CK3 Dev Diary #93 - Turmoil in the Peninsula

[wobarch]

Hope that jewish will also get some love in this flavor pack. Jewish Culture was a big part of iberian culture at that times and it would be a shame if it wouldn't get any love.

 

[davildante]

The archers aren't necessarily useless. If you build to use them they're quite powerful.
Giving English culture a similar perk to Chanson de Geste would make no sense. They could (if they wanted English to have it) just give them that trait.
Or you could reform the culture to have Chanson instead of archers.

Starting France (with Aquitaine) is close to being able to be an Empire. It needs cash and 6 more provinces in 867, and is in a fairly good place to take either Breton or Lotharingian provinces to make up the lack of provinces.

Historically though, Charles (the Bald) of West Francia wasn't ruler of Aquitaine - that was his son Louis at this stage, here represented as a mere Count.
After Louis inherits West Francia, he dies shortly there after and the kingdom is again divided, with Carloman effectively receiving Aquitaine and Burgundy.

After this the titles pass to Charles the Fat, and on his overthrow the titles are *again* divided for at least a short time, before they're reabsorbed leaving a semi-independent Aquitainian Duke holding most of the in game Kingdom.

I would suggest that at this point in game terms France (West Francia) had either shifted to normal Partition, and the title of Aquitaine was abolished, or that in game terms they'd become an Empire, and in game terms the Ranulfid line would have been Kings of Aquitaine.

When i say about dejure absorption i mean 1066 start date. To create Empire title you need 2 kingdom titles, it easily can do with Bretton territory. In 1066 France start with 1 title with voting. In the end of his life Philip garantie create Aquitaine title. And if he has more then 1 son country is break in two. So my point is i understand that course in 867 when they basically new country of fresh destroyed Carolingian Empire.

But in 1066 thay live togather 3H years. I will not talk about level of cultural acceptance that developed for all that time. But i think if kings come and go and territory still together i think they need to become dejure combine.

And who want to become empire in 1066 can conquere Brettons (plus 1 King title) than if he still dont have enough territory get some war against HRE for some french duches. In my play runing France almoust never go for Brettons but every time go for Burgundy and then break in two cos Philip die of old age.

About archers they not that strong if you compare them to classic one. But they cost more money so developers need or make they stats more higher or they price more chiaper. So that archers became real advantage to English culture.

About Chanson, English and Franch(in History) both have good poets and knights admiration. So i dont anderstand why Normans loose that trait when they became English and need 2 more traits to return bonuses from 1 trait they have in past. Plus they lost anglosaxons trait about Housecarl and cant get it back. So my point is why developers do so not attractive to create English culture.

 

[BurningEGO]

Also it just hit me, they have corrected the fact that the county of portugal didn't exist yet, but where have the placed Vimara Peres? he should definitely be playedble, considering he would be made count of portugal a year after the game start.

Yeah, he was definetely one of the most important characters of his time, definetely the most important near the Douro River in Portugal.

He was the founder of Guimarães, the "birthplace of Portugal" (aka craddle city), defeated vikings in Galicia, moors in the south and even founded/fortified places in the Duchy of Porto (known in reality as Condado Portucalense). Definetely should be mentioned, but knowing Paradox after all these years I am pretty sure they won't do a thing or even mention the guy at all since Portugal has small audience/consumer base unlike Spain (I still remember that both Portuguese and Spanish people complained during the dev diaries for the Golden Century DLC for EU4, a DLC about iberia, but only the Spanish were heard, despite the fact that the Portuguese complaints were based on facts and not purely on nationalist feelings).

 

[Darsara]

We are obviously talking about Mediterranean Iberia, not the former Kingdom in Georgia.

Ok, but "The Other Iberia" also seems like a good name for a Caucuses pack.

 

[lelyanra]

Aw, ain't we going to get dev responses?

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

the region he's talking about was depopulated at the time

Portucale

Yes, but as far as the game is concerned, **someone** has to own it.

And Portucale is the region we're discussing - he suggests that Peres should be spearheading the invasion, *and* already own the land.

 

[Ener_Ji]

Report it as a bug and mark it clearly as a console version issue, and raise it in the console threads. The two are handled by different teams.

Not only is the bug form still not updated for console (three weeks post-release!), but there's still no console-specific subforum, no console-specific pinned thread for console users to report bugs, nothing. I'm struggling to wrap my head around just what Paradox think it is doing with the console version. Maybe trying to piss away all the goodwill the Stellaris console version has generated for Paradox games on console.

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

Yes, but as far as the game is concerned, **someone** has to own it.

And Portucale is the region we're discussing - he suggests that Peres should be spearheading the invasion, *and* already own the land.

I'm suggesting either, not both.

Either he owns the land, or he is playable and in the process of invading it.

 

[Narvait]

Interfaith marriages are cool and should be a thing not only in Iberia. Of course, it should be worked out properly. Say, only neighbours, perhaps requesting a baptism from bride/groom, etc.

Also to protect from some inheritance shenanigans some sort of court religion feature would be great - forbidding someone of other religion to inherit the court (a character would be given a choice to baptism and take title OR no baptism and give to next in line). When you are established ruler, you would be able to change court religion, but not on inheritance. That would mimic Lithuanian Princes baptising to rule different Ruthenian Principalities.

 

[Cassilda]

I've noticed that in the Steam workshop there is a folk Basque religion decision a player can take. It's possible to know more about it?

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

I don't see this ever happening unless there is some sort of scripted events down the road that railroad this Catholic success in Portucale and Coimbra.

Unless the claim war we've both suggested is in play.
If it isn't, then it's a strong suggestion to make, to reflect the likely reality.

And scripted events would unfortunately be terrible, because it prevents you (if you play Muslim) from resisting the attacks somehow.

When I claim Portucale should already start as part of Asturias is more out of concern that the AI is never going to be able to sieze it in 1 year gameplay

So by parallel to that, should the Norman Conquest in 1066 start with William already having won it? After all, he's historically on the throne mere weeks later. The AI will *never* be able to seize the English throne in that time.
What about any other wars that are (historically) already in progress that are won within a year or so? And how far do you extend this back projection of rulers? 1 year? 2 years? 5?

To make this change suggests that they've got *some* source that indicates the land wasn't held by the Christians, whatever that source might be.

 

[heliostellar]

My favorite part of the map!!

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

Unless the claim war we've both suggested is in play.
If it isn't, then it's a strong suggestion to make, to reflect the likely reality.

And scripted events would unfortunately be terrible, because it prevents you (if you play Muslim) from resisting the attacks somehow.



So by parallel to that, should the Norman Conquest in 1066 start with William already having won it? After all, he's historically on the throne mere weeks later. The AI will *never* be able to seize the English throne in that time.
What about any other wars that are (historically) already in progress that are won within a year or so? And how far do you extend this back projection of rulers? 1 year? 2 years? 5?

To make this change suggests that they've got *some* source that indicates the land wasn't held by the Christians, whatever that source might be.

They chose the startdate to be deliberately during the Norman Conquest, and not after it, because the Norman conquest is supposed to be playable and a focus of the game.

I don't think they are extending the courtesy to Vimara Peres, he isn't even a suggested character.
It sounds more like the proper comparison would be outright removing William altogether and eliminating the Kingdom of England in the process because it didn't yet exist in 1066.

 

[Torngasuk]

Ok, but "The Other Iberia" also seems like a good name for a Caucuses pack.

As long as we're going with fun options, "Not That Georgia."

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

They chose the startdate to be deliberately during the Norman Conquest, and not after it, because the Norman conquest is supposed to be playable and a focus of the game.

I don't think they are extending the courtesy to Vimara Peres, he isn't even a suggested character.
It sounds more like the proper comparison would be outright removing William altogether and eliminating the Kingdom of England in the process because it didn't yet exist in 1066.

The Kingdom of England had existed for about 140 years at that point. That's a significant difference here.

EDIT: And William was already a significant land holder. He'd been Duke of Normandy for 30 years at that stage de jure, and defacto for around 20.

But still, how many other conquests should be backdated, and by how much just to have someone who ruled in the area a few years later be in charge at game start?

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

The Kingdom of England had existed for about 140 years at that point. That's a significant difference here

So you are arguing against yourself here.

Even if William loses, England still keeps existing, it's just one character and one dynasty, the geopolitical reality of the region remains basically intact.

This is not the case here, if Vimara Peres loses (or isn't in the game at all) then you have completely removed Atlantic Iberia with sharing any resemblance to their historical reality.

Even when he already started after the conquest, 4 times out of 5 the Muslims would simply push Asturias back anyway and no further southern expansion would happen, only a mess of bordergore and nonsense would remain.

Removing the Portucalense County will simply make it 5/5 for the same result.

 

[BurningEGO]

The Kingdom of England had existed for about 140 years at that point. That's a significant difference here.

EDIT: And William was already a significant land holder. He'd been Duke of Normandy for 30 years at that stage de jure, and defacto for around 20.

But still, how many other conquests should be backdated, and by how much just to have someone who ruled in the area a few years later be in charge at game start?

Vimara Peres was the grandson of King Bermudo (and unlike William, not a bastard), responsible for the expansion of Galicia in the region and for beating back the Vikings together with his father. Also one of the most important members of the King's Council. You simply don't delegate military tasks so important like these to a lowlife without importance.

Also despite all your posts you miss something vital here. He conquered Porto in 868, but what about the rest of the land that composes the county of Porto? He had to conquer it, and he definetely did it before 868. In fact, most of the territory (definetely the vast majority) must have belonged to the christians by 867.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

So you are arguing against yourself here.

Even if William loses, England still keeps existing, it's just one character and one dynasty, the geopolitical reality of the region remains basically intact.

This is not the case here, if Vimara Peres loses (or isn't in the game at all) then you have completely removed Atlantic Iberia with sharing any resemblance to their historical reality.

Even when he already started after the conquest, 4 times out of 5 the Muslims would simply push Asturias back anyway and no further southern expansion would happen, only a mess of bordergore and nonsense would remain.

Removing the Portucalense County will simply make it 5/5 for the same result.

No.
You suggested that the parallel would be the Kingdom of England not existing. That's not correct, because it had already been around for so long.

And the geo-political reality of England being Anglo-Saxon or Norman (with the ensuing ties to French politics) would mean that a no-conquest in the region would change that reality somewhat. It being conquered by Harald, bringing it into the Scandinavian sphere would change it even further.

Vimara Peres was the grandson of King Bermudo (and unlike William, not a bastard), responsible for the expansion of Galicia in the region and for beating back the Vikings together with his father. Also one of the most important members of the King's Council. You simply don't delegate military tasks so important like these to a lowlife without importance.

Also despite all your posts you miss something vital here. He conquered Porto in 868, but what about the rest of the land that composes the county of Porto? He had to conquer it, and he definetely did it before 868. In fact, most of the territory (definetely the vast majority) must have belonged to the christians by 867.

I'm not saying he's unimportant.

It's a bit of a surprise to see this change, to be honest.

But you say the territory "must" have belonged to the christians by 867. Bandua said "we don't know". So if it "must" have belonged to them can you point to a source saying this? It would probably be useful, and would probably completely change my position. As would something saying he definitely conquered the rest of the county before 868.

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

You suggested that the parallel would be the Kingdom of England not existing. That's not correct, because it had already been around for so long.

That is exactly correct.

The parallel of what they did was precisely removing the Kingdom of England altogether, not simply removing William.
If there was still a Portucalese county in case of Vimara losing or not existing, then you could make the direct comparison with the Norman Conquest.

But there isn't, it's muslim Cordoba, you have metaphorically speaking removed the Anglo-Saxon invasions by a year and started in a Celto-Roman Britain (with 0 chance of such invasion ever happening)

 

[BurningEGO]

I'm not saying he's unimportant.

It's a bit of a surprise to see this change, to be honest.

But you say the territory "must" have belonged to the christians by 867. Bandua said "we don't know". So if it "must" have belonged to them can you point to a source saying this? It would probably be useful, and would probably completely change my position. As would something saying he definitely conquered the rest of the county before 868.

What is known is that he conquered the region known as "Desert of Douro" by 868. Porto and Gaya only fell in that year. But the entire territory in-game, includes Minho, and a lot more territory than just 2 cities.

Vimara pratically liberated everything from Minho to Porto. Minho is a whole province by today's standards, just to give you an idea. Would be impossible to liberate what is known as the Duchy of Porto in-game in just 1 year back on the day. By 867, most must have been already in the hands of the christians. The region was known as a the "Desert of Douro" because it kept changing hands all the time and became a depopulated mess as a result - with Vimara Peres, making an entire difference and turning it into one of the centers of Power of the entire Kingdom, with many people considerating Vimara Peres as the first Portuguese as a result.

When Paradox doesn't even include "The First Portuguese" as an important character in an expansion like this - you already know how much they know about history in a DLC about Iberia.