• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

CK3 Dev Diary #06 - Council, Powerful Vassals, & Spouse Councillor

Greetings, friends!

I’m Wokeg, and I’m the juniorest of the content designers on CK3. Unless you like anarcho-communist insect people, you almost certainly haven’t heard of me: mostly I scuttle around the office mumbling about the West Country and obscure cultural features, but I’m here to talk to you today about your council, your powerful vassals, and the role of your spouse in the realm.

Let’s start with the basics: what have we carried over from CK2?

Your council still has five primary positions: a chancellor, steward, marshal, spymaster, and court chaplain, each relying on a particular skill (respectively, diplomacy, stewardship, martial, intrigue, and learning). Every councillor is either a vassal or a courtier of yours, and you are (mostly) able to hire and fire for these roles at will. Each of these council positions can be given different tasks, relying on an appropriate skill, which help your realm to survive and thrive. Theoretically.

001.jpg


Ok, so that should be pretty familiar to most of you. So, what’s actually changed?

Firstly, state skills are gone. While they weren’t the worst thing in the world, you tended to forget they existed unless they were utterly abysmal, which was incredibly rare. Plus, personally, I could never get the mental image of your chancellor leaping in front of the king and clamping a hand over his mouth every time he thought of another dirty joke about the King of France out of my head.

Instead of affecting your character’s skill in certain interactions, councillor skills now dramatically affect their efficacy at the tasks you set them. A skilled steward not only yanks coins from the hands of undeserving peasants as fast as the peasants earn ‘em, they’ll also be much more likely to receive positive minor events while doing it. Similarly, a terrible steward is not just slow, they’ll actively bungle things and make a mess of your accounts as they go. Choosing between the politically-powerful idiot and the adroit courtier has never been quite so difficult.

002.png


To compensate for this a little, merely being on your liege’s council will give you a very minor bonus to the appropriate skill for your position. Even a truly terrible councillor has at least some assistants helping them out.

Further, tasks now do not reset when changing councillors. If you tell your steward to keep increasing the development in a particular county, they’ll stick at it until told to stop, pausing if you have no steward at all. Council tasks in specific counties will only stop if the county stops being a valid place to perform that task, such as because a time-locked action (e.g., religious conversion) was completed, or because you lost the county in a war.

Instead of listing all the possible tasks each councillor can take, let’s keep things light and just have the most interesting/newest task each councillor can perform:
  • Chancellor: Integrate Title, speeds de jure drift of a valid title into your realm.
  • Marshal: Increase Control in County, increase control gain per month in a specific county.
  • Steward: Increase Development in County, reduce building & holding construction time in a specific county. Boost development growth per month in the same.
  • Spymaster: Find Secrets, attempt to learn of secrets in a given court, including your own.
  • Court Chaplain: Fabricate Claim on County, gain opportunities to acquire claims on a specific county.

Ok, that was a lot of information on non-dramatic differences. Are there any really big changes we’ve got stored up?

Well now, that depends. Are you single and outside the reach of that meddlesome Pope? Then life might seem pretty smooth, at least for a while. On the other hand, if you’re a married Catholic…

003.jpg


The first part of this is marriage, and, as you may have guessed from the title of this dev diary, the five classic slots are now joined by your primary spouse! Historically, spouses were often vital assistants in running the realm, providing counsel and advice even when they, strictly speaking, were not supposed to.

We model this by giving them a variety of council tasks, each one boosting your stats directly by taking some of the weight of leadership off of your shoulders. The default is a generic “assist ruler” task, simply helping out here and there, and providing a minor flat boost to all skills, for those rulers who feel like they can pretty much tackle the world unassisted. Discounting vassals as assistance, because, y’know, obviously.

If you need more specialised help, you can also have them boost a specific stat directly. This adds a large portion of their skill directly to yours, as you offload an immense amount of power and responsibility onto your spouse, lending them your authority in exchange for their skill. While focusing in this manner, they’ll only boost their assigned skill, so you’ll need to choose how they support you carefully.

Don’t have a spouse? Well, that’s ok, single feudal heirs are out there just waiting to meet you.

Have a spouse and they’re landed? I’m afraid they’ve got better things to do than finish your lordly homework for you.

004.png


Now, for the second of our two major differences: have you ever heard the phrase “Will no one will rid me of this turbulent priest”?

Well, have we got some turbulent priests for you.

Certain faiths (details on which, other than Catholicism, to follow in a later diary) replace the court chaplain with a bishop. If you still have a court chaplain, then they’ll behave much like other councillors, though some faiths may still have a harder time firing them.

Bishops use a mechanic called leasing (though they’re not the only ones to do so), whereby they control all levies and receive all taxes from every temple holding in your personal domain. Additionally, your bishop will receive a fraction of the taxes and levies generated by all of your vassals’ bishops. All told, that’s a lot of ducats the Church seems to be getting, isn’t it?

Of course, as loyal subjects of the crown, your bishop will be very happy to hand over taxes and troops to you, scaling with quite how happy they are. A loyal bishop is a huge boon for your economy and military, and can make the difference between unstoppable royal might and economic ruin.

A recalcitrant bishop, by contrast, is an utter pain. If they do not approve of you at least a little, they’ll hold back taxes and levies until you meet their standards again, and if they actively hate you, may even begin conspiring with others to replace you with a more pious monarch.

Of course, you’re probably asking what stops you from firing your bishop and replacing them with, say, a good friend of yours?

Around these parts, that’s what we call heresy. And you’ll have to wait till the religious dev diary for details on exactly what your options are for legally sacking your bishop. As for illegally, well, no Pope can stop a knife to the base of the spine...

Turbulent priests indeed.

005.png


Our final talking point for today is the subject of powerful vassals.

These should be familiar to many of you from CK2’s Conclave expansion: powerful vassals are the wealthiest lords with the highest levy counts in the realm. They’re powerful, influential, and unruly, and you ignore them at your peril. The higher your tier, the more of them you’ll have to contend with, and eventually you’re going to have to pick who you want to snub rather than how you want to please everyone.

As in Conclave, powerful vassals always expect a seat on your council. They’re the greatest magnates of their day, damn it, and they demand to be heard! Leaving one out in the political cold will give you a huge opinion penalty with that character, since a council seat is theirs by right of might.

Not any particular seat, mind you, and just because they might not be able to organise an army to save their life, that’s no reason for you not to give them the role of marshal. Power is basically the same as competence, right?

So, what do you actually directly get out of acquiescing to these uppity lords? Well, there’s one very important function that powerful vassals tie into directly: changing your succession. CK2 required you to have all vassals who both de jure and de facto belong to one of your titles approve of you before you could change your succession. In CK3, that veto belongs to your powerful vassals alone, and they very much know it.

Finally, powerful vassals are also hooked into a number of other systems in little ways, some of which may be talked about in later dev diaries, some of which we can talk about here. In elective successions, they usually receive more votes, as they have more sway over the realm’s processes. When recruiting for schemes, powerful vassals make better agents, provided you can persuade them, and since they know this, they’re also harder to use the sway scheme on. And, lastly, an unhappy powerful vassal in a faction is a far more worrisome prospect (more on factions later down the line).

006.png


Well, that’s all we have to say on your council’s functions for now. I hope that this has answered some of your burning questions and got you excited to manage the governance of your realm.

Next week, I believe we have some notes on characters, portraits, and traits...
 
  • 7Like
  • 4
Reactions:
@Wokeg

Will, there be any form of gradual scaling with powerful vassals and their negative opinion of you for excluding them from your council?

It is kind of nonsensical in CK2 that when you appoint someone to be a priest not even a day into that job they can be suddenly annoyed at you because you weren't automatically giving them a council position on top. It would make more sense that any negative opinions should build up over a matter of years once they'd have proven themselves in their primary role. Same deal with inheritors once they reach their majority.
 
Really good DD, i'm getting less concern after very disappointing introduction of "fixed capitals" and "no single holding bordergore" and all this baronies less relevant stuff. (but still have hope for more, not less, bordergore, please!)
Good job, reading it made me fell like you are trying to make game really immersive - that's what i didn't know i wanted. ;)

After understanding the mechanic of Archbishop collecting from Bishops, who are one for every count, i'm quite impressed :)
I'm also curious about:
1. What reason do one have to build temple holding in own realm? I't would make my Bishop just so more powerful.
2. What will be my relations with bishops of my vassals? Is there any reason to keep good relations with all of the church if only one guy is paying me? (asking about good, not bad relations)
3. Will there be Primate? Will there be any interactions with bishops, archbishops and Duke (player)? Will there be any factions/disagreements in church of England and King can side with bishops against Duke Archbishop?
I really like ideas to make heir or regent another councilor if you have no wife or fluid number of them, depending on laws or kings will.

Hey, really guys, i know that my girl is like 30+ in intrigue and similar in martial and 0-5 in stewardship but i live with her!
It was always strange to me that this Scottish lad had full knowledge, that baron in Moravia is fat and very, very poor in diplomacy.
He is just a bit worst in diplomacy then second wife of Duke in west Morocco....
Next dev diary will be about characters and traits, did team ever considered hiding stats and traits?
CK3 is going RPG way, i'm not sure about it yet, but making stats hidden ( 10-14 instead of solid number) seems like obvious step.
Finding about someones flaws and strengths dependent on character ability seems like next logical step.

Hope for more well written diaries and good content reveals :)
 
Around these parts, that’s what we call heresy.
Sounds more like simony
A skilled steward not only yanks coins from the hands of undeserving peasants as fast as the peasants earn ‘em, they’ll also be much more likely to receive positive minor events while doing it. Similarly, a terrible steward is not just slow, they’ll actively bungle things and make a mess of your accounts as they go.
That's not really a change from the CK2 status quo

Also, I look forward to another several centuries of telling vassals who have two barons more than the mean reporting to them that if they want that council seat, they're free to hit the books and git gud
 
I see it much more fit for commanders than for the marshal (a bit like in I:R, the Praetorii don't get a uniform by default while the commanders do). Marshall is more a court role, not implying any necessary engagement with the battlefield; commanders are "there" on the ground.

Quite the contrary, I like how your portraits say much more about the character beyond its role (the Marshall in the screenshot is clearly a newborn and we can see it by his simpler dress compared to the brocades of the other courtiers...).

A little off-topic: I'd like to see commanders having more importance as characters, taking a leaf out of I:R.
Well...marshals wear armor in the previous game, why not in the sequel with better graphics? But i understand your point and i think that would be good as well if it were implemented that way =)
 
I love that some people (in previous DD) used to complain the portraits were too caroonish and now someone is complaining they're too dark... Might be an indicator that Paradox reached a good middle ground?

I don't think he is talking about mood, but the actual color of the interface. (or lacking of)

Next dev diary will be about characters and traits, did team ever considered hiding stats and traits?
CK3 is going RPG way, i'm not sure about it yet, but making stats hidden ( 10-14 instead of solid number) seems like obvious step.

This seems to me one of those things that on paper sound good, but practically are not worth the extra work (there was some discussion about it at the top of this thread IIRC).

Really, practically speaking, what difference would it make to know that somebody have diplo 13 rather than 10-14?
 
@Wokeg

Will, there be any form of gradual scaling with powerful vassals and their negative opinion of you for excluding them from your council?

It is kind of nonsensical in CK2 that when you appoint someone to be a priest not even a day into that job they can be suddenly annoyed at you because you weren't automatically giving them a council position on top. It would make more sense that any negative opinions should build up over a matter of years once they'd have proven themselves in their primary role. Same deal with inheritors once they reach their majority.

So true, I remember how annoying it was to give to someone a Count title only to see that that decreased their opinion of you because of ambition, instead of increasing it!
 
Yes, I realize that. If a 340 levy Duke is considered powerful - whereas a Duke in 1066 CK2 usually has a levy over 1k - then either this King/Emporer is pretty weak, or the game has scaled down army sizes, which is the actually thing I'm pointing out :p

We still know very little about the underlying game systems so making any conlusions is a bit far fetched. We don't know what does it even mean for a vassal to be considered powerful, does that power even directly relate to the number of their troops? How does the game count levies? What contract is that vassal under - is he obliged to provide all his levies to his liege or just a part of them? Would we be able to see in the interface the troops that he 'keeps for himself' in line with the feudal contract? What does the number 340 stand for exactly - is it the max number of troops or just the currently available? The bar seems filled in around 25%, possibly due to poor relations or casualties, which in turn could mean that the duke would max out at around 1200+ levies. But this is all just speculation until we learn how the mechanics and *interface* work, as there could be some more or less significant changes to them. Do remember that this is WIP and changes, especially to numbers, are likely - not to mention the fact that this image doesn't necessarily have to come from actual gameplay.
 
Last edited:
An interesting question, if they go further than conclave in making the optimal strategy to have a council full of powerful vassals, is have they planned to give any role to landless courtiers other than the ones having good enough martial skill to become commanders (and especially considering they'll also be less titles to distribute, as they removed bishop baron level vassals and investiture).
In CK2 I was already finding lame the little interest the non martial courtiers had (out of eventually finding one genius you'd employ as advisor, or loyal people you'd give titles to), and that I used 'promote commander' perhaps an hundred time per game but almost never 'invite noble to court' ; and debutantes only if I needed some influx of new blood to avoid too much consanguinity in my realm.
If there's even less use to keep around all those people just waiting there and likely to become foreign plot agents, I fear the optimal strategy will just be to keep courts as empty as possible, or only use court space for breeding experiments, which would be rather immersion breaking.
 
In CK2 I was already finding lame the little interest the non martial courtiers had (out of eventually finding one genius you'd employ as advisor, or loyal people you'd give titles to), and that I used 'promote commander' perhaps an hundred time per game but almost never 'invite noble to court' ; and debutantes only if I needed some influx of new blood to avoid too much consanguinity in my realm.
Realistically finding a good commander during CK time period would probably not been particular hard given the amount of people educated about leading armies since childhood, also warfare was rather simple compared to today. I would assume the same would apply to the other positions as well.

If there's even less use to keep around all those people just waiting there and likely to become foreign plot agents, I fear the optimal strategy will just be to keep courts as empty as possible, or only use court space for breeding experiments, which would be rather immersion breaking.
Yes that is a risk.
 
I'm ok with those faces but don't the wife has making babies as job too(not enough role)... Cause you can enforce ruler and wife into a closed room having fun 24/24 and let a regent rule while you are busy.
 
So... from first to last:

1) I'm starting to take a liking to the portraits. And I'm both expectant and shivering already by imagining the cool mods that will appear to give the characters some nice regalia, while accepting the fact that nude mods will "probably" be the most popular ones for CK III.

2) Is Chancellor Berthold suffering from typeworms that give him -24 something??? I mean, rationally, I guess that icon is supposed to be a whip, meaning he was cohersed into working harder or something, but it really looks like a worm right now. Is it possible to twik that image a bit?

3) Is that Marshal REALLY holding his sword by the blade? His martial is like what? Is he curious to see how well he can perform his duty fingerless?

4) I absolutelly LOVED the spouse mechanics and the fact that a landed spouse has no time for any of that. It gives some edge to having an unlanded one, besides genetics.

5) Will there be events firing due to having the spouse set to help with a certain work? Like Chivalry and Patronage leading to new works of art being created (legends, sculptures and songs), a slight reorganization of the army due to the code of chivalry spreading and attracting high skill courtiers like bards and such? Or having them Manage the Domain resulting in lower war exhaustion? 'Cause that kind of stuff would depict mighty fine some of the effects of famous consorts in history supporting the realm.

6) Oh, now I think I get it with the Archbishop. The landed churches under you will still have their own holders, but they will answer to him! Given how previous posts spoke of his character, I was afraid he would own all churchlands himself and that would feel unrealistic.

7) I just... I MUST ask (even though this post is not so new), would it be possible to have some church lands be given to nuns instead of bishops and turned into an abbey instead of a bishopry? IRL, abesses held a lot of power and occasionally advised rulers (techinically, that would make a female counsellor without a lot of stretch). That would reflect what a lot of noble houses did accross history and finally give something to do with daughters with high absurdly high stats but no normal chances of inheriting or being given lands. I would buy the game first day if I finally could solve this petty peeve of mine of no nunneries existing. lol
 
3) Is that Marshal REALLY holding his sword by the blade? His martial is like what? Is he curious to see how well he can perform his duty fingerless?
You don't need to be able to fight or even have fingers to lead armies, for example Joan of Arc claimed to never have killed anyone personally. Also Im not so sure it would be all that dangerous to hold a sword like that.

4) I absolutelly LOVED the spouse mechanics and the fact that a landed spouse has no time for any of that. It gives some edge to having an unlanded one, besides genetics.
Yes it is probably the best addition here.
 
A 340 Ducal levy makes you a powerful vassal?
I took it to mean that that was the amount of levy that he owed to his liege lord as part of his feudal contract. Notice that there is a bar inside a bar, that the bright bar represents the 340 men and the shaded, longer bar represents his actual host. So more like 1.2k-ish man levy for him, 340 of which he owes to you if you call on them.
 
Maybe there should be an option for councilors to ask the current ruler to abdicate? It would be limited to certain circumstances (ruler is too old, wrong culture/religion, crippled, insane, etc.), and a majority of the council would have to approve the request. If the ruler accepts, he/she abdicates and is replaced by their heir or the closest claimant. If the ruler does not accept, they can then legally imprison the requesting councilors for their insolence, giving the councilors the option to keep quiet and hope the ruler is lenient, start a revolt, or resign and hide.
 
One thing I can't help but notice - The Chancellor and the Steward are both Dukes. In the next screenshot, the spouse is a Duchess/Petty Queen.

Does that mean tiers in the old sense are gone?
No, it looks more like these are two different courts. The council with the Dukes is pretty clearly in the HRE. The spouse/Archbishop one looks more like a Duchy in Ireland, hence the difference in the names.