CO Word of the Week #5

[∆tlαntic4]

Yes, I did get scolded by @co_avanya and I apologize to them too for causing extra headaches. I will have PR people check the next wow with a magnifying glass, I promise. I bet they are relieved I'm actually not on X (Twitter)!


All joking aside, there's a lot of things needing to be addressed. And the first course of action is taken very soon when a bugfixing patch is released.

@co_martsu , I want to express my heartfelt gratitude for patch 1.0.15f1 and the outstanding dedication demonstrated by you. Your consistent weekly communications and your commitment to engaging with the community in such a positive manner truly stand out. I also expressed myself badly in a recent post and I was not forgiven (laughs), that's part of it. I deeply appreciate your efforts, especially considering that you could have chosen not to provide updates, yet you faithfully keep us informed week after week. Thank you very much.

I'm genuinely thrilled with this update. It's truly remarkable to see how CO has addressed numerous issues.

As you prepare for a well-deserved vacation, is there a possibility for the community to receive one more update this month before the holiday?

 

[Iberian Inquisition]

In regards to the comments about missing information on how the simulation works, I just wanted to mention, that if you come across some great discussions on this, either here on the forum, Reddit, or really anywhere, we'd appreciate the heads-up. There's a LOT to dig into when it comes to how the simulation works, so it's important that we understand what information you're looking for - both for any potential deep dives we might do and what information is available in the game through notifications and info views.

Hi Avanya,

This is the information I personally have been digging in to and testing because of all of the "simulation is fake/broken" claims.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CitiesSkylines2/comments/186p373/_/kbdoirn

I continued testing after that post and confirmed that buying agents reserve the product when they select a destination. After all that testing, I found only 2 bugs. The cargo station, and that cargo disappears from the game if a buying agent doesn't pick it up from the seller before it despawns. Everything else is working correctly but people assume cargo is teleporting or being created out of thin air because they can't see what's happening without dedicating literal hours to testing. This was all made harder by the fact that without dev tools you can't access company info from a building, only an agent.

 

[DanielR80]

In regards to the comments about missing information on how the simulation works, I just wanted to mention, that if you come across some great discussions on this, either here on the forum, Reddit, or really anywhere, we'd appreciate the heads-up. There's a LOT to dig into when it comes to how the simulation works, so it's important that we understand what information you're looking for - both for any potential deep dives we might do and what information is available in the game through notifications and info views.

Are you blinded by routine or did you not play your own game?

 

[unmerged(524934)]

without dev tools you can't access company info from a building, only an agent.

This is one of my bugbears - the SIP only shows this info when you click on one of the agents (e.g. a semi) and then click the magnifying glass in the agent SIP to take you to its owner. A new SIP opens up which is different to the basic one you would get if you just clicked on the building.

Unless there's something going on under the hood which say only generates this additional info when you click on the agent, why not show it in the building's SIP - you could even use tabs to separate the general info SIP from this second "secret" SIP?

 

[MohawkWolfo98]

Hi Avanya,

This is the information I personally have been digging in to and testing because of all of the "simulation is fake/broken" claims.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CitiesSkylines2/comments/186p373/_/kbdoirn

I continued testing after that post and confirmed that buying agents reserve the product when they select a destination. After all that testing, I found only 2 bugs. The cargo station, and that cargo disappears from the game if a buying agent doesn't pick it up from the seller before it despawns. Everything else is working correctly but people assume cargo is teleporting or being created out of thin air because they can't see what's happening without dedicating literal hours to testing. This was all made harder by the fact that without dev tools you can't access company info from a building, only an agent.

Thanks for all this testing, it’s greatly appreciated. I’m glad this game is not fundamentally broken, just broken in many ways due to poor design choices. It’s something to work with.

These guardrails and failsafes are driving me bonkers: Why on earth is there is a guardrail in place that did not exist in CS1 to prevent traffic problems from destroying your city? Fixing traffic problems was one of the highlights of fixing CS1 or any other city to make it working.

Other design decisions like buying agents not reducing the stock when they enter/leave building and others like lower traffic as the city population increases is mind boggling.

 

[ifredn]

In regards to the comments about missing information on how the simulation works, I just wanted to mention, that if you come across some great discussions on this, either here on the forum, Reddit, or really anywhere, we'd appreciate the heads-up. There's a LOT to dig into when it comes to how the simulation works, so it's important that we understand what information you're looking for - both for any potential deep dives we might do and what information is available in the game through notifications and info views.

How does the production chain work and what are the "failsafe"-functions in there?

Like:

Ressources go to industry via truck, manufacturing stuff, brought to store xy via truck, if they dont need it its stored in the railway station storage, whatever. What are the thresholds, when is stuff being imported (no ressources for example) etc.

There must have been a concept somewhere

Edit: Thanks for the patch, of course.

 

[Iberian Inquisition]

Thanks for all this testing, it’s greatly appreciated. I’m glad this game is not fundamentally broken, just broken in many ways due to poor design choices. It’s something to work with.

These guardrails and failsafes are driving me bonkers: Why on earth is there is a guardrail in place that did not exist in CS1 to prevent traffic problems from destroying your city? Fixing traffic problems was one of the highlights of fixing CS1 or any other city to make it working.

Other design decisions like buying agents not reducing the stock when they enter/leave building and others like lower traffic as the city population increases is mind boggling.

Thank you . It actually makes sense to me that the stock is reserved at the start of the agent's journey. Businesses often do exactly that in the real world, and it reduces redundant pathfinding (get there, someone beat me to it, out of stock, calculate a new seller.) Sure customers wouldn't normally reserve inventory before walking to the corner store, but as I said...pathfinding.

I definitely agree that I would like to see the guardrails removed or able to be turned off. This does have to be accompanied by the necessary information and understanding of the system to be able to fix it.

 

[FunkyPanda36]

In regards to the comments about missing information on how the simulation works, I just wanted to mention, that if you come across some great discussions on this, either here on the forum, Reddit, or really anywhere, we'd appreciate the heads-up. There's a LOT to dig into when it comes to how the simulation works, so it's important that we understand what information you're looking for - both for any potential deep dives we might do and what information is available in the game through notifications and info views.

This is, to my knowledge, the biggest deep dive anywhere on it. Especially the last 20 pages or so when people started really digging into it. You'll also see some regularly chime in with questions and whatnot as well. https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-is-a-deception.1604434/page-36#post-29296691

 

[G315t]

In regards to the comments about missing information on how the simulation works, I just wanted to mention, that if you come across some great discussions on this, either here on the forum, Reddit, or really anywhere, we'd appreciate the heads-up. There's a LOT to dig into when it comes to how the simulation works, so it's important that we understand what information you're looking for - both for any potential deep dives we might do and what information is available in the game through notifications and info views.

Right now I'm doing a test of several things and for example:

I try to understand how it is possible that my industry is still producing, one whole ingame year, after I deleted every outside connection, and every storage building in the city. Of course in a normal play I would not do this, but for testing and understanding how things work its a good setting.

From what I see so far is that companies that can not produce anymore, because they run out of reserves, do not get abandoned as I would expect, but instead they get replaced by another company.
This new companies apperantly spawn in with (some) ressources that they need to produce goods. Is this correct?

Because If we talk about missing information. The company that runs out of ressources should not simply be replaced without the player getting any indicator.
Instead the game should show us, that the company can not get ressources with a "no ressources" symbol. Because it can have many reasons why a company can't get the ressources.

And if my conclusion of my test is true, then maybe the bug report for the special factories (like the paper factory) is not a bug at all, but the same system, that is replacing the company in the factory, because it runs out of ressources. (because they use a huge amount of ressources)

------------------------

And another thing. Is the outside connection Infoview, that shows imports and exports.

What exactly does this infoview show, how does it calculate the wares it shows in there?
Because it is not wares, that are actualy exported or imported physicaly in the city as that is impossible, there are no connections.

Instead from my tests it seems to be based on the demand / overproduction values in the production overview somehow.
Example: I have a huge defizit in food and therefore it shows me 22% of my total sum of Imports would be food (if there would be any imports.) Right?

Because things like that are not only confusing but probaply the reason why there are those "simulation is fake" threads. We do not understand what is presented to us. This particular Infoview could maybe bette rif it gets an additional value of actualy imported/exported tons.

 

[buda atum]

I was not expecting this as "deep and realistic simulation", not after 7500 hours in CS.

 

[shiiroo26]

It was the 2 minutes it took for my framerate in the menu to stabilize at 2 FPS on an i9 with 32GB RAM and an RTX 4070.

Damn...meanwhile it took me 2 minutes to adjust graphic settings and run the game with a decent framerate since launch on my old i5 and GTX1070. And performance got even better after the first patch a week later. I don't know where you got those "recommended settings" from and what are you waiting for exactly but I suggest doing some research if you actually want to sort your issues out because the game is very much playable in terms of performance and has been for over a month.

 

[Iberian Inquisition]

I was not expecting this as "deep and realistic simulation", not after 7500 hours in CS.

While generally pretty good, just be aware that not all of the findings in that video are accurate, and the pinned comment changes some of the conclusions.

 

[Kedryn]

I was not expecting this as "deep and realistic simulation", not after 7500 hours in CS.

Weird.

Im-/Export bug, hints, symptoms and causes - "All resource management in the game is a deception."

TLDR: If you expect the in-game economy simulation to include features like supply chains, exports, and imports of goods, and resource processing, it doesn't. Here are the main issues: First Part: Your city doesn't generate a 'demand' for goods...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[curry684]

Damn...meanwhile it took me 2 minutes to adjust graphic settings and run the game with a decent framerate since launch on my old i5 and GTX1070. And performance got even better after the first patch a week later. I don't know where you got those "recommended settings" from and what are you waiting for exactly but I suggest doing some research if you actually want to sort your issues out because the game is very much playable in terms of performance and has been for over a month.

When I tried on November 9th I applied the recommended settings posted by CO just after release. I got about 25FPS on an empty grass field. 2880x1800. Low settings. Nothing built beside the starting road. A big green square, at 99% GPU load and my fans blowing full power.

It's not unplayable. It is most certainly unacceptable on a 3 months old 3600 euro laptop. Which runs Diablo 4 at 90FPS native 2880x1800 resolution at ultra preset. Satisfactory (UE5) about 70FPS native resolution ultra preset... with Lumen enabled. Cyberpunk benchmark gets about 45FPS at native resolution ultra preset, raytracing enabled.

You are right, CS2 is not unplayable anymore, as it can now render a big green square at 25FPS. Which is technically enough for a city builder. And a laughable joke to release as a finished product. It has no occlusion culling or LoD for f*** sake. Quake had both in the previous century.

I am not hating on CO. I'm just patiently waiting for them to finish the game. My game time counter will remain at 29 minutes until a reputable source confirms I can get a playable framerate at high settings.

 

[TripleAgent]

I am proud for the work done and even if we did run out of time I know the the team and myself are working our hardest to improve game so the experience wouldn't be hindered by the issues.

I understand this, but the issue is that this contradicts earlier communications. From November 1:

The decision to release the game on PC on the announced date was made based on careful consideration. The decision was influenced by us having confidence in the gameplay, having data that the game is running well enough on a variety of hardware and not wanting to disappoint the players waiting so eagerly to play the game. We can debate if this was the right call, but does it make any difference now after the game is out?

CO Word of the Week #1

Hi Everyone, welcome to our little weekly update, CO Word of the Week, where we share what Colossal Order is doing right now, and what you can expect for Cities: Skylines II as a result. CO Word of the Week originally ran from March 2016 until...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

How did CO run out of time if you controlled the decision on when release would be appropriate? Did CO run out of time with a firm deadline and released the game in the state it did, or did CO believe that the game was good to be released in that state?

I ask this because again it goes to the expectations that CO cultivates through its communications and marketing campaign, which I think is a large part of why people are upset; during the days before and after release, we were told that performance might be touch and go in the beginning due to optimization issues, but that the game is otherwise in great shape and that mod support will be out in a matter of days. But the release had such major issues with the gameplay and simulation itself that many believe it is fundamentally broken (I'm not qualified to answer that, but based on my experience with the game the simulation can function at a glance but when you get into the details it begins to break down, such as the export/mail issues, etc.). Then two to three weeks later we are told that CO actually ran out of time (implying that you weren't satisfied with the result but released it under pressure) and there's a ton of work that still needs to be done.

In an alternate reality, CO says in September/Early October that they aren't happy with the state of the game's performance and simulation. You say that because of that, we're laser focusing on those areas rather than mod tools, and will be releasing the game in Early Access on the scheduled date for those that have purchased it, and a full launch will happen in early 2024 when the issues have been ironed out. That would at least put expectations at a level that the game, in its current state, could more easily fulfill.

Would everyone be happy with that? No, some folks probably would have refunded their preorder to wait and see. But you would at least be honest with your customers and community about the state of the game and give them an opportunity to make an informed decision then rather than three to five weeks after launch. But as it stands, I think a lot of us feel that the communications we received from CO around launch were inaccurate at best and misleading as worst, and that's coloring a lot of the response here.

 

[humorpalanta]

What I don't understand: How are jobs created?
Because even if I don't zone new industry, commercial or office zones, thousands of jobs are being created continously and I just cannot fill up the workplaces with people... HOW?

 

[G315t]

What I don't understand: How are jobs created?
Because even if I don't zone new industry, commercial or office zones, thousands of jobs are being created continously and I just cannot fill up the workplaces with people... HOW?

You probaply overzoned workplaces in the first place. And then there is the fact that companies that earn money will invest in leveling up and hiring more people. So a company that starts with lets say 8 available jobs for low educated persons later may have for example 30 jobs and also hire high educated persons too. It will stop at one point and you then will need to zone more industry, commercial and or offices.

 

[deyaz]

The best option to not waste 1000s of hours of devs and also if there is a will of the modding community, you might want to consider having a Github account where people can publicly commit their changes. This could speed things up a lot and won't trigger any further cost. Unfortunately management did a good job at initiating a shitstorm that it apparantly is not able to control properly. And just to be clear, I am really happy I haven't bought this game and I am not planning to do so. It is ridiculous what CO delivers here.

 

[philbert81]

My Cims leave their dog at the cemetery . After a while there are 100 dogs waiting at the cemetery for their owners, while the owners are at home chilling.

For me, it is not just at the cemetery, also noticed it for the Train Station.

 

[jbear0000]

Thanks for all the feedback. When it comes to the gameplay and simulation we set goals for the game and we have reached those goals.
Surely there are issues that we're looking into and fixing bugs, but the overall gameplay experience is what we aimed for. Cities: Skylines II is the better game compared to the first one. If you dislike the simulation, this game just might not be for you. If there is a bug that ruins it for you there's a good chance it's fixed sometime in the future. Games are a subjective experience and it is impossible to please everyone. There's a bugfixing patch on its way soon however, so hopefully we'll be able to resolve at least some of the issues that may be a deal breaker for some. We thank you for your patience!

For clarity the above is for the simulation and gameplay. The performance is not where we want it to be and we are hard at work to improve it. This is also the reason the consoles were delayed. The modding support is an important part of a Colossal Order game, so it will also be rolling out as soon as possible.
We are disappointed we couldn't make these aspects of the game ready for you on time, but we refuse to give up. The missing features and platforms will be available in the upcoming months.

You said this would be the most realistic city building game ever created. What did you give us that is an improvement upon the first game? Lets see:

We can follow Cims life path - It is extremely boring, they sit at home all of the time, their appearance changes constantly and they are so ugly

Mail service - Cool I guess, once you fix it, maybe you already did, I haven't played for a few weeks, but it really in't a big deal or that interesting as a new game system.

Homeless people - Who we can't even track or help in anyway. The only way to find out who is homeless is looking at the parks, give us homeless shelters, assistance programs, soup kitchens and make the welfare office help these people and keep track of them.

Internet service - Not a big deal really, we just place antennas around the city

Better roads - I will say this is an improvement, but they are so clunky without mods, why do you consider a game that heavily relies on mods to fix your clunky things to be complete and acceptable?

Highly detailed cims - Who are horribly ugly. It would have been better if you kept the less detailed people from CS1. If you wanted highly detailed Cims then you should have hired an artist to create ones that actually look good instead of the goblins you bought as middleware or whatever.

Jaywalking - I remember this being talked about in the dev preview videos, oh boy, isn't this a fun idea?? Let's add some real life unpredictable behavior into the game! Whoopie!!! Yeah, if that only happened very seldomly it might be fine, but they jaywalk all of the time! I remove crosswalks and add pedestrian paths either as elevated walkways or tunnels and they still cross where I removed the crosswalks and cause massive traffic issues. Thankfully modders are already making mods and have given us a way to fix that nonsense.

Upgradeable buildings - Yeah, cool I guess, but with over $500M in my budget I just fully upgrade everything as soon as I build it now. It doesn't really make them interesting or unique, it just means we need to save space for the additions.

And beyond that there are so many systems in the game that are so broken and unbalanced. My city has about 130K people, there are like 30K in elementary school and that means I need a ton of schools. That many of the same buildings that all look totally identical looks terrible. There are people posting issues on Reddit all of the time, issues that seem to be ignored. The water physics are awful compared to the first game, the hydroelectric plant never works right. Trying to create bus lines and such is so extremely painful and difficult now compared to the first game. The whole tracking where people are going thing we had in the first game by seeing the path arrow things on roads is gone and it was so helpful.

Am I missing any other big new features that were added? Maybe, but to be honest with you, this doesn't live up to the hype. You made it sounds so much better in all of the dev videos and things that you put out before releasing the game. We expected bugs and performance issues, but making game systems that feel half baked and leaving them there while telling us that "If you dislike the simulation, this game just might not be for you" is shameful and Really???? REALLY!!!!!???? Come on CO, what an awful thing to say about your playerbase, you know, all of us who looked forwards to this game for years before it was even announced, those of us who keep you in business, those of us who you want to buy your expansion packs. This is not yet better than the first game.

All of that said, I'm still having a lot of fun with it and even if you don't fix the game as you should the modders are doing it for you. I'm looking forwards to when mods really start coming out because that is when this game will truly get fixed and balanced correctly.