CO Word of the Week #3

[Kedryn]

Paradox has a track record of pushing out half-baked games. Victoria 3 is only close to “full-release” now at 1.5 after a whole year.

I think it’s important to remember this debacle is created by business greed and deception, not the competence of the developer staff who must be overworked, stressed and disappointed. They have been given a herculean task under an impossible schedule and requirements. They are not to blame. CO and PDX are.

I know when I'm not done with something, I hate for people to see it; and I'm probably projecting that onto CO devs right now, but I imagine they feel the same way.

 

[Alvirian]

No editor for a couple of months. No more weekly patches in order to fix the bigger items. The game was not ready for final release. It should have been early access or else delayed until it was complete.

 

[Reid777]

The short summary of this situation for me is that it is very hard to express how disappointed I am with the release of CS2.

CO really build a lot of confidence in me when they released 3 awesome free updates for CS1. Completely unexpected. It felt like CO/Paradox really cared about community and long-time fans.

They got a lot of my confidence through dev diaries and dev insights were they have shown that they developers are truly dedicated to making the best city builder they could.

Then they simply flushed it all down the toilet, with absolutely terrible release and, what we have learned later, outright misinformation during pre-release and post-release. They were aware of performance issues long before release, as we have learned the content creators were strictly prohibited from discussing performance issues at all. They also must have know for a long time that getting modding platform will take them a long time, yet they were insisting that it will be released "days after game release", then it suddenly changed to "before end of year" , then to "unspecified first half of 2024", all during basically one week.

I really wanted to see those WoW articles as some kind of transparency, but at the moment it looks more and more like typical corporate damage control talk. The time for transparency was really before release, before Paradox/CO has taken players money. At this point, what would appropriate is a sincere apology and open offer of full refund to anyone who would like one. Instead we got CO explanation, that they believed that "game was ready for release". This is not fair treatment of either long time fans or new customers. This is just bad bossiness practice with very far fetched justification.

Even the content creators, who have good relations with CO, are more and more critical about CS2. They are actually going back to CS1 or considering playing completely different titles. It speaks a lot how bad this release was.

I am certain that eventually CO will be able to turn it around and properly polish the game. Although, considering their pace of work it will take them years, not months. Again, huge disappointment.

 

[Swordsman1219]

So, CO/Paradox lie to us again and sell us a bill of goods that are half-baked and wring their hands crying about how hard it is for them, when they've had years upon years to get this right. It's pathetic, really.

 

[BigYundol]

I really can't figure out, why you didn't start an official early access-launch... this game is still very unfinished on so many parts...

 

[sgplaysgames]

Last week I promised to give you an update on where we are with the modding of Cities: Skylines II. The Editor is in the works and we shared an updated version of it with the closed Modding Beta group for a feedback round just last Friday. The Editor currently includes only maps and support for code modding and we’re looking forward to getting those ready for an initial release. I’m calling it an initial release as we will be adding to the modding tools throughout the game's lifetime, just like we did with Cities: Skylines.

We do not have the asset import feature available yet, so the creators are currently unable to import their own assets into the game. After we have the import feature in place we’ll be running it through the Modding Beta group. When the asset part of the Editor is ready, we’ll have the Paradox Mods nicely populated with the Region pack assets that the asset creators have been working on. The assets are looking amazing, and I’m sure you’ll have a lot of fun choosing the ones most fitting to your cities! If you haven’t already, check out the Region Pack teaser here:

Our goal is to release the Editor as soon as possible, and we will keep you updated on the progress. We expect it will take a couple of months to get the Editor in a shape where we can release it, but we don’t have a concrete timeline yet as we don’t want to make promises we can’t keep. Once the Editor is out we will continue to work on it with your feedback and suggestions to help us prioritize the most wanted features and improvements. We’re very much looking forward to seeing your creations and mods too!

As an update on console, the game will have all the intended Editor features in place when the console versions are released, so you’ll be able to catch up to the PC players in no time. The Editor on console will be on par with the PC version in all but two features: code modding and asset importing as these are not possible within the console restrictions. However, you will be able to download user-created assets from Paradox Mods and create custom maps! The performance improvements we are currently working on also benefit the console version, and we’re actively working on the console versions so they will be ready for you in the first half of 2024.

In the last three weeks, we’ve had a very quick pace with the patches. There is one more of those landing soon, but after that, we’ll be focusing on bigger fixes that take longer to work on. The team is now focusing on LODs and improving GPU performances, and while geometric LODs are largely automated, there are a ton of tweaks and adjustments required. We are expecting a relevant performance boost with these asset fixes. The workload is significant and unfortunately, there is no silver bullet to improve the performance at once, instead, it requires several tasks completed before we are happy with it. This results in less frequent updates so we won’t have weekly patches going forward. Please check the future Word of the Weeks for more information, as I plan to keep writing one every week until further notice.

Before I go, here’s a link to last week’s patch notes if you want to check what it brought! Thanks to everyone who reported an issue and gave feedback. Your effort is most appreciated!

Sincerely,
Mariina

This is a really good reason why the game should have been delayed. It should've never been released on October 24.

 

[DerFremde]

On PC Cyberpunk was a bugged mess.

It wasn't. Reddit went nuts because it wasn't what the community hyped itself up to, the expectations and rumors what would be in the game were completely overblown. I played Cyberpunk on the PC from day 1 and while it did have bugs (what game doesn't these days) the mechanics and the core elements were perfectly fine! Something you definitely can't say about Cities Skylines 2.

 

[Jovzin]

Hello,
I do not want to be that guy. But I need a clarification.
I think you mentioned mods will be days after release and now I am reading months ?!
Could it be there are 2 things that will be released for modders ? One now, within days, as written before and another one within months, as written in this blog ?

 

[DerFremde]

Something that really bothers me @co_martsu is, that I keep seeing advertisements for the game everywhere. In Reddit, Twitter, on gaming portals etc. You keep actively selling a broken product, you keep selling promises, that weren't kept in the first place. All the beautiful words in here are in vain when you just keep lying elsewhere.

 

[Qliq34]

4 weeks ago: " First and foremost, our in-game editor is currently in its beta phase and will launch shortly after release. "

Well, nobody can defend your ethics anymore. Very disappointing. Looks like success got way over your head.

 

[Artax Nighteven]

Last week we released a patch to address some of the gameplay issues you have reported, and we're investigating several others as we're working our way through the issues that have been brought to our attention.

It took me mostly 20 hours to discover almost ALL the bugs on myself. And you are saying you developer still don't KNOW this bugs??
Insane... your game testers did a terrible job

 

[Fred214]

The game looks good. The road tools are good. But .. that's kinda it. It's rough around the edges, bugs everywhere, the simulation doesn't feel as deep as promised (which propably is because most things are not or only superficial explained). The performance is one problem, but not the biggest.
How is it possible that the game took so many steps back to Cities Skylines one?
Traffic with TMPE was way better than the traffic is now in the game. We don't need all new fancy shmancy overhauled game AI .. if it doesn't work.
Your statement is missing the most important stuff: bug fixes. Make the game work!

I am sorry to say this, since I was a big advocate for CO since Cities in Motion 1, but here I really question the management skills.
Game is unfinished, has bad performance, is ridden with bugs. The promised features get delayed and delayed. Now you hit the people that are the most important for your success at the head - modders. Again! (Remember Cities in Motion 2?)

Cities in Motion 1 - solid game, with mods it got great, long support from the community.
Cities in Motion 2 - mediocre game design, mods not possible, fast death
Cities Skylines 1 - solid game, with mods it got great, long support from the community.
Cities Skylines 2 - ... history repeats.

Edit:
I planned to buy myself a new computer for christmas. I planned to spend around 2500 Euro for that, just so I can play CS2 in the future, without performance problems, with lots of mods and assets. Now I propably will save my money, let's see how the game looks next year this time.

Meanwhile, play it through Geforce Now. Saves you lots of money, and performance is not a problem.

 

[Snailmus]

I think CO should refund me half of the prize and when they finish the game I will pay them this half back.

 

[Cpack]

Our goal is to release the Editor as soon as possible, and we will keep you updated on the progress. We expect it will take a couple of months to get the Editor in a shape where we can release it, but we don’t have a concrete timeline yet as we don’t want to make promises we can’t keep.

Oh no!!! Months..... I spend 30% of the time in C:S in editing my own maps......
Long time to wait to play the game for me

But anyway, keep up the work, everything looks promising, just a little bit "time stretched"

 

[Isinfier]

Appreciate the transparency from the team, however this being such a recurring trend across Paradox justifies my decision not to purchase your titles on release anymore. It does seem like you're being consistently shafted by poor decisions / blatant greed from management.

 

[Licenturion]

Seeing all the backlash here, steam and Reddit I wonder if we get a follow up on this post in the coming days or they will just let it fester for a whole week until the next WOTW4.

Also very bizarre communication because usually you try to offset bad news with good news. But this week it was mainly bad news and also no clear timeline of the things that are being worked when it comes to gameplay bugs

Also very strange they have to redo all the assets and LODS and only found this out after release. It seems a lot of Unity developers struggle with this engine and performance. I also play Fabledom (an actual early acces that is more polished than Skylines 2 made by 2 developers) and they also had performance issues, overheating cards and had someone from Unity help out and they also had to redo vegetation, sprites and assets to improve it. Luckily they are doing all this before the actual 1.0 release.

 

[[Delta ²k5]]

It seems a lot of Unity developers struggle with this engine and performance.

Unity is pretty user friendly to some extend but Unity also has "beta" features which sound handy and great but which are unsupported.

It would not surprised if such features led to such situation - devs implement them because they sound useful, something changes or breaks, they ask for support and Unity just says the feature is unsupported leading devs to make their own implementation of the feature in question.

 

[[Delta ²k5]]

Something that really bothers me @co_martsu is, that I keep seeing advertisements for the game everywhere. In Reddit, Twitter, on gaming portals etc. You keep actively selling a broken product, you keep selling promises, that weren't kept in the first place. All the beautiful words in here are in vain when you just keep lying elsewhere.

Wrong person, wrong place. CO is not marketing anything, it's Paradox:

Ask Paradox (almost) Anything Thread (no support/tech or code questions)

Hi people, As promised here's a thread where you get to ask us (almost) whatever you want. I write almost as some of you might want to ask questions you know we cant answer. Like: "When is CK2 coming?" or "Whats the next game you are making"...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Good luck.

It took me mostly 20 hours to discover almost ALL the bugs on myself. And you are saying you developer still don't KNOW this bugs??
Insane... your game testers did a terrible job

Apply as the better QA here:
→ jobs@colossalorder.com ←

 

[co_martsu]

Thanks for all the feedback and apologies for not having time yesterday to write answers to your questions! I see some already answered so I'll just write a summary that hopefully answers at least some of the concerns raised.

You have the right to feel disappointed for the Editor not being already available. We have no intention to delay its release more than necessary. The asset import feature (where a user imports an asset created in a 3D modeling software to the game) is severely delayed due to various technical issues related to it and given it's mid November now we have zero chance of getting it ready before the Christmas break. When it comes to the map editor we'll see if it can be released before the asset import is ready. Regardless of when the Editor is released it is planned to be supported and improved upon based on the feedback from the creators and modders using it. The delay is most unfortunate but we are doing our best to getting the Editor out as soon as possible.

Gameplay issues are being actively worked on and we've been also looking into some pathfinding errors. Some bugs take longer to fix than others and it would cause added stress to try and keep a specific cadence so at no point have we committed to one. Since we've had weekly patches thus far I found it best to warn that it's not to be expected in the future, with the sole purpose of trying to manage expectations. While the patch cadence is expected to be longer going forward it doesn't mean we have stopped working on bugfixes.

We are also working on the performance not only because it's necessary for the console release but also for PC platforms to allow the creation of huge cities. I'm sensing that most are actually able to play with acceptable performance level if it starts to feel like we should be focusing on the other things more, but we are internally not satisfied with the current situation and will keep working on improving the performance until we are.

I will keep bringing you news every week, hopefully good ones but we must be able to discuss setbacks as well, if more occur. For those wanting to leave the game behind, I fully understand and respect that and I hope you will find your way back again later in time. We're not going anywhere.

 

[Leyo07]

There are obviously a lot of bugs that require more than 10 hours of gameplay to appears. This is common in simulation games. You should have been aware of it, and yes the testing and beta testing has done most terrible job ever. First mistake, is to rely on youtubers for beta-testing. In most case, they don't go very deep into the game mechanics, and focus only on aesthetics. But for sure, they gonna advertize your game a lot before realease...

We don't know how much time has been dedicated to testing before beta-test... but i wouldn't be surprised that it could have been a plan to let tests and fixes workload to the customer... since the game will be moddable one day. Terrible mindset for sure, but so common nowadays when it comes to money .

No optimisation. No test. I don't think the decision-maker is a gamer.