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CK3 Dev Diary #79 - An Update on Cultures

Greetings!

We’ve talked plenty about cultures already at this point, but I wanted to give you a brief update on what we’ve done since the initial reveal of the culture rework. Since then, we’ve taken some time to add additional functionality based on your feedback!

Previously, you could only add new traditions to a culture to fill out any empty tradition slots you may have. If you wanted to change anything regarding your culture, you would have to create a new one. Which begs the question. What if I want to keep the culture I already have? Or why can I not replace that one tradition to make my culture perfect? Fret not. The cultural head has gained the ability to change, or ‘reform’ if you will, their culture in order to change it without the need to create a new culture. The cultural head cannot replace everything mind you, but may change the ethos, the martial custom, and any tradition. If you want to change any of the remaining pillars you’ll have to create a new culture, either by diverging or forming a hybrid. Do note that you need to own the Royal Court expansion to reform your culture, similar to creating a culture. Even without the DLC, you can always add new traditions to fill out any empty slots.

Reasoning for what you are able to change this way is twofold. First, changing heritage or language for an existing culture felt a bit off. While a language in reality does evolve over time, that is something we don’t really represent in the game, which makes it weird to simply “replace” a language. And you can’t really change your heritage in the same vein as, say, a tradition. Secondly, we wanted to make sure that you still have a valid reason to create a divergent culture. The two approaches are slightly similar in functionality, but it is important that both reforming and diverging a culture serves different purposes and that the distinction between the two is clear.

01_reform_button.jpg

[Image showing the options to reform or diverge a culture]

The major difference is, as mentioned above, that reforming only allows you to change certain aspects about a culture, while diverging allows for additional possibilities. A second significant difference is the cost. Replacing a pillar will cost you prestige. The ethos in particular includes a rather hefty prestige cost that should make it rather difficult to repeatedly change it over the course of a campaign. You are, however, free to pick any ethos, regardless of circumstances.

02_replace_ethos.jpg

[Image of the ethos replacement window]

Traditions will also be more expensive to replace. Instead of just a flat increase, replacing a tradition increases the prestige cost by 50%. The cost penalty will therefore be relative to how well your culture matches any given tradition, making the additional cost more harsh for already expensive (and less compatible) traditions.

03_replace_tradition_cost.jpg

[Image showing the prestige cost for the Agrarian tradition when replacing a tradition]

These additional costs will make reforming or diverging your culture easier or more difficult depending on your situation. Attempting to diverge from a large and unified culture, such as Greek when playing as the Byzantine emperor, will be rather expensive and the less viable option. Especially if you only want to change a tradition or two. Reforming your culture will be cheaper, allowing you to more easily tweak your culture over time.

If you are playing as the cultural head of a widely spread culture, such as Andalusian, diverging might instead be your preferred solution. Diverging from a culture that is spread out across multiple realms is significantly cheaper, allowing you to instead spend the prestige on replacing additional traditions or save it for something else entirely. Changing pillars is, for example, free when diverging, since you are forced to change at least one pillar in order to be able to create your new culture.

Finally, you might have noticed the hourglass in the above screenshots. This is the establishment rate. Whenever you add or replace a tradition, or change a pillar, it will take some time before the change is applied. The time required for a change to be fully adopted mainly depends on your culture’s size. Larger cultures will logically gravitate towards a slower establishment rate. The duration is also increased whenever you replace an existing tradition. As such, adding a completely new tradition to your culture is not only cheaper, but it will go faster as well. This is important because you may only have one cultural change pending at any given time. If you replace a tradition with something else, you will have to wait until that tradition has been fully adopted before you can change your culture again. Diverging, on the other hand, still allows you to do sweeping changes and they take effect immediately as you create a new culture.

04_establish_time.jpg

[Image of the establishment rate tooltip]

That about sums up all of the additional changes we’ve done. In short, the ambition here is to allow you to shape your culture more freely in the way you want, without having to always resort to doing something that might feel a bit heavy handed. On a final note, I’d like to thank you for providing us with feedback and voicing your opinions! Giving valid and constructive criticism does, at times, pay off.
 
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If you've explained this before, sorry for asking, but what is the logic behind the cultural head being able to diverge their culture? It feels to me like diverging your culture should be treated in a similar manner to establishing a cadet house in the sense that it should be limited to lesser rulers, who want to go their own way, and be unavailable to the person who is already controlling the parent culture.
I mean you shouldn't be punished for being the foremost ruler of your culture. I don't see it as especially illogical. Cultural centers shift over time.
 
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That could certainly be a good source for some additional flavor, but no. We don't have any such events.
Will the new mod tools coming in 1.5 include a scope for establishment period, so that modders can add events?
 
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Will reforming/diverging/merging cultures make any AI characters happy or mad based on the new ethoses or traditions?

Diverging and merging cultures creates a completely new culture and I understand most of the AI characters will have an option to switch to the newly created culture but what happens when a culture is reformed? Can any of the AI or player characters change their culture to something else as a result of the reformation? Especially if they rule or live in foreign culture lands
 
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Guys, question a little off topic, but can you tell me how the ethnicity of 3D portraits of unified cultures will work? For example, if I found a Greek-African culture, what would the ethnicity of the 3D portraits of newly spawned characters look like?

Will it be a mixture generated from both original bases?
 
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Guys, question a little off topic, but can you tell me how the ethnicity of 3D portraits of unified cultures will work? For example, if I found a Greek-African culture, what would the ethnicity of the 3D portraits of newly spawned characters look like?

Will it be a mixture generated from both original bases?
It will be either Greek courtiers or African courtiers
 
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Do you plan doing something relating to languages feedback? Will there be language groups?
Languages already represent a wider array of things than just one specific language or dialect, adding another layer of abstraction over the top of that or adding more sub levels and properties like scripts as spoke about earlier in this thread is very much out of the scope of what a language in the game represents and impacts.

1635258682281.png

The actual in game tooltip explains it pretty succinctly I feel. Language is one aspect of the culture system rework, it is not in of itself going to to have a system on a similar scale or multiple hierarchies applied in this culture rework.

We have acted on various pieces of feedback with regards to some language names and suggested languages and areas as pieces of content in the system, but the system of languages itself will not be grown.
 
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Big shame. Having to put as much effort in learning your neighboring German language when you know High German, as in learning something like Chinese, is silly
 
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I have 2 questions strongly related to modding:
1. Idk if it was mentioned anywhere, but will we be able to add new pillars? Let's say pillar called "faith/religion" in the case when the mod changes faiths in CK sense to something else for example ideologies.
2. Will AI fill all tradition slots if we add more of them to the game? For example we will expand game till 1918 and add 6 new tradition slots will AI fill all of them (assuming player is able to do it)?
 
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Hello!
Will the Hungarian migration come with a pre made merge of the cultures of the region (as as in real life) or will the player have the option to make their own way of merging Avar, West and South Slavic with Mogyer culture's pillars and traditions?
Also it happened really fast in real life, will it be faster to change the basics as Mogyers after the migration for a couple decades? Or would it be a decision to speed up the conversion/merging?

I really love the where the expansion is heading, keep up the good work guys!
 
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Greetings!

We’ve talked plenty about cultures already at this point, but I wanted to give you a brief update on what we’ve done since the initial reveal of the culture rework. Since then, we’ve taken some time to add additional functionality based on your feedback!

Previously, you could only add new traditions to a culture to fill out any empty tradition slots you may have. If you wanted to change anything regarding your culture, you would have to create a new one. Which begs the question. What if I want to keep the culture I already have? Or why can I not replace that one tradition to make my culture perfect? Fret not. The cultural head has gained the ability to change, or ‘reform’ if you will, their culture in order to change it without the need to create a new culture. The cultural head cannot replace everything mind you, but may change the ethos, the martial custom, and any tradition. If you want to change any of the remaining pillars you’ll have to create a new culture, either by diverging or forming a hybrid. Do note that you need to own the Royal Court expansion to reform your culture, similar to creating a culture. Even without the DLC, you can always add new traditions to fill out any empty slots.

Reasoning for what you are able to change this way is twofold. First, changing heritage or language for an existing culture felt a bit off. While a language in reality does evolve over time, that is something we don’t really represent in the game, which makes it weird to simply “replace” a language. And you can’t really change your heritage in the same vein as, say, a tradition. Secondly, we wanted to make sure that you still have a valid reason to create a divergent culture. The two approaches are slightly similar in functionality, but it is important that both reforming and diverging a culture serves different purposes and that the distinction between the two is clear.

View attachment 768069
[Image showing the options to reform or diverge a culture]

The major difference is, as mentioned above, that reforming only allows you to change certain aspects about a culture, while diverging allows for additional possibilities. A second significant difference is the cost. Replacing a pillar will cost you prestige. The ethos in particular includes a rather hefty prestige cost that should make it rather difficult to repeatedly change it over the course of a campaign. You are, however, free to pick any ethos, regardless of circumstances.

View attachment 768070
[Image of the ethos replacement window]

Traditions will also be more expensive to replace. Instead of just a flat increase, replacing a tradition increases the prestige cost by 50%. The cost penalty will therefore be relative to how well your culture matches any given tradition, making the additional cost more harsh for already expensive (and less compatible) traditions.

View attachment 768071
[Image showing the prestige cost for the Agrarian tradition when replacing a tradition]

These additional costs will make reforming or diverging your culture easier or more difficult depending on your situation. Attempting to diverge from a large and unified culture, such as Greek when playing as the Byzantine emperor, will be rather expensive and the less viable option. Especially if you only want to change a tradition or two. Reforming your culture will be cheaper, allowing you to more easily tweak your culture over time.

If you are playing as the cultural head of a widely spread culture, such as Andalusian, diverging might instead be your preferred solution. Diverging from a culture that is spread out across multiple realms is significantly cheaper, allowing you to instead spend the prestige on replacing additional traditions or save it for something else entirely. Changing pillars is, for example, free when diverging, since you are forced to change at least one pillar in order to be able to create your new culture.

Finally, you might have noticed the hourglass in the above screenshots. This is the establishment rate. Whenever you add or replace a tradition, or change a pillar, it will take some time before the change is applied. The time required for a change to be fully adopted mainly depends on your culture’s size. Larger cultures will logically gravitate towards a slower establishment rate. The duration is also increased whenever you replace an existing tradition. As such, adding a completely new tradition to your culture is not only cheaper, but it will go faster as well. This is important because you may only have one cultural change pending at any given time. If you replace a tradition with something else, you will have to wait until that tradition has been fully adopted before you can change your culture again. Diverging, on the other hand, still allows you to do sweeping changes and they take effect immediately as you create a new culture.

View attachment 768072
[Image of the establishment rate tooltip]

That about sums up all of the additional changes we’ve done. In short, the ambition here is to allow you to shape your culture more freely in the way you want, without having to always resort to doing something that might feel a bit heavy handed. On a final note, I’d like to thank you for providing us with feedback and voicing your opinions! Giving valid and constructive criticism does, at times, pay off.
Will your cultural traditions/pillars/ethos have any impact on what events you can get in your court? It will not make sense to get a farmers petition if your culture is largely desert based for example.
 
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While a language in reality does evolve over time, that is something we don’t really represent in the game, which makes it weird to simply “replace” a language.
Are you able to reveal what language English culture will speak? Slightly worried now that it'll be either Anglo Saxon or Norman French aha
 
I like that you can change your ethos, but wish there were more challenging requirements than a simple prestige cost to change such fundamental things. Like for example if you want to become a martial culture you have to have fought X many battles or Y many wars (something that is difficult but which represents you being a great conqueror who thereby changes the culture).

Spiritual? Build churches and get along well with priests in your realm. Convert provinces to your faith. Maybe possess religious texts if books are added to the game.

Stoic? Possess appropriate traits (I.e. temperate, scholar), rule without tyranny, maybe write a Stoic text (if books are added).

And then when you reform your culture, gain a nickname to register that your character has ascended to heroic status within the culture because they became the example for its ethos.

Maybe down the line, cultures should even have “heroes” in the way that religions have “saints” (in CK2), with these heroes influencing what traditions are possible and some passive bonuses. Maybe a healthy culture needs recent heroes to thrive, with one whose heroes are all long gone considered “declining”. Heroes being semi-mythical figures who have achieved truly spectacular things, as a ruler or possibly through special quests, some culture-specific, which are either incredibly rare or only available to high level characters.
 
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Maybe down the line, cultures should even have “heroes” in the way that religions have “saints” (in CK2), with these heroes influencing what traditions are possible and some passive bonuses. Maybe a healthy culture needs recent heroes to thrive, with one whose heroes are all long gone considered “declining”.
I like the idea of heroes, but side by side with saints/ancestors, not instead of them. I agree with the rest of your comment as well, but it already improved from earlier, so I wouldn't be so insisisting on it
 
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I would love to see a release date soon :)
 
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Great dev diary!
I would like to add that It would be super cool if, when changing one tradition for another, during that "time to establish" you get events from people who reject the new tradition and defend the "old ways", as well as events from people who support the change. It would be nice if the rejecters had a way to forcefully stop the change, like a civil war or something. It could even be tied to factions or debates in the royal court.
Of course, it is too late to do this before release, but it might be cool for the future.
 
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I like that you can change your ethos, but wish there were more challenging requirements than a simple prestige cost to change such fundamental things. Like for example if you want to become a martial culture you have to have fought X many battles or Y many wars (something that is difficult but which represents you being a great conqueror who thereby changes the culture).

Spiritual? Build churches and get along well with priests in your realm. Convert provinces to your faith. Maybe possess religious texts if books are added to the game.

Stoic? Possess appropriate traits (I.e. temperate, scholar), rule without tyranny, maybe write a Stoic text (if books are added).

And then when you reform your culture, gain a nickname to register that your character has ascended to heroic status within the culture because they became the example for its ethos.

Maybe down the line, cultures should even have “heroes” in the way that religions have “saints” (in CK2), with these heroes influencing what traditions are possible and some passive bonuses. Maybe a healthy culture needs recent heroes to thrive, with one whose heroes are all long gone considered “declining”. Heroes being semi-mythical figures who have achieved truly spectacular things, as a ruler or possibly through special quests, some culture-specific, which are either incredibly rare or only available to high level characters.
Personally I'd prefer for the connection between change in cultures and the ruler that happened to be alive at the time to remain strictly in the realm of abstraction for gameability purposes.
The direction of something as large as a culture isn't something decided by singular ahistorical "great men" and then pushed down on the population at large.
 
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CK3 is starting to look more and more like a patreon/kickstarter project, plenty of "dev diaries" lots of promise and then when it comes time to deliver... boom, last minute switch, they did it the previous week with "royal audio" which again isnt really a dev diary.. they did a similar thing with "meet the team" not too far back... and now.. they're just rehashing what they've already explained 3x.

let me explain, i'm not impatient, im an adult but I am also not one to be strung along, pdx has an entire team dedicated to this game right?
modders have completely (and meaningfully) overhauled the entire game down to its pop management in a way that makes the AI actually competent.. now, are you seriously telling me that a small group of modders who have never met, have no official sponsorship and who lead busy lives of their own and still find time to completely overhaul the game have managed to become more productive than the people who are paid to actually work on the game?

i'm not a troll, im not an angry kid on the internet, i'm just a long standing paradox and CK fan who seems to be watching his favourite franchise and gaming company become like all the others, big promises and little fulfilment.

my refund window closes in 2 months, thats how long pdx has to show me that the season pass was worth buying, because so far...we got nadda, part from northern lords which is a flavour pack, for what it was worth might aswell have been a free patch.
 
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