops never out right ask for what toggle able game changing settings they could.
So you chose an extremely bad example that makes no sense at all.
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