CO Word of the Week #3

[TheMax85]

A lot has been said already, so I don’t repeat it. I feel pity for the CO team to see all this storm of complaining but it’s self made.

The condition is really by far not what we expect from a full price game and I hope that CO learned their lesson just like CD Project had to learn it. I just hope we don’t have to wait as long as with Cyberpunk to finally get something that works fine.

The console guys will hate me for that, I know. But all the industry is focusing on consoles these days making unnecessary restrictions to their games and spending crazy time on console special implementations. I don’t want to know how long only implementing working controller inputs took. And I bet that there are X other things that had to be done because of some console. See DSSL3 for example. The DLL is in it but not used. Instead some pretty old AMD mechanism that works on consoles is there.

CS1 was great and launched without console support. They had time to create a great game for one platform, then ported it to others. Targeting multiple platforms at once is like hell on earth. Everyone who ever did an app that should run on the Web and the two mobile OS knows what I talk about.

Forgive me to say that dear console users but this type of game is a natural born PC citizen and therefore should be designed for PC launch first.

As this stupid Professor in the “high rent” advertisement of the game says: It’s a matter of priorities!

 

[Skeksis25]

All this basically makes your Behind The Scenes & Developer Diary announcements very misleading particularly:
" First and foremost, our in-game editor is currently in its beta phase and will launch shortly after release. "

There's loads more. Looking back through a bunch of Behind The Scenes & Developer Diaries we're not getting the bees knees you told us it would be.

I've got from briefly enjoying the game to disappointment to now feeling completely ripped off.

Yeah, this right here. They should have said "a few months after release" rather than "shortly after release". That feels intentionally deceptive. Telling people that performance is going to suck literally days before release. All this deep simulation and most realistic city builder stuff. All of this feels like the goal was to trick the audience.

Unless they knew a while ago that this was the end goal and they don't really have plans to try and sell DLC, but instead are ready to just cut bait and shutter the company after they have collected enough money from suckers, I would hope they have plans for some sort of make good or re-earning goodwill. Release a map every week or 2 till the asset editor is out. Offer the first DLC for free. I would hope they have plans to earn trust back again.

I hadn't posted a review on Steam cause I trusted them to earnestly back up their words. But now that it looks like it was all just deception, its time to review.

 

[Seth C Triggs]

You also promised to be able to build a huge city, if 300k is considered huge in a world of 10million+ cities, but yet get a few hundred people waiting at a train station and the whole simulation grinds to a halt. Have the execs created such a toxic environment that the devs couldn't honestly tell you it wasn't ready or were the execs just not willing to listen and change because they set a deadline and they think the world will end if its not met, which wouldn't have been the case?

You'll never get cities of 10 million+ with an agent-based simulation. City-builders are one of the worst to develop.

I play TheoTown, which is 2D on an orthogonal grid, and it uses pixel graphics. I achieved 1 million there in a city fairly easy but that's a lot of abstractions.

The only way a game like this would be able to get to 10 million (or even a million) is if numerous abstractions are taken and they do the simulation "by spreadsheet." My city right now is at 360K and is still lagged but on the edge of playable. I have way too many pedestrians and because limits are removed, I almost surely have upwards of 400,000 to 500,000 objects (movers) that are calculating pathfinding decisions. There's just too many agents for modern hardware to handle effectively.

Probably what would have to happen is they have to have different regimes similar to how Airbus autopilot works, so there's a normal law, and then there's alternate law when other systems fail. When the simulation starts to lag, they might have to switch to an Alternate Law that's either simpler pathfinding, or they take a sample of routes, draw a few traffic jams to show players where a problem, but essentially destroy objects out of view.

And that's not easy.

 

[Duke49th]

Seeing how everyone here (and everywhere else) is very disappointed and upset with this news about mods I wonder if it isn’t possible to just patch those free asset packs into the base game.

Everyone is going to download those anyway as they are officially endorsed.

Can’t be that hard if they are ready anyway and we don’t have to have mod support right away but have some variety in the game and something to ‘ease the pain’ and bring back some goodwill and positive community vibes . It will also helping the GeForce players out there. Triple win!

Or is this yet another ‘Marketing said no!’ answer?

Same concept as the pre-order bonuses that where patched in on MS Store in a few days, but with asset packs.

I would love to hear the CEO or Avanya her thoughts on this idea! (Which I think is a good one )

I am no modder and do not have the most knowledge here.

But from the Wiki my understanding is that we could have mods already if they would just change the file/folder structure a bit and allow therefore "offline" modding (or manually downloaded mods, whatever you call it)

That is, unless they have overhauled the entire mod integration. I am already wondering why you would need an Editor for code modding (see the announcement)

Right now all we have is a very few limited mods that can be used due to .dll injection with BepInEx. And I'm not comfortable with that for safety reasons, even tho I am using Linux - BepInEx is open source, but not sure what a "malicious mod" could do with that.

If they delay the official stuff so long, why not give us the ability to at least mod the game manually!?

Shouldn't be much work on their side.

 

[Sovetskysoyuz]

What should CO do right now? They can't make a magical trick to fix the mistakes over night.

Something they could do right now is acknowledge that public statements by CO and Paradox staff in the period around release like "days not hours", "soon", "shortly", and "the editor is in beta" created a strong perception that modding capabilities would be out in November, and now suddenly that's all out the window, the asset editor isn't in beta yet and won't be for some time, and modding (plus the Region Packs that were also supposed to be "coming soon") won't really get going until sometime in the new year. They can't go back in time to clarify but they could certainly acknowledge the misleading statements. Right now the closest they've come is a "sorry you were confused".

They could also offer an explanation for why they won't open up the modding beta, as people have already started hacking the game to play with the editors anyway. Maybe there's a good explanation for why they want to keep the beta so tightly under wraps, but it would still help to share that explanation.

 

[recar521]

I get that there lots of people are upset and pissed off about the Editor delay and for sure statements were made by CO that were misleading at best about when it would be available. But what good are custom maps and assets in a broken simulation? There's still so much basic game play that doesn't work. You can't build a functioning city on any map or with any assets when cargo, post, traffic AI and economy just don't work. I think most of us have tweaked our way around the low performance issues. But the simulation bugs are making the game unplayable. That's where the focus should be.

 

[Duke49th]

All the goodwill fostered with the first game has been thrown right out the window. Im hugely disappointed with myself for falling for the pre order hype. I wanted the pre order bonuses, but I also expected a fully working game, not an alpha test. Its not like you guys have ever made a city builder before.....

And some say that they have fixed CS1 over time and therefore we should be just patient.
I just checked my purchase history and I see that I bought CS1 just 4 days after release.
And I know for sure that the game was not in the same bad state as CS2 is. And back then, they did not marketed the game as they did now and broke promises.

Otherwise I would've been frustrated the same way.

I don't mind performance bugs on day 1 in such a game, I don't mind some annoying bugs. But this here is way too much to ignore.

On a side note:
I am also heavily disappointed by most content creators that got the game for free. There is only 1 honest in-depth review (that I am aware of) - from a guy who bought the game after release (sadly it took him a long time to test everything, so he released the video just a few days ago).

 

[winnipeg21]

I'm on the lookout for a city-building game that really pushes the boundaries of difficulty—a hard mode that injects an element of risk, pushing players to think strategically and find ways to maximize profits. I'm particularly drawn to the idea of a complex economic system involving the importation of local goods and navigating the fluctuating prices of exported goods in large quantities. Despite understanding the challenges you're currently tackling, I'm more than willing to wait for those fixes if it means the addition of a truly challenging hard mode to the game.

Honestly I'd recommend Skylines 1 with a few mods. Skylines 2, albeit it with major bugs, is still vanilla and early exploration in what can be done. Skylines 1 tho has a large modding community and some features you wanted

 

[Pixelclone]

I'm pretty sure that CO will fix every bug and also the performance issues

Really? I have a bad feeling they'll abandon performance once everybody is distracted and has forgotten down the line. I even think most of the bugs will simply become something we have to deal with.

 

[Duke49th]

I read every post under this WOW. And I'm starting to be afraid. Not because of the game, more about the Community. I Also preordered the Ultimate Edition. I Also spent 90€ for this all. And yes, I'm also sad and annoyed about the state of the game. ...

BUT ... I don't think the harsh comments are fair. Of Course its a uncomfortable situation. Not only for us, also for CO and the DEVS.

TBH from day 1 there are people complaining. Over and over again with the same complainments. And in a super rude way. Some names I even ignore in this forum in the meanwhile bc I think they are trolls. Never heard anything constructive from them. And every try to talk with them doesn't make them accept the reality and looking forward to make it better. Its almost attacking.

What should CO do right now? They can't make a magical trick to fix the mistakes over night. The probably wrong decisions can't be reset. I'm sure some of them would like to have a Delorean to go "Back to the Post Release".

What do you expect? That they give money back? Even with the offer from CO I wouldn't want it back, bc it could mean that C:S2 don't get any support anymore. But the fundament is to good and the team behind it is very passionate. Instead of attacking CO and to assume bad motives, it makes more sense to keep calm, report bugs and let the DEVS fix those problems.

Even if the situation is now very disapointing, it's nothing what can't be fixed in the next month. And I'm pretty sure CO is already thinking how to compansate this legitimate frustration. But the way how some people express there frustration doesn't help. Not the community and also not CO. It even doesn't help themselve.

TBH If I would be a DEV I would loose the joy to fix stuff for such unforgiving players. Even if I know there are lot witch still have a lot of fun with this game, even in the current state.

Sorry needed to be said. Now the hater can hate me and complain about me. less focus on CO for a moment

It's funny. You do not realize that this is a business, right?

They're not modders spending their free time to give people joy.
They make millions with a game like this. And the entire gaming industry is a multi-billion dollar business with mostly just money in their mind.
And the responsible people behind all this (including paradox) couldn't care for you and me at all.
Obviously.

Well, obviously not obvious enough lol.

What do you expect? That they give money back?

Yes. If they would have a spine, they would do so. Yes. I've seen it before. (e.g. with Elite Dangerous)

Even with the offer from CO I wouldn't want it back, bc it could mean that C:S2 don't get any support anymore.

Not true. Not only do they have a contract with MS for a console release. It would just mean less revenue/profit for the meantime.

Nothing more, nothing less.

And I'm pretty sure CO is already thinking how to compansate this legitimate frustration.

They can't. They won't. They are not even willing or allowed to openly communicate with us.

Now the hater can hate me

Oh please. Nobody is hating (you). You have no clue what hate is.
Disagreement/Disappointment/Frustration and "thumbs down" are not hate.

Edit: I bet the Devs are more frustrated with their management/CEO etc. than with any "rantings" going on here in the forum. I say that because I worked for 7 years for Amazon in finance/b2b and know how all this nonsense works, how disconnected management is, how greedy the top is, how irresponsible and terrible the entire system is built. I've seen companies going bankrupt because of this irresponsibility, company owners insulting us for things we're not responsible but coming from the top - because "SOP", because "metrics", because "lets have a useless meeting first" yada yada.... We were highly frustrated with the management, not the customers (vendors) who rightfully so were totally frustrated with "us". I liked my job, I totally hated the management.

 

[DerFremde]

The condition is really by far not what we expect from a full price game and I hope that CO learned their lesson just like CD Project had to learn it. I just hope we don’t have to wait as long as with Cyberpunk to finally get something that works fine.

Cyberpunk at release was nowhere near as broken as Cities Skylines 2 is currently. On PC it was working mostly fine.

 

[DerFremde]

This makes me nervous. The weekly patches have been great but they’re fixing a handful of minor things in each one. There are far more than just a handful of minor bugs left to be fixed. Unless this week’s patch includes about 5 times the amount of bug fixes as the previous ones, I’m not looking forward to a slower release cadence.

They will probably review if it is still in their business interest to put a lot of work into the game. I wouldn't be surprised if CS2 has a MUCH shorter life span than the first game.

 

[RA1981]

Really? I have a bad feeling they'll abandon performance once everybody is distracted and has forgotten down the line. I even think most of the bugs will simply become something we have to deal with.

Well, I'm sure because they did a great job on CS1. Yes, CS1 was released in a better state, but it also received many patches also containing some free stuff. I think they'll do the same on CS2. If they abandon CS2 or any of its current problems no one will buy any game from them in the future. That's a high risk for a company with ~30 people.

 

[Ekim101]

It's funny. You do not realize that this is a business, right?

They're not modders spending their free time to give people joy.
They make millions with a game like this. And the entire gaming industry is a multi-billion dollar business with mostly just money in their mind.
And the responsible people behind all this (including paradox) couldn't care for you and me at all.
Obviously.

Well, obviously not obvious enough lol.



Yes. If they would have a spine, they would do so. Yes. I've seen it before. (e.g. with Elite Dangerous)



Not true. Not only do they have a contract with MS for a console release. It would just mean less revenue/profit for the meantime.

Nothing more, nothing less.


They can't. They won't. They are not even willing or allowed to openly communicate with us.



Oh please. Stop the drama. Nobody is hating (you). You have no clue what hate is.
Disagreement/Disappointment/Frustration and "thumbs down" are not hate.

I know it's a business. Everything in this world is business. My experiences with paradox and CO games is just that I never got disappointed ... At least if I think in long terms.

And as I said. I'm also very disappointed right now and feel the same frustration in some points. But some people really ... They are haters. There is constructive criticism and there is blaming. And not only in this thread there are some people who just blame and attack. And this is more contra-productive as helpful.

I always say the sound makes the music. Critic yes, but it needs to be said in a constructive way.

 

[avguy2]

Cyberpunk at release was nowhere near as broken as Cities Skylines 2 is currently. On PC it was working mostly fine.

On PC Cyberpunk was a bugged mess. Just like CS2 the devs massively overhyped and underdelivered. And if that comparison fits it's not looking great for CS2: only years later Cyberpunk sort of recovered but to this date it remains far behind its potential.

 

[Bradley271]

The Editor that some people have been able to access in the live version of the game is an early version lacking features and functionality. It is not ready for use and I do not recommend using it as we cannot guarantee maps created with it will work correctly. As previously mentioned, our goal with the Editor is to provide you will all the same options that we have when creating content for the game, which also includes setting up custom climates and weather for maps.

I understand that the current editor is an early version, and does not fit the standards that CO wishes to acheive. However, it's still functional, and- for an incomplete feature- allows for a lot of map customization, if the posts from other players who unlocked the feature are to be trusted. Is it buggy? Yes, but it's not that far from being usable
This brings up another point. While the maps currently in the game aren't bad, they're limited in variety, and the majority of them have lots of surprisingly hostile terrain. This is an issue for replayability and is especially problematic if you want to replicate specific real-world locations.
With this in mind, would it not be viable to prioritize getting the map editor working, release the editor/mod platform with those features unlocked, and then move on to the asset/code editors? It wouldn't be the big splash that the asset editor/region packs are meant to be, but it would give us options that are sorely lacking in the current version and would presumably be ready much sooner.

 

[Back2KickAss]

Thanks for the diligent communication drum beat. We appreciate!


By the way, performance is fine enough for now, I can enjoy the game no prob on an mid-level several years old PC. The initial fps frenzy at release was unjustified and got fixed in no time (lessons learned in setting the default graphic options all maxed out!).


As others have said, please-please-please do not assign all your team on heavy graphic tweaks and keep giving us quick patches on easy fixes while improving the simulation regularly.

 

[DanielR80]

@co_martsu I was tempted to pre-order this game after watching the dev diaries, but the radios and asset packs from the ultimate edition didn't seem worth the extra 40 Euros (I like to listen to my music, and use the assets I want... oh wait, we don't have any asset mods yet ). Now I'm really glad I didn't pre-order.

Tested the game with the 1 Euro game pass for two weeks, and frankly, in the current state, the game is barely worth that. Bad performance, bugs, fail safes that make the economy feel fake, bugs, traffic reduction based on population, bugs, missing features, bugs... And now, even less updates...

Heck, you could push daily updates for newly fixed lod's and improve performance just by a little bit every day... I understand gameplay fixes can take a bit longer, and fixes to the engine problems (like culling, as pointed out by blog.paavo.me) take even longer... Speaking of that blog, care to explain why InstaLOD wasn't just used on all items?

SteamDb shows the number of active players is dropping fast, from 100k to 20k in three weeks. Less than one update a week is just not acceptable at the moment!

 

[unmerged(524934)]

@co_martsu wow - that's a real slap in the face. OK so now it looks like everything you guys teased wasn't even ready?

IRL I've done a lot of business with a lot of Finns, I've always found them to be tough negotiators but at the end of the day, you shook hands and you got what you agreed.

Finns are efficient: they follow schedules, meet deadlines, and plan ahead – and they expect others to do the same. They also take words at face-value. If you say you’ll do something by a given time, people expect you to do it.

At work, employers trust employees to put forth their best effort and expect people to complete projects correctly and on-time. If the job gets done and the quality is sufficient, managers usually remain hands-off and let the work speak for itself. And if a workplace issue crops up, it helps to remember that Finns are pragmatic problem-solvers. Talk to your team or manager, and they will help you address the issue. In Finland, it’s OK to ask for help.

Work culture

Finland is #1 in skills development at work in Europe.

www.workinfinland.com

We shook hands with you for £79 and this is what we get.

EDIT: On reflection... how about an amnesty? For everyone who's over the 2 hour Steam refund but genuinely feels aggrieved at the smoke and mirrors in the run up to release, why not just authorise refunds - I mean, do you really want a bunch of disaffected players hanging around moaning? Or let me guess, "the refund system is out of our hands, sorry we just get to keep your money, thanks bye".

 

[SoCal Epi]

@co_martsu How about an apology at the very least? Stop with the rhetoric. This community is too intelligent for such actions and baseless verbiage, not to mention the utter lack of clarity.

Please read the comments that resulted in your inadequate post and apologize to the community. Can you at least admit the release was a total cluster? It literally seems like every simulation function that you hyperbolized pre-release was broken from the very start (e.g., garbage, education, export). You had to have known this, yet seemingly thank the community (us players) for bringing a bug to your attention. Isn't that your job. We paid money to purchase your game but we are now working for you to test the simulation and performance.

I think the entire community who has shared issues will at least be slightly assuaged if you own up to you mistakes, admit them transparently, and apologize to the community.