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CKIII Dev Diary #25 - Map Features and Map Modes

Greetings everyone!

Today I’m here to talk a bit about the map. Building on top of our early map related DD#2 (if you have yet to read it, you can do so here), I’ll expand that discussion by outlining additional features, new information, and how you interact with the map itself!

Terrain
Let’s start with the terrain, which has a significant impact on several parts of the game. Different terrain types allow for different buildings to be constructed. For example, farmland allows for superior economy buildings, while mountainous terrain unlocks rather impressive defensive structures. They also have an effect on development, making development change faster or slower over time. Expect it to be a massive undertaking of developing the Sahara, while developing the fertile fields of India will be a much easier task.

As for combat, one of the most noticeable effects is that of combat width. When you are fielding a much larger army than your opponent, you will favour a high combat width, so you’ll want to seek to engage the enemy in plains or drylands. On the other hand, fighting in rough terrain like mountains or wetlands will restrict the number of units that can simultaneously engage the enemy, allowing small armies with powerful Men-at-Arms to truly excel. Terrain also affects army movement speed, along with the usual defensive bonus you would expect in rough terrain types, which is gained in the form of increased Advantage at the start of a battle.

The terrain types we have available are the following:
Farmlands - Has access to many different and powerful buildings, allowing you to easily customize your holding the way you want to. Paired with high development speed, farmland provinces are highly desirable to hold in your domain.
Floodplains - Another desirable terrain type used in certain areas, such as along the Nile. Similar in power to farmlands, but with some minor differences.
Plains - One of the most common terrain types, plains exist almost everywhere and provide a wide range of building options.
Drylands - A variant of plains with slightly different buildings available.
Desert - While deserts doesn’t offer a whole lot in terms of taxes, supply limit or development, it does have access to levies and a unique building chain increasing your number of available Knights.
Oasis - These exist only in certain areas. The terrain has access to similar buildings as desert, but without the penalties in supply limit or development.
Steppe - Mostly used by tribals on the wide steppe, this is where Horse Archers reign supreme. The steppe starts with low development, and has a significant penalty in development growth.
Forest - Has lower combat width and supply limit, but offers great buildings for improving archers and skirmishers.
Taiga - A variant found in the very northern parts of the map, with slightly lower combat width and supply limit than forest.
Jungle - Mainly found in India and offers even less combat width and supply limit. It does, however, have access to a unique building chain for improving your Knights and heavy cavalry.
Hills - Hills offers a small Advantage bonus in combat, and has access to both fortifications and decent tax buildings.
Mountains - Has access to great fortifications and defensive buildings, making it a long and risky business to siege down holdings.
Desert Mountains - Similar to mountains, but for desert areas (obviously), with lower supply limit, development growth, as well as a bonus that allows defending armies to take less casualties when retreating.
Wetlands - While wetlands still allow for some decent buildings, it’s a terrain type you don’t want to fight battles in if you can avoid it. Especially if there’s a risk of being on the losing side...

25_01_wetlands.jpg


25_01_farmlands.jpg


Context Sensitive Selection
We want it to be easy to gain information directly from the map. Whenever you change map modes, or have something “selected”, we update the map accordingly and allow you to often interact with the map itself. Clicking on the map on any given realm, will open that ruler’s character view. This in turn allows you to see rulers he is at war with, his allies, or direct vassals. All of this is shown directly on the map and is selectable, though you do not have to rely on finding it on the map; we still show relations and everything in the interface as well.

25_02_ruler_selection.jpg


This applies to everything we show on the map. Regardless of your map mode, you can always click to select the “entity” you are looking at. If you have the faith map mode active, you can click on a faith to open the interface for it, as well as seeing where its holy sites are located.

Realm Map Mode
Your bread and butter map mode is what we simply call the Realm map mode.
When zoomed in you’ll encounter what we call the detail level, and will see the map for what it is. Terrain of individual baronies, rivers, and holding graphics are all clearly visible.

25_03_realm_1.jpg


Zoom out a bit and you’ll transition into the Realms layer, your typical political map mode. Realms are clearly highlighted with their colour, allowing you to easily see all independent realms at a glance, while still showing the coat of arms of your direct vassals, to allow for easy realm management.

25_04_realm_2.jpg


Zoom out further and you’ll enter the paper map. This is the place to go for a rather fancy overview of the world (or excellent screenshots)! Only independent realms are shown, without any vassal breakdowns. For now, I’ll just tease you with a partial picture, as we’ll show the entire thing in a later DD. And yes, we got the mandatory sea monsters!

25_05_realm_3.jpg


Other Map Modes
Our other map modes remain consistent in the information they show as you zoom in and out, and do not have the level dependency of Realms. If you have the faith map mode open, you are gonna want to see faiths regardless of your zoom level. You’ll still get the spectacular paper map when you zoom further out, but the information shown on the map will remain the same.

De Jure - As you’d expect, we have dedicated map modes for showing the De Jure areas of duchies, kingdoms, and empires.

Faiths - Allows you to easily see what faiths are spread out around the world.

Cultures - For that nifty culture overview.

Houses - Since it’s a game about characters and dynasties, we want it to be easy to see which house is governing the different realms.

Counties - Highlights individual counties in their respective colour.

Terrain - Shows all terrain types in different colours, for that quick and easy overview of the dominant terrain in any given area. Very useful if you have several Men-at-Arms options available with different terrain bonuses.

Governments - The map mode for viewing what kind of government rulers have.

Development - Gives you an overview of what the development level is across the map.

25_06_house_map_mode.jpg


That’s it for today! I’ll be back next week with another map related entry. Where I plan to simply show you, well, everything regarding the scope of the map and how different parts of the world looks!
 
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Terrain
Let’s start with the terrain, which has a significant impact on several parts of the game. Different terrain types allow for different buildings to be constructed. For example, farmland allows for superior economy buildings, while mountainous terrain unlocks rather impressive defensive structures. They also have an effect on development, making development change faster or slower over time. Expect it to be a massive undertaking of developing the Sahara, while developing the fertile fields of India will be a much easier task.

As for combat, one of the most noticeable effects is that of combat width. When you are fielding a much larger army than your opponent, you will favour a high combat width, so you’ll want to seek to engage the enemy in plains or drylands. On the other hand, fighting in rough terrain like mountains or wetlands will restrict the number of units that can simultaneously engage the enemy, allowing small armies with powerful Men-at-Arms to truly excel. Terrain also affects army movement speed, along with the usual defensive bonus you would expect in rough terrain types, which is gained in the form of increased Advantage at the start of a battle.

The terrain types we have available are the following:
Farmlands - Has access to many different and powerful buildings, allowing you to easily customize your holding the way you want to. Paired with high development speed, farmland provinces are highly desirable to hold in your domain.
Floodplains - Another desirable terrain type used in certain areas, such as along the Nile. Similar in power to farmlands, but with some minor differences.
Plains - One of the most common terrain types, plains exist almost everywhere and provide a wide range of building options.
Drylands - A variant of plains with slightly different buildings available.
Desert - While deserts doesn’t offer a whole lot in terms of taxes, supply limit or development, it does have access to levies and a unique building chain increasing your number of available Knights.
Oasis - These exist only in certain areas. The terrain has access to similar buildings as desert, but without the penalties in supply limit or development.
Steppe - Mostly used by tribals on the wide steppe, this is where Horse Archers reign supreme. The steppe starts with low development, and has a significant penalty in development growth.
Forest - Has lower combat width and supply limit, but offers great buildings for improving archers and skirmishers.
Taiga - A variant found in the very northern parts of the map, with slightly lower combat width and supply limit than forest.
Jungle - Mainly found in India and offers even less combat width and supply limit. It does, however, have access to a unique building chain for improving your Knights and heavy cavalry.
Hills - Hills offers a small Advantage bonus in combat, and has access to both fortifications and decent tax buildings.
Mountains - Has access to great fortifications and defensive buildings, making it a long and risky business to siege down holdings.
Desert Mountains - Similar to mountains, but for desert areas (obviously), with lower supply limit, development growth, as well as a bonus that allows defending armies to take less casualties when retreating.
Wetlands - While wetlands still allow for some decent buildings, it’s a terrain type you don’t want to fight battles in if you can avoid it. Especially if there’s a risk of being on the losing side...
Hmm. Just asking, but how are the terrains coded? Did you code a set of modifiers for each and every one, or was it like:
Plains
  • Plains + X = Farmlands
  • Plains + X = Floodplains
Forest
  • Forest + X = Jungle
  • etc?
It would be fun to have modular terrain coding like you did with faiths. It makes editing county modifiers a lot easier - no idea about the graphics though.

Context Sensitive Selection
We want it to be easy to gain information directly from the map. Whenever you change map modes, or have something “selected”, we update the map accordingly and allow you to often interact with the map itself. Clicking on the map on any given realm, will open that ruler’s character view. This in turn allows you to see rulers he is at war with, his allies, or direct vassals. All of this is shown directly on the map and is selectable, though you do not have to rely on finding it on the map; we still show relations and everything in the interface as well.

View attachment 574072

This applies to everything we show on the map. Regardless of your map mode, you can always click to select the “entity” you are looking at. If you have the faith map mode active, you can click on a faith to open the interface for it, as well as seeing where its holy sites are located.
Yes, the quality of life feature I never knew I needed. Finally gone are the days that the religious map mode is mostly used for locating Jerusalem!

As a side note, the peninsula is a lot less rugged than IRL from the screenshot. I guess not having so many patches of impassable terrain are for balance reasons?
I do not believe we plan to cover buildings in any diary. At least not in detail. Is there something in particular you are curious about?
Will Georgia be able to hold out in their mountain castles with the mountains building chain in a hostile environment?
Whats the reasoning behind giving jungles and deserts a bonus to knights?
I guess that implies knights (unit) will cover elephant and camel riders on release. Or Knights (characters) are "buffed" by being put on an elephant or a camel.
Development is a value representing the infrastructure and technological advancements of a county, increasing taxes, levies, and supply limit.
So Development is CK3 Economy?
why only desert mountain and desert but no desert hill or coast
that the problem with old system
maybe give every province dry wet hot cold flat mountainous axis
Whoops, ninja'ed.
Good job with the heraldry, but bad job on the coat of arms frame. This one looks way too much 16th Century for my Medieval taste. Especially the weird Baroque shapes on the Dynasty coat of arms. What about a less imaginative approach, more based on iconography from before 1500?

charles-the-bold-ordinances-of-charles-the-bold-s-netherlands-circa-1473-whole-folio-charles-the-bold-duke-of-burgundy-receiving-the-oath-of-allegiance-from-his-military-captains-the-duke-is-seated-surrounded-by-his-court-he-receives-a-book-from-a-kneeling-knight-and-on-his-left-delivers-a-baton-to-another-knight-decorated-border-with-the-dukes-coat-of-arms-image-taken-from-ordinances-of-charles-the-bold-originally-publishedproduced-in-s-netherlands-circa-1473-source-add-36619-f5-language-french-R56M83.jpg
If you mean the golden leaves that cover this picture ... yeah. But even in CK2 these were reserved for Emperor-tier heraldry, which probably means you have to max out your level of splendor to get the "most prestigious" medieval golden leaves. And if your dynasty just isn't well-regarded enough, you are stuck with Baroque patterns. Maybe this is some roundabout encouragement for history buffs by the devs.
Can we get an update on the heraldry improvements? I see that you've reduced the number of tinctures to a reasonable amount (four colours, two metals) and most of the apparently random coats of arms are reasonably plausible. The Muslim ones look very good.
I'm not really sure about this. Five colors and two metals were in use for most of the time period, but as more and more people get a coat of arms, the number should probably be gradually inflated to CK2 levels.
So... no special economy buidings for mountains, hill or forests?

Can provinces change their type?
I'll assume that only certain types of provinces could change their type. Plains to Farmland, for instance. Certainly not Mountains to Farmland. Farming in mountains is prominently done in select river valleys.
Wetlands should have even bigger combat malus for heavy infantry/cavalry as they had a higher chance to get stuck in the mud. Using this advantage, a lighter pagan army could defeat an otherwise stronger feudal lord. That's how, for example, battle of Saule has been won.
And some units would have boni to counteract Wetland mali, such as elephants. There is a reason why they feature in such numbers in India after all - no elephants means no warmongering in monsoon season.
 
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I have a question regarding an old dev diary, but with this explaining terrain it got even more confusing for me.
- Is it possible to detach a part of the levy of my castle if I want to face a certain type of terrain, or am I obliged to raise them all the same in ck2?
- if i can separate a number of men, can i choose which ones i want to take? with this enabling types of strategies of the genre Imperator ??
-If yes to all of the above, what will the AI be like when you have these opportunities?
 
What is the resolution of the base map? I'm planning a mod, and since maps take a lot of time it would be nice to be able to prepare it ahead of launch. :)
 
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The paper map looks nice, but its style is somewhat more reminiscent of Renaissance maps than medieval maps. It's understandable though, because medieval style would probably make the map less readable. Medieval maps were more symbolistic. Some examples from the 11th century: Cotton world map, Beatus map, Kashgari map.

While it is true that the soil in most regions described as steppe is very fertile, it's very hard to farm in steppe conditions. Steppes are the way they are because they tend to be very arid and have little in the way of rainfall, preventing the growth of larger vegetation such as trees or larger shrubs. Russian settlement of the steppes initially took place entirely near rivers, where irrigation could be used to increase the area in which crops could be grown. Steppe soil is also extremely hard and dense. It's very difficult to break up without more sophisticated sorts of plough than existed in CK2's game period. So while steppe soil is indeed fertile, little of this could be 'unlocked' during CK2's time period and it is correct to treat it as low development and with a penalty to development growth.
Let's not forget that they are well suited for pastoral agriculture (so it seems a bit unfair to me to consider it only under the perspective of Russian settlements - other people lived in the steppes, with a different way of life). Different agriculture types aren't represented in CK3 and development doesn't indicate the fertility of the soil, it's basically an abstraction of how many people can be supported by km². So while steppes aren't unhabitable, you still need a lot more steppe to support the same population that is supported by farmlands.

In other words, steppes support a nomadic or semi-nomadic lifestyle, which is CK3 will likely be represented by bigger realms with lower development for nomads (even if they use tribal mechanics)
 
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I really love the different kinds of terrain are now getting defined "roles" that make them all provide some benefit that ultimately shapes the play style of the characters holding them.

Having impenetrable mountain fortresses only really matter if there is some sort of zone of control around them though. Otherwise, the enemy will just walk right past them. I get that you cannot take over a county without taking the castles, but what is to stop an army from just bypassing the county and going for a non-mountain province?
 
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I really love the different kinds of terrain are now getting defined "roles" that make them all provide some benefit that ultimately shapes the play style of the characters holding them.

Having impenetrable mountain fortresses only really matter if there is some sort of zone of control around them though. Otherwise, the enemy will just walk right past them. I get that you cannot take over a county without taking the castles, but what is to stop an army from just bypassing the county and going for a non-mountain province?
*Laughs in Armenian
 
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May I ask which map projection you are using for this game? And is the map going to "rotate" to simulate a 3D globe as it does in Imperator?
 
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Whats the reasoning behind giving jungles and deserts a bonus to knights?
Well, I get that from a gameplay perspective, you'd want to give these areas some purpose. And I appreciate that these areas won't be a no-brainer to avoid. However, do you have some story on why these areas give the mentioned boni? Some way to make them plausible? Do knights like it hot in any combination of dry/wet? Is this a Tatooine/Dagobah thing and if so, should we expect to face tusken raider or our inner fears there?
Well, don't forget about the Fremen from The Dune!

Anyway, I would guess that all these sci-fi desert warriors are inspired by real people...
I mean you can read that the people of the desert, although low in numbers, can be very resilient and good warriors.

Are the knights neccesarily meant here as military unit? I don't remember the devs talking about knights as a military unit like, for instance, heavy infantry or archers. So maybe these terrains just give you some specific bonuses for those knights, whatever they mean, but not for knights as a military unit AKA heavy cavalry... maybe?
 
Well, don't forget about the Fremen from The Dune!

Anyway, I would guess that all these sci-fi desert warriors are inspired by real people...
I mean you can read that the people of the desert, although low in numbers, can be very resilient and good warriors.

Are the knights neccesarily meant here as military unit? I don't remember the devs talking about knights as a military unit like, for instance, heavy infantry or archers. So maybe these terrains just give you some specific bonuses for those knights, whatever they mean, but not for knights as a military unit AKA heavy cavalry... maybe?
Going off tangent and following kalauer's note, weren't jungles more or less a source of exotic products? Maybe they might not matter much economically, but events like "Founding a Royal Zoo" (prestige & relationship bonus etc.) don't fire if you don't have a jungle county.

As for desert, well I dunno, you're the expert here. Anything besides summoning desert tribes to war worth mentioning?
 
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I see the Pyrenees and the Central System, but why not include the Cantabrian Mountains, and the Baetic and Iberian Systems, all of which are present in CK2?
If you look closely, the Cantabrian mountains are also impassible there in León, the Picos de Urbión segment of the Iberian System is impassible there in Navarre, the Estrela Range is impassible there in Galicia/Portugal, the Pyrenees go even further east than it seems at first and so does the Central System go further west, including the Sierra de Gata.

This is because when you control the entire area around the mountains, they get coloured by your nation.

In the dynasty map, you see the Sierra Nevada within the Baetic system is also impassable terrain.
 
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Are they fertile? Even in the modern day they're not being used for that. Modern Mongolia still supports the same kind of nomads they always did, except now they use drones and bikes for corralling their animals

Of course they are. Most of the steppe is in Russia (Rostov, Krasnodar oblast) and they grow crops there.

Quote from https://blog.oup.com/2013/04/environmental-history-russia-steppes/
"The steppes have few trees (in spite of attempts to plant them), low and unreliable supplies of water (my spring and summer in Rostov coincided with a serious drought), burning hot sun and winds in the summer, but very fertile soil that yielded bumper harvests in good years. "
 
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new forums: is there any way to see "dev responses only" in the thread? there was a button in old forums (2 weeks ago), but can't find it now..
 
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new forums: is there any way to see "dev responses only" in the thread? there was a button in old forums (2 weeks ago), but can't find it now..

^^^THIS!^^^

It was a wonderful functionality and in the new forums the dev posts look so much like regular posts that it is really needed for some way to "highlight" them.

EDIT: not to mention the removal of the nice golden banner with "stars" for those of us who have obsessively hoarded Paradox games over the years. :-(
 
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To further comment on the Iberian map,

I see Guadiana and Guadalquivir represented as major rivers, but not Tagus, Douro or Ebro.

This is a great oversight in my opinion, since if you look at any map of the Reconquista, these 3 rivers clearly outline the borders between Christian and Muslim kingdoms/taifas.
Indeed, not only that but those 3 rivers have the 3 largest basins in Iberia, so they are indeed very important rivers who should be added.

Iberian Peninsula.png
 
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What is the resolution of the base map? I'm planning a mod, and since maps take a lot of time it would be nice to be able to prepare it ahead of launch. :)

I second this question. It would be really nice to know the resolution used for the map files for preparing a map conversion mod ahead of time.
 
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To further comment on the Iberian map,

I see Guadiana and Guadalquivir represented as major rivers, but not Tagus, Douro or Ebro.

This is a great oversight in my opinion, since if you look at any map of the Reconquista, these 3 rivers clearly outline the borders between Christian and Muslim kingdoms/taifas.
I don't recall the reasoning for having these two specifically as major rivers. Generally speaking though, we want to have a somewhat even spread on major rivers, and can't really make every river we would like navigable. It's a point for improvement however, so I'll take note for future reference in case we ever end up doing changes to the area.

Wetlands should have even bigger combat malus for heavy infantry/cavalry as they had a higher chance to get stuck in the mud. Using this advantage, a lighter pagan army could defeat an otherwise stronger feudal lord. That's how, for example, battle of Saule has been won.
This is when Men-at-Arms specific terrain modifiers comes into play. Expect all heavy cavalry to have significant penalties in wetlands!

May I ask which map projection you are using for this game? And is the map going to "rotate" to simulate a 3D globe as it does in Imperator?
I don't remember the original projection we based ours on, but it has been slightly customized to better represent the game.
We do not rotate the camera as Imperator does.

new forums: is there any way to see "dev responses only" in the thread? there was a button in old forums (2 weeks ago), but can't find it now..
Not at the moment. It's one of those features that didn't get migrated properly to the new forums. I believe they are working on it though!
 
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