CO Word of the Week #2

[WaffleCheesebread]

To be honest, I believed that most of the community wanted the game to be harder on players. For example giving one final loan to bounce back from poverty like in Cities Skylines 1, and then leaving the players to their own devices.

I mean, it wouldn't be the only thing in the game that directly goes against nearly unanimous criticisms of the first game.

"This game is a city painter" was easily the most common problem people had with CS1, it wasn't exactly subtle people wanted their actions to matter more.

 

[DanforthRockafeller]

Disclaimer: I have not purchased Cites Skylines II yet but am a huge fan of the first one.

In reading through the post-launch forums these last few days and weeks, I have been super impressed with the dev team and CO leadership for their engagement, candor, and accountability. Though I have been on the fence about purchasing the game (and needing to save up some cash for it, to be honest) I am now WAY more likely to purchase soon! Looking forward to playing this as patches are released, and bugs are addressed. Thanks to @co_martsu and others for being present and vocal here!

 

[KhalahanFr]

I've been trying to post a comment here for an hour. Trying all possible variations. Impossible, it's blocked. It's the first time I encounter such level of censorship for a critical opinion, even with a polite message. Keep thanking them and saying how great they are. That's all they wanna hear apparently.

 

[BlitzPackage]

This is exactly the plan, and we're working as fast as we can to deliver the fixes.

I'm just relieved it's the dogs and not the children.

Just like Cities: Skylines this game also has fail conditions where the game helps the player so that there is no hard failure ending the progress of a city entirely. Is your feedback that the game should punish the player more for the mistakes? We can most certainly look into the difficulty level in the future and see if there could a hard mode implemented.

First, thank you for a great game. I have played it a few hours and this has the potential to be a genre defining if not altering game. Thank you also for reading our comments.

Second, I think what many folks want is a deep, challenging experience that matches what we expected based on the developer diaries. I would love to have to carefully think about and plan and balance the development of, for example, the amount of industrial and commercial opportunities in relation to the education level and capacities of my population. I want to experience serious problems in the city if, for example, I have a highly educated population, too many industrial zones, not enough workers, and then there is a ripple effect as my economy collapses due to lack of tax revenue from businesses, commercial unable to get products, and citizens perhaps leaving the city in droves and service collapses making the problem worse.

In real life, cities suffer major losses in business and citizens leaving and steep increases in poverty and blight if they are not managed carefully and if circumstances make the problems worse.

If building a city in the game is challenging and fun, that will make me want to play it more to actually succeed.

We want challenge and difficulty that puts serious pressure on our ability to balance the various needs of the city to achieve our goals. This will further drive excitement in using the game and exhilaration when our cities actually succeed. The chance of failure makes success more fun and makes the game more rewarding.

Thanks again for the work on this game. Lots of us enjoy the game, we just need it to be way more challenging because that will increase the fun factor.

 

[yonkobg]

the isue is with the cars stoping in the midle of higways and then continue which creates traffic jams and the second isue is with the changing in last minute lanes which is also crates traffic jams plus i cant find a solution for high rents and the demand for midle end high denisty residential and i think there is isue with finding new students i have like 30000 elementery school and like1500 highscool and around 3000 in colege and 2000 in university which is not a realistic

 

[ozk12]

I've been trying to post a comment here for an hour. Trying all possible variations. Impossible, it's blocked. It's the first time I encounter such level of censorship for a critical opinion, even with a polite message. Keep thanking them and saying how great they are. That's all they wanna hear apparently.

And just like that you managed to get through the "censorship". And you weren't even polite! Amazing.

 

[TheMax85]

@co_martsu
First of all thank you for everything that you and your team did and do now. CS1 was fun for many years.
And I am sure you will fix all the issues and we will have fun for another couple of years.

Many people hear are asking for a "hard mode". I partially agree that the game support way to much. And I can understand it from the combination of bugs and ballancing issues. But to be honest, I don't want to dig to much deep into the economy of the game. I mostly want to build a beautiful and functioning city.

But the current condition of ballancing and magic player support just doesn't give me the feeling of beeing a successful or bad major. It instead creates frustration. My city is growing all the time, I have more and more money while the game tells me that I am only loosing money. So I try to correct the income-expence ballance. But I cannot really do that. Because:

a) The game does not really tell me well what is wrong. How can I see the number of homeless? Or what are the prices for products?
b) The magic player support feature causes that I never see if my attempts to correct were good or not

Then they all complain about for example bad healthcare. You check the info views and notice that only 3 of 10 ambulances are used. Than you check the other views and see that your city spans far and the distance becomes to much for them. Ok... You might want to build more clinics or the big hospiutal. But wait, isn't that what the upgrades where for? The hospital has more than enough capacity and the issue is just that people just live to far away. But as the magic causes that you have no idea how the money works, you never know if you can affort another hospital or not.

From my point of view next to all the real bugs there are some major issues in ballancing. Other I can't explain why things happen like people preferre to use a taxi with a base fee of 50 over a free bus line... Because even the most comfy retired person wont want to pay that much for a taxi if the bus is free.

 

[tamsi99]

I wish you could hold Shift or something to make the turn limitations per lane instead of the entire road. Often want to stop right turns on lanes on the left.

Fully agree. Very much needed also with roundabouts. I had it several times where I most certainly could have easily resolved a traffic jam by a per-lane direction modification (2 right, 2 straight/left instead of only 1 right, etc.) but was forced to do massive road upgrades to enforce more lanes for a certain direction.

 

[tamsi99]

It seems some players dislike the so called failsafes that prevent a full corruption of the city and would like to see the difficulty increased to the point of "game over". This is something we're open to think about.

Thanks for having this dialogue, appreciate the weekly updates. Lots has been said already but I'd like to share my point as well. In my opinion it's not about "hard mode" or "game over" in that sense. It is about a consistent simulation, as others have pointed out already. If a simulation is tweaked to only give you a positive outcome, it is not a simulation any more. All we want is a consistent simulation which also shows the negative impact of wrong decisions, and not magically hides or corrects wrong decisions by "failsafes" or by throwing lots of money at you.

I respectfully disagree on the deepness of the simulation, especially when comparing to Cities: Skylines.

Well, I think here we have the problem. I fully agree with you that CS2 has a much more detailed and deeper simulation. Theoretically. In the background. Problem is, I as a player of the game do not really see and feel it in any way. It does not matter really what I do. I always have enough money and my city grows no matter what I do. I can afford expensive universities and large firestations in the smallest cities, even an international airport is easy to finance with a 30k population village. I have never seen citizens leaving my village, or shops / industries closing. Users even demonstrated that you can generate taxes with 0 population, and you can have functioning shops without any goods, customers or any road (outside-)connections. I am sure you will agree with us that a meaningful, realistic simulation should not allow this.

Problem is, all those "failsafes" render the complex simulation irrelevant. Again, it does not matter what I do, the city is always happy and growing. Zero challenge, no visible impact of the simulation, never a bad day. And both the government subsidies and milestone cash payments seem to be weak measures to either balance an unbalanced simulation or to simply make sure you cannot fail.

A deep, well-balanced and consistent simulation would not require you to get milestone cash and subsidies to be successful. Building a university or airport should hardly be possible in a small village and if you manage to do it nevertheless, then it should get you in deep financial trouble, requiring you to increase taxes massively, which would hardly be enough to close the gap and people would leave the village due to high taxes. Not producing enough resources / goods within the city should punish you financially in a noticeable way because it should be more expensive to import it (longer transportation is more expensive, as you wrote many times in dev diaries). But it looks like it does not matter if you produce anything in your city or not, you still easily have sufficient money and happy shops and happy people. Again, no challenge, no visible impact on bad decision, hence the real simulation becomes irrelevant to the player.

I am not the type who wishes huge challenges when trying to build my city. I want to mostly focus on developing my growing city and having fun with detailing it. Still, when I do something stupid or inconsistent (buying too expensive services / infrastructure, clearly unbalancing Residential/Commercial/Industry, etc. or messing up access / traffic to work, commercial, recreation, etc.), it should have consequences. Feedback that people become unhappy that they cannot find any shops, or they lose job because they cannot reach the work place due to commute being way too long, shops closing without customers or goods, etc.. and all that again having impact on happiness, tax income and people / buisness leaving, etc. Unfortunately, none of this I see happening in CS2 currently. The "deep simulation" seems irrelevant for the outcome of the game.

 

[tagelicht]

Thanks for the good work Keep the updates coming and don't listen too much to the negative people

 

[circuitfarmer]

Thanks CO for the update. Glad that some of the issues with garbage management are being addressed.

Just like Cities: Skylines this game also has fail conditions where the game helps the player so that there is no hard failure ending the progress of a city entirely. Is your feedback that the game should punish the player more for the mistakes? We can most certainly look into the difficulty level in the future and see if there could a hard mode implemented.

Just want to add my 2 cents here -- many others already have, but I wholeheartedly agree that the game, in general, needs to be much more challenging to really be a contender in the city builder genre.

It isn't necessarily the mechanics themselves that are causing a lot of the disappointment we hear about in the forums, in my view. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with things like Govt Subsidies or outside connections handling services. What is a huge problem, however, is when things like Govt Subsidies are applied to the budget without any reason given, nor any way to know how the amount was calculated, nor any way to know how to avoid this hand-holding -- and of course, no way to simply disable it. The game could be improved immensely overnight with a couple of toggle switches in the Options. That's literally all it would take to improve the situation in terms of challenge.

I would also argue against the other assertion from CO that it's the "more hardcore player" base that desires these changes. A game with no failure condition is not fun to play, because it plays itself. As it stands, C:S2 is far less challenging than C:S1, and more crucially, it lacks that "it factor" of a mechanic that nudges you into continuing play.

Just when I think maybe I'm seeing it and there's a little challenge on the way -- some problem solving to do, as advertised in the game's description -- poof! it goes away because I've just gotten some infusion of cash for free, or some outside connection has handled a problem of local service so well that I may as well have not even built it up. The hand-holding is so ubiquitous and unavoidable at the moment that it destroys the satisfaction of having built up the city.

 

[KhalahanFr]

And just like that you managed to get through the "censorship". And you weren't even polite! Amazing.

First, my message is polite. It's not because you're unhappy and express your anger that you're not being polite. There is no insult or rude word / expression here. Just clear disappointment.
Second, NO, I didn't manage to get through censorship. My message above is empty because I could not develop the argumentation I prepared. Unfortunately, they know very well what they don't want people to read here, questions that should not be asked, truth that should not be told.
It's ok, I'll share my thoughts (politely as always) where they won't censor it. That's too bad, I really wanted a discution about the most important concern expressed by the players besides the bugs that will be quickly taken care of. We (the community) could have helped work through that issue. Now I know what to expect.

 

[SanicK]

Thanks CO for the update. Glad that some of the issues with garbage management are being addressed.



Just want to add my 2 cents here -- many others already have, but I wholeheartedly agree that the game, in general, needs to be much more challenging to really be a contender in the city builder genre.

It isn't necessarily the mechanics themselves that are causing a lot of the disappointment we hear about in the forums, in my view. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with things like Govt Subsidies or outside connections handling services. What is a huge problem, however, is when things like Govt Subsidies are applied to the budget without any reason given, nor any way to know how the amount was calculated, nor any way to know how to avoid this hand-holding -- and of course, no way to simply disable it. The game could be improved immensely overnight with a couple of toggle switches in the Options. That's literally all it would take to improve the situation in terms of challenge.

I would also argue against the other assertion from CO that it's the "more hardcore player" base that desires these changes. A game with no failure condition is not fun to play, because it plays itself. As it stands, C:S2 is far less challenging than C:S1, and more crucially, it lacks that "it factor" of a mechanic that nudges you into continuing play.

Just when I think maybe I'm seeing it and there's a little challenge on the way -- some problem solving to do, as advertised in the game's description -- poof! it goes away because I've just gotten some infusion of cash for free, or some outside connection has handled a problem of local service so well that I may as well have not even built it up. The hand-holding is so ubiquitous and unavoidable at the moment that it destroys the satisfaction of having built up the city.

+1. Well said.

 

[GrumpyBeagle]

Thanks CO for the update. Glad that some of the issues with garbage management are being addressed.



Just want to add my 2 cents here -- many others already have, but I wholeheartedly agree that the game, in general, needs to be much more challenging to really be a contender in the city builder genre.

It isn't necessarily the mechanics themselves that are causing a lot of the disappointment we hear about in the forums, in my view. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with things like Govt Subsidies or outside connections handling services. What is a huge problem, however, is when things like Govt Subsidies are applied to the budget without any reason given, nor any way to know how the amount was calculated, nor any way to know how to avoid this hand-holding -- and of course, no way to simply disable it. The game could be improved immensely overnight with a couple of toggle switches in the Options. That's literally all it would take to improve the situation in terms of challenge.

I would also argue against the other assertion from CO that it's the "more hardcore player" base that desires these changes. A game with no failure condition is not fun to play, because it plays itself. As it stands, C:S2 is far less challenging than C:S1, and more crucially, it lacks that "it factor" of a mechanic that nudges you into continuing play.

Just when I think maybe I'm seeing it and there's a little challenge on the way -- some problem solving to do, as advertised in the game's description -- poof! it goes away because I've just gotten some infusion of cash for free, or some outside connection has handled a problem of local service so well that I may as well have not even built it up. The hand-holding is so ubiquitous and unavoidable at the moment that it destroys the satisfaction of having built up the city.

Definitely agreed.

 

[Simulati0n]

I've really enjoyed the game so far, though there's still a lot of work to be done before it can be called a finished (or should I say continuously evolving) product but I'm sure with time it will get there.

Despite the obvious performance issues, there's a lot that has been done right. I've found Cities: Skylines II easier to get into compared to Cities: Skylines. The user interface feels more polished, aside from a few quirks. Building cities in the newer version feels somehow more rewarding and I would also argue is more goal-oriented. Colossal Order has done a great job with that.

And also, I can't thank you enough for making the buildable areas a lot bigger compared to the predecessor. I'm personally not that much into modding, so having that built-in is awesome.

If I can request something small, I would love to have an option to turn chirper notification sound off. Thanks.

Keep it up and the updates coming, I have faith in you.

 

[alcarcalimo2364]

tl;dr: much more than being punished by the game for our mistakes, what we need to begin with is to understand when and why we make mistakes…


What we need is much more than a game over screen, it's the ability to learn from our mistakes. Which of course means that we should be able to make mistakes. But it also and mostly means that we need to understand them. Meaning more feedback in general: more info about what is produced, needed, lost, blocked, missing, moving, etc. And also, as said before, a better balancing on the simulated aspects, so that what we see better reflects what happens….

This hits the nail on the head for me. In fact, I don’t even really think failsafes are an issue. I don’t really care if businesses import to keep things afloat for example. What I want to understand, is how I can make them stop importing. What do I need to make the city function efficiently on my terms. As it stands now, there is just simply not enough information given to the player to fix issues in your city.

I don’t really mind the hand holding. I don’t mind if the city prevents it self from collapsing. What I do want to know is that if there are significant economic/traffic/health/education/etc… issues, that I have the agency, information and the tools to correct them, regardless if the city will save itself.

 

[tamsi99]

I don’t really care if businesses import to keep things afloat for example. What I want to understand, is how I can make them stop importing. What do I need to make the city function efficiently on my terms. As it stands now, there is just simply not enough information given to the player to fix issues in your city.

I agree, assuming we are thinking the same when writing this. I am absolutely fine if businesses start importing goods / resources in case they don't get it in the city. The simulation, however, has to react to this consistently. CO always stresses the point that transportation distance effects the transportation cost which impacts the cost of the goods. So, importing goods is more expensive for businesses, and I need to see the impact of that. It means that they make less money with these goods. Or they raise the price for consumers, which means the citizens (or other businesses consuming the goods) have less money for recreation, luxury, accommodation.

So, for example, one effect could be that (some) citizens cannot afford to pay the rent for low density homes any more and need to move into smaller apartments. Or move out of town. So I would expect to see citizens abandoning low densitiy homes, with demand for low density homes getting lower, but demand for high density apartment blocks to go up. Also, I would like then to get an info to understand why this is happening. So I can decide then if I am fine with it and just change the appearance of the city accordingly, or if I want to produce those services / goods / whatever in the city and enable citizens to stay in low density homes. Or maybe I just lower the taxes to allow citizens to have more money available (if I can afford to do so). Plus, as another effect, I should see more traffic bringing in the goods. Be it cargo vans, freight trains or cargo ships, and I should see that somewhere in the statistics of cargo ports, etc. as well. And so on.

I assume this is exactly what you meant and if yes, then I fully agree with your statement. But then, in my opinion, this is no "handholding" or "failsafe" as such at all, it is just a consistent simulation reacting appropriately to what the city has or does not have.

As mentioned earlier, I don't need and don't want a "game over" scenario, and I don't want a "hard mode" where it is a big challenge to even establish a working city. But I want to see consistent impact to my city from whatever I am doing. It is fine, however, if the city gets in bad shape, more expensive housing gets abandoned, people leaving town because they don't have a job any more (or cannot reach a job location with reasonable effort any more) or not enough money and so on. I think this will give us player enough of a challenge to build exactly the city we want, because then we need to do exactly what is required to get that city we want. At the moment, however, it does not matter what we do, we nearly always get the city we want with no hurdles or issues.

 

[MrMcQue]

The dev diaries have been written by us, the devs, and we approve the messaging there even with the marketing department wanting to make everything sounds like it's the best thing ever. And I get it, it's their job to sell the features and the game even with the risk that expectations will run high. With that said we do think Cities: Skylines II is a better game than its predecessor. It has issues, but we are working on them.
It's unfortunate that the simulation didn't answer to your expectations and I fully respect and appreciate your feedback. It also sounds like there is room for improvement on the player feedback in the game, since some things might be left unexplained. I can only hope that with the upcoming bugfixes the game is something you can enjoy despite this initial disappointment.

Could you maybe work it out with the Forum admins that you get dev status on pdxplaza?

It makes it possible to sort for developer replies with the toggle "show dev replies only" when their posts and comments are marked as such.

 

[co_avanya]

Could you maybe work it out with the Forum admins that you get dev status on pdxplaza?

It makes it possible to sort for developer replies with the toggle "show dev replies only" when their posts and comments are marked as such.

This should be sorted now, however, it doesn't apply to existing posts, unfortunately. But going forward, you should be able to see our responses when sorting by dev replies.

 

[∆tlαntic4]

@co_martsu

Thanks a lot for the patch 1.0.13

I am still getting a ton of High Rent and Not Enough Customers popups, even after 1.0.13, will be a fix for that?

The cargo train issue will be fixed in the next patch?

If possible, we would like to know a spoiler of what the next issues will be focused on by the team